Well for main healing without relying on offhealing by the shadow priest it would be really better to respecc for heroics.
4x points to holy increase your HPS, HPS and you can stand longer.
+5% to all holyspells crits
+11% to holy light crits
1 free crit every 2 minutes = 7k hp heal & some mana for free
light's grace for real hurting mobs, getting your casting speed of holy light down to 2.0 secons for a far increase of hps
holy guidance for some extra +heal, over 100 allmost with every gear
devine illumination with a 3 minutes timer but combined with light's grace your are able to push 7 holy lights for 50% of mana cost during the duration of 15 seconds. should be enough for every pike.
as a main healer, there is allmost nothing in the prot tree beyond 20 points for imp concentration aura (more a pvp thingy) and kings you have to worry about, but only imp devine shield
As a 17/0/44 Ret/Holy spec, I've MH'd Heroic Crypts, BF, Underbog, and Sethekk Halls. (All with S-Priests as backup healers)
I'd say it should be possible for her, especially if she picks up Illumination. (I don't have it, but it makes a pretty huge difference to healing longevity)
The Heroics I've seen reward groups for heavily CCing. (fear/sheep/MC the mobs down to one actively fighting tank at any one time) With level appropriate gear, single target healing should be no problem most of the time for a 20 point Holy spec. (And you have the priest as backup for some of the nastier mob/pulls)
For "ideal" MHing, sure, a heavier Holy spec would give you a greater margin of error, but it doesn't hurt too much to try it out first and experiment a bit.
Good to know Fiola, thanks. She has Illumination, which from my reading is one of the strongest talents in the Holy tree. As I said, I think we're just going to have to get in there and see what happens, but from my experience so far tells me that we'll probably be fine even on the 5 elite pulls (sap one, MC a caster so they kill it, tank then picks up one, fear another, cripple kite the last).
Originally Posted by Fiola
As a 17/0/44 Ret/Holy spec, I've MH'd Heroic Crypts, BF, Underbog, and Sethekk Halls. (All with S-Priests as backup healers)
Just to get a better understanding of things, what kind of healing gear did you have for those runs? Could you give me a ballpark of what your stats were like?
Just to get a better understanding of things, what kind of healing gear did you have for those runs? Could you give me a ballpark of what your stats were like?
BoLight on the MT, roughly 800~900 +healing, as much mp5 as I could get - around 70~80 unbuffed. I also have the FoL and HL +healing librams. (So almost 1k effective +heal, in addition to the BoL bonus) http://www.thottbott.com/i25644 http://www.thottbott.com/i28296
Generally could handle most pulls with half of my mana pool left, (S-Priest helped, of course). With pots and Illumination, your paladin should have more than enough mana for the majority of situations. All the rest is timing. (Stunning to buy time for heals is invaluable; taunting mobs at ranged with Righteous Defense can also be used to save people who won't survive a single hit)
If you have a shadow priest, most heroics should be no problem healing with almost any spec as long as you have decent gear (1kish healing). If you don't and you are solo healing, they will be very difficult to impossible without Light's Grace. The AE gap heals and extra mana are the biggest difference-makers.
I'm looking for a build that allows me to MT all the TBC 5-mans, solo effectively, and heal if necessary. I'm in a very small guild with a handlful of friends and we need someone who can both heal and tank when needed. I would probably be tanking 70% of the time and healing 30% of the time, and probably half that healing would be off-healing with a Shaman.
After looking at the gear available to me at 70, I've come up with the following based on the fact that I can pick up a good +healing weapon and offhand, and a separate sword+board for tanking.
In other words, I'm relying on gear to make up the healing that I lack in talents. Please let me know if this seems reasonable:
The tanking talents are obvious, I assume. I have one-handed weapon spec right now, but I figure I'll be able to drop it without too much impact at 70.
After the first 13 points in Holy, there's no real point in getting more healing efficiency (that I can see) until you can spend 21 points. So I put an extra 5 points into fear resist for tanking and PvP, 2 points in Imp BoW to make up for lack of other efficiency talents, and the last point in AM because it's cool?
Would I be better off dropping the Ret talents (including Deflection) and going with a 30/31 build for what I want to do?
Unless you're grouping with a second Paladin, you'll still probably get more mileage out of 3 points in Illumination than 2 in ImpBoW simply because you'll have Kings on when tanking and the rest of your group isn't going to notice a huge difference from the extra 8.5 mp/5.
You might want to take a look at a 20/41 build, which is what I'd go back to if I was tanking instances. The extra threat from Avenger's more than makes up for the loss of Improved Judgment and the mitigation difference is not going to be drastic enough that you'll cause wipes for not having Deflection, especially if you pick up Anticipation (always worth it and better than Toughness imo) and Improved HoJ on your way down the rest of the tree. I wasn't very keen on it initially but having HoJ on a 45 second cooldown is really nice for control and extra mitigation at the start of tough pulls. Precision is less important for you than for a warrior since a large chunk of your threat is from spell damage that doesn't miss (Consecrate, JoR). Ardent Defender can occasionally get leapfrogged but it really makes a big difference, I started dying a lot more once I dropped it simply because I'd gotten used to living longer.
My experience from heroics is that most (harder) pulls aren't very big on longetivity, at least the way we usually do it. There's no reason to stand and tank something you can kite for the same end effect. When we've used a modestly geared 41/20 paladin (3shotted by harder hitting BF trash) as MT I've just overhealed with HL spam and had a drink between pulls. Warriors/Druids can't tank at 10 yards like Paladins can but you can still get an overall similar effect. You can't do this everywhere but it's given decently for us, as long as people are alert.
Basically, the important survival tanking talents (With the exception of Ardent Defender), and the basics of healing.
+ Has basically all mitigation talents a Paladin can get (Just lacking 1 point of deflection and Ardent Defender; as well as Spell Warding)
+ Reckoning is included as well.
+ Illumination and Divine Favor
- No pulling abilities. (Partially made up for by the fact that I'm a Blood Elf so can always Mana Tap stuff with mana)
- Possibly too Jack of all Trades.
It could work, or it could be a failure. Time will tell.
buff /bʌf/ Pronunciation[buhf]
–verb (used with object)
- to reduce or deaden the force of
That is a very interesting build, its really a toss up of course for the single extra point in holy (imp LoH vs. resist fear etc) as neither will be that much a factor in either roll of tanking or healing since they are so minimal.
Which is a shame since there isnt another worthwhile place to put it.
Last edited by Thomase : 03/20/07 at 3:09 PM.
Reason: Clarification
So what gear have people been buying from the arenas?
I'm sitting on over 2k points and I'm not sure what to buy. The Healing armor is nice, but not really much of an upgrade over PvE gear I either have or will get in the near future. I've been tempted to pick up the Ret set or a weapon simply because I won't be able to get anything like those in PvE most likely, but yet it's not like I'll be using them in 5v5s.
What have other people bought?
If you haven't gotten the healing gloves yet, do so with all haste. They are by FAR the best gloves in the game for healing if the majority of your spellcasting is FoL (which mine usually is).
As previously promised I passed this on to the developers. I took the liberty of summarising the thread; basically saying that what you are after is gear with +Stamina, +Defense and +Spell damage, and that you are not very keen on +Intelligence and MP5 (Youngblood emphasised the need for more HP and damage mitigation instead).
The devs have read this and thought it sounded fair enough. Paladin tanking gear is going to be more geared towards tanking/hp so this concern should be addressed in the next content patch.
So, again, thank you for compiling this and helping me passing your concerns on to the devs.
That is a very interesting build, its really a toss up of course for the single extra point in holy (imp LoH vs. resist fear etc) as neither will be that much a factor in either roll of tanking or healing since they are so minimal.
Which is a shame since there isnt another worthwhile place to put it.
Just to follow up on it, I've specced it now. Only difference from the build I posted is that I took two less points in Shield Specialization for two points in Spell Warding.
It worked good for tanking the trash to Netherspite and Netherspite himself (Whom we killed for the third time this week, silly dragon keeps respawning); and was also fine in a normal Arcatraz run. Luckily I'd kept Linken's Boomerang around, which covers any pulls I might need to do in which there are no mana users (Ah, the joy of being a Blood Elf), demons or undead. Or which can't be safely body pulled. Conveniently enough a macro that uses the boomerang and immediately equips a different trinket works perfectly, so I'm not having to sacrifice the stats of a trinket slot.
For tanking the build has pretty much the survivability of a pure tanking build; though I do miss Ardent Defender, my initial threat build up takes a bit longer without Avenger's Shield however. I haven't had a chance to properly try it out for healing yet, as tonight we were low on DPS, so the Feral Druid we had along was a kitty for the whole run.
Last edited by Chicken : 03/20/07 at 7:43 PM.
buff /bʌf/ Pronunciation[buhf]
–verb (used with object)
- to reduce or deaden the force of
It actually increases both melee and spell crit. If you figure a judgement every 8 seconds, this is up 5/8 of the time, and gives 2.4% crit. I'm sort of hankering to spec ret for a day or two on a weekend once I get my gladiator sword next week (going to be 23 short :|)to try this out. This seems to be the only new DPS libram but is a pretty huge boost over the level 60 ones.
It actually increases both melee and spell crit. If you figure a judgement every 8 seconds, this is up 5/8 of the time, and gives 2.4% crit. I'm sort of hankering to spec ret for a day or two on a weekend once I get my gladiator sword next week (going to be 23 short :|)to try this out. This seems to be the only new DPS libram but is a pretty huge boost over the level 60 ones.
Interested in it, but haven't run Heroic BF lately.
If you time your judgements with your swings, you would have the buff on 2 out of 3 swings. (Worst case is 1 out of 3 swings, assuming a slow 2h; on average it will cover 5/8 swings if you just judge while CD is up) So it'd be like 1.6% crit? (And if it buffs spell crit... can be used with illumination!)
It actually increases both melee and spell crit. If you figure a judgement every 8 seconds, this is up 5/8 of the time, and gives 2.4% crit. I'm sort of hankering to spec ret for a day or two on a weekend once I get my gladiator sword next week (going to be 23 short :|)to try this out. This seems to be the only new DPS libram but is a pretty huge boost over the level 60 ones.
If used correctly. (Judge right before swing leeway depends on slowness, you have 1.2 seconds on a 3.8 speed, and you can get 2 swings in.
Probably the best "relic slot" item in terms of effectiveness.
I went retribution after leaving my arena team since I can't play enough with em, its quite a bit of fun. Once you get the right gear (max hit) and have enough AP/crt you do excellent damage. I am swapping out all the mail and the like in my armory profile with Glad stuff, and hopefully T4 shoulders/Helm since they are both very very nice peaces (hit/stats). I have the points for a ton of Glad gear from my previous 5s team, be fairly nice to test it all out at once. Let me know how your situation goes.
As someone fairly new to Paladin-ing, I'm wondering... how often does a Paladin in a healing role find time to keep a Judgement on the mob? Back in the days of easy-mode alliance whinging, people always cited JoW as a massive mana regen mechanic for caster classes... but when I'm healing I find it tough to find time to run in to the mob and judge/whack every 20 seconds.
Should I make more of an effort to keep Judgements up, or just smack them on the mob whenever I can take a few seconds off healing to run in?
It depends on the mob. Also, that whining came from the fact that Judgment of Wisdom and Light used to have a talent that added 30 seconds to their (then 10s) duration. In the paladin revamp it was replaced with the +2/4/6% holy light crit talent. It was substantially easier to keep a 40s JoW up than a 20s one. Also, the refresh bug where only hits in the first 10s of the judgment refresh it makes for fun times too.
The rule of thumb I use is that any fight where offensive casters are actually going out of mana, make sure to keep JoW up. It's not that hard, just a pain - whenever the tank is at full hp, pop seal of wisdom and inch into judgment range, then judge after your next heal. But it's really not necessary on most stuff - the only bosses where I make a true effort for 100% uptime are nightbane and morogrim.
It depends on the mob. Also, that whining came from the fact that Judgment of Wisdom and Light used to have a talent that added 30 seconds to their (then 10s) duration. In the paladin revamp it was replaced with the +2/4/6% holy light crit talent. It was substantially easier to keep a 40s JoW up than a 20s one. Also, the refresh bug where only hits in the first 10s of the judgment refresh it makes for fun times too.
The rule of thumb I use is that any fight where offensive casters are actually going out of mana, make sure to keep JoW up. It's not that hard, just a pain - whenever the tank is at full hp, pop seal of wisdom and inch into judgment range, then judge after your next heal. But it's really not necessary on most stuff - the only bosses where I make a true effort for 100% uptime are nightbane and morogrim.
Judgements were 30 seconds before the paladin patch, and did not refresh. You had to re-judge every 30 seconds, and judgement was on a 15 second CD - it could also be resisted. There was a talent to increase JoL's duration by 30 seconds.
The paladin patch lowered all judgement debuffs to a 10 second duration, but also added a talent in deep Holy that increased the duration of JoL/JoW by 10/20/30 seconds. (First point made the biggest difference)
In the 2.0 patch, all judgement debuff durations were increased to 20 seconds, and that increased judgement duration talent was replaced with the +6% HL crit talent.
The benefits of JoW/JoL were a no-brainer in 40 man raids, especially since your individual healing output rarely was essential. In a 10 man raid though, you'd want there to be enough casters attacking the debuffed target to make it worth your time, especially if you're a MH.
SoW + Judgement is roughly 400 mana. JoW procs for 74, 50% proc rate. (http://www.thottbott.com/s27164) It takes 6 procs to break even, and with a 50% chance to proc, we'd want 12 spell hits over 20 seconds. I'll plead ignorance on caster spell cycles, but it seems 2 casters who are actively attacking that target should hit that break even point. Having 3+ casters and time to refresh the judgement will boost your return even more.
As I'm prot, on encounters where I'm not tanking, I'm typically keeping JoW up. Depending on the fight I can keep it up with melee swings which not only keeps it up on the mob, it also helps my mana issues.
Typically it's not a chore for me to heal with autoattack on. I get swings in between casts which refresh it, chronometer lets me know the duration on it.
Fights like nightbane/prince I can keep it up through melee (until p3 prince). Fights like maiden or curator I need to watch the timer and rejudge. We're often range DPS heavy in our raids, so keeping JoW up on bosses is pretty much a no-brainer.
Basically, the important survival tanking talents (With the exception of Ardent Defender), and the basics of healing.
+ Has basically all mitigation talents a Paladin can get (Just lacking 1 point of deflection and Ardent Defender; as well as Spell Warding)
+ Reckoning is included as well.
+ Illumination and Divine Favor
- No pulling abilities. (Partially made up for by the fact that I'm a Blood Elf so can always Mana Tap stuff with mana)
- Possibly too Jack of all Trades.
It could work, or it could be a failure. Time will tell.
That's actually very similar to the build I specced when I first dinged 70 - I no-lifed it for the first week. I found it to be very solid in both healing for the early undergeared PUGs of the level 70 instances and in tanking group quests/mid-60s Auchindoun instances for guildies. The only notable difference in my build was having Imp Judgement for tanking.
Nice catch on noting that the libram buffs spell crit. I'd thought I'd seen everything that could drop in BF after 7 runs now, barring the one item that I actually want, but it looks like there's another good one eluding me. Figures.
I’m still leveling my reroll paladin and I’m protection spec out of necessity for the guild. I was wondering, however, about the use of Seal of Blood for threat generation. From what I understand, Seal of Blood doesn’t benefit from +damage/healing, and it’s effect is based entirely off of weapon dps. Granted my experience and gear is limited, but I’ve found that I hold aggro much better than with Seal of Righteousness. In fact, I’ve held aggro against level 70 dpsers at my current level 66 using SoB over SoR.
My main question is that since SoB doesn’t benefit from +dmg/heal, should I get the best warrior tank weapon I can find, or does having a good +dmg/heal sword make the aggro generation from SoR superior? But I would also assume that a good +dmg/heal sword benefits Holy Shield and Consecration, which would subsequently increase threat. Also to note, SoB can crit on regular swings, but it can also be dodged/parried/missed.
03/18/07, 6:53 PM
Let me know how your situation goes.
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