Valen

Silly raiding without enhancement shamans in my opinion.

 

Judia

Not really.
Enchancment shamans provide additional dps to the following classess:
Rogues, DPS warriors, DPS druids, themselves.

Elemental shamans add dps to the following classess:
Mages, Warlocks, Shadow priests, Moonkin Druids, Themselves.

In terms of their raid buffing potential it is a case of comparing:
10% AP to your rogues and tanking warriors.
3% hit, 3% crit to ALL your magic DPS.

Further, Bloodrage also helps magic DPS more than melee DPS more, because it only affects the white DPS of rogues, while mages, locks, moonkin, and shaman use less instants. So I would say that the elemental shaman comes out ahead unless his personal DPS was WAY behind the enhancements DPS.
Also, the Resto shaman can still drop windfury and SoE totems, but not totem of wrath. So an enhancement shaman is more readily replaceable in that sense.

 

Valen

Can't compare it like that really.

First enhacement shamans bring improved GoA and WF to raids as well. Second, we can't just count the classes like that. Both will serve 4 group members and generally shaman melee buffs seems to scale much better for melee than ranged. Also we will not put a prot warrior with rogues when we can have a fury warrior or arms warrior that yields another 4% increase to group.

Regarding bloodrage only affecting white damage, it's not always true. Haste will yield more energy for rogues with Combat Potency up and more rage for warrios obviously.

 

Judia

Read my ideal team.
I didnt have any DPS warriors, no room for one, though you could drop a rogue to take one.
But you still have less melee classess than ranged DPS classess. Unless you have a group of 3 rogues and a warrior, the shamanistic rage will affect less people than Totem of fury. And in that group you lose TSA on your melee DPS, which is worth more than shamanistic rage.

You cant count the effects of iGoA and iWF in that way either, because you cant have both up at once.
So really at any given time they only provide iGoA OR iWF, plus shamaistic rage; which you are then comparing to Totem of Fury. I would say that 7-8% more DPS from 5 casters is a slightly larger improvement than a small AP gain from iWF, and a 7-8% AP gain from unleashed rage on 4 melee.

In either case both an enhancement and an elemental shaman bring a bigger DPS boost with the group buffs than a paladin does, and greater individual DPS. Which is kinda my point rather than debating shaman talent builds.

Edit:
Bloodrage wont help fury warriors in that way, because of the haste effects on rage gain.

 

Valen

Well guess it depends how you look at it.

We will not have more than 1 shadow priest because aside from very long fights the mana gain isn't that desired (even if it remains in current form), compared to a full holy priest. 1 priest can keep misery up for the rest of the raid.

I mentioned GoA and WF because i can imagine one being prefered above the other in different situations (2 mutilate rogues with poison talents may want GoA - Combat rogues may want WF).

The dream melee dps group for me seems like this:

1st group:
Rogue
Rogue
Hunter (TS [and imp mark])
Arms or fury warrior
Enhacement shaman

2nd Group:
Rogue (if you have 3)
Warrior
Feral druid for mangle.


Granted i don't have solid numbers for 70 yet, but imp. GoA/WF + 10% AP on melee will beat 3% extra hit and crit on casters for sure, especially when 1-2 of them use DoTs and can't use the crit at all.


PS: Tree of life is changed. There is no reason to put all the healers together like that anymore.

 

Judia

It doesnt work like that.
A reso shaman can drop WF and SoE. So you are only looking at the small bonuses from iSoE, iWF talents and 7-8% AP on melee (if we say unleashed rage will be up 75-85% of the time). A resto shaman cannot drop totem of Wrath.

I stuck the healers together because they dont add anything to DPS groups.

 

Valen

I didn't claim that resto shamans can drop ToW. I debate the desirability of full magic dps groups compared to full melee dps groups, and therefor the viability of enhancement shaman compared to elemental shaman. There will be 5 common buffs; BoM, BoK, battleshout, imp. HM and TS and they scale extremly good with the bonuses you gain from having an enhancement shaman. If i was the raid leader i wouldn't lose that bonus for 3% more crit/hit on casters (which is kinda meh if you got 2-3 aff. warlocks)



Well i gonna stop derailing this thread. Dream setups will never work in reality anyways :)

 

Judia

Pet hate because a poster on our boards has not learnt in 2 years.
Malee is not a word, the word you are looking for is melee.

Secondly,
YOU CAN BUILD A MELEE GROUP WITHOUT A SHAMAN, ALLIANCE DO THIS ALL THE TIME.
Just because you dont take an enhancement shaman, doesnt imply you havent set up your groups to maximize melee dps with TSA, battle shout and windury totem. Your points are spurious and mute. Look at the groups I built, they match your group with the sole difference I used a resto shaman instead of an enhancement shaman; the only differences are the small AP bonus from iSoE, iWF and unleashed rage. I dont know what you mean when you say BoK/BoM/BS/TSA scale.. they clearly dont scale at all whatever type of shaman you put in a group except possibly BoK depending on how it interacts with shamanistic rage. Further, you can not interchange an elemental and restoration shaman in this way.

Anyway this is not the thread to debate the realtive merits of shaman specs. Suffice to say that on paper both appear to provide more utility and DPS/healing than replacing said shaman with a paladin.

 

suicuique

I'm lost here. Care to elaborate?

 

Judia

The last I read, when you are affected by a haste effect (such as flurry) your HASTED weapon speed (rather than your base) is used to calculate rage gain. In essence, bloodlust wont make you generate rage any faster because your increased attack rate will be mitigated by lower rage per hit due to faster attack speed.

This might have been changed.

 

Valen

:)
I'm aware how to spell melee; it was a small typo. /gasp


Except those are not small differences. You still don't realize that 10% more AP when full buffed is more dps than 3% more crit/hit on casters. Especially when more than half of those casters gain nothing from the crit bonus. unleashed rage *scales* the shitload of melee buffs available in this game because it's based on %AP, hence scaling the rest of AP buffs (Someone correct me if i am wrong there please). iGoA or iWF are not minor buffs, especially in a full melee group.

Anyways, i'm sure someone will come up with exact numbers soon.

EDIT: unleashed rage even.

 

Judia

No because you are comparing an unbuffed group with a buffed group.
Assuming that both your groups have full buffs, then the difference between having a resto shaman and an enhancement shaman is:
- Small AP bonus from iWF and iSoE
- 7-9% AP from unleashed rage

Which is what Ive been sayign all along.
It isnt xyz% AP because you have to add on XYZ, its 8-9% AP whatever buffs you use, assuming that you have the same buffs in both cases.

8-9% Ap is slightly less than 8-9% damage, it is probably around 7% dps.
3% hit and 3% crit is slightly more than 6% damage, its probably about 7% dps (depending on your class).

So actually they are alot closer than you are giving them credit for.
What you MEAN is that 7% increase in melee dps might be a larger increase in ABSOLUTE dps than a 7% increase in caster dps.

The answer to that is.. depends on the fight. Against patchwerk, sure.
On any mobile fight the increase to ranged dps is probably slightly larger if just because people arent moving out of totem range.

 

Retta

At 70 I would like my paladin to be a sort of healer/tank hybrid (healing the majority of the time and step into a tanking role when needed) would this linked build be any good: http://www.wowhead.com/?talent-bc=sVxuMxzhxZVGtI00zgz ?

Although leveling up I am tempted to go 21 holy (for DF) and the rest in ret, maybe shifting points out of Vengeance into Sanctified Judgement and Improved Sanctity Aura.

 

◊ Cathela

At this point, with very little of the raid content explored, you can pretty much theorycraft any class into uselessness if you try hard enough. I think it's way too early to start worrying about who's going to have a place in raids.

Besides, the poster above is correct: Idealized group setups never work out anyway.

My comrades are my weapons, and I am their shield.

 

Guybrush

Mana tide totem gives you a total of 24% of your mana back every 5 mins, BoW gives you 50/51*12*5 = 3000/3060 mana at the same amount of time (That is with improve BoW). So unless you all walking around with 13k mana BoW is still that much better, also you only need 1 paladin in the entire raid for it and it works all the time and have no range requirement. Imagine fights like Cthun, Sapph, Thadd and KT, getting a mana tide totem there to help the all group is quite hard I imagine. Not to mention that the healer group is the one missing that very crucial buff, there are many fights in this game that BoW > BoK in many regards.

As for BoM vs WF/SoE, I don't see why you can't have both (Same for the BoW argument as well). A paladin can easily buff both BoW and BoM.

BoS vs tranq totem work the same with the BoW argument. And BoS is a huge dps upgrade to the entire raid, it means you can do much more damage because you have a much higher aggro ceiling. Threat is allways there and BoS makes the fight more quicker and in some cases also much more controllable (IE: Noth).

Again, a very durable healer (If he's not a tank) that almost never goes out of mana, another judgement (JoW/JoL) and another aura. I'll say that a pala can produce the most healing per mana pool on a single target, and its not even close.

At the moment it seems that you can't change groups during combat, and again a lot of fights doesn't give you time to start swapping people in the raid mid-combat.

I'm pretty surprised to see those words coming from a paladin, a paladins are truely unique in what they bring and are indeed the ultimate support class. Sure at first you seem very limited in the fact you only buff, cleanse and heal. But those buffs are the single strongest buffs any class can give (Only buff I can think off which is better then the paladin current top 3 blesses is fortitude).

I also feel a prot paladin will be extremely usefull in raid situations (Best AoE tank, BoK/Bosanc, Imp Devo aura etc.), as for a retri paladin it might be worth if it for 3% crit gain for the entire raid and the Improved Sanctity Aura, but its hard to tell.

You seem to be quite angry at something but I hope I prove some of your points wrong.

 

suicuique

It depends. 1% crit can be worth more that 1% AP and could be less.
On Loatheb i would prefer 1% AP to 1% crit e.g.
Couple that with the fact thar in most cases 1% hit is worth less than 1% crit and i would take the 8-9% AP gain anyday on any boss.

And as for haste effects and rage generation. You kinda got that wrong.
The "swing" part of the rage formula does not profit from haste effects.
The damage portion (which is still the dominant part of the rage equation) gains from haste effects in a linear way. So do talents like unbridled wrath.
Haste does increase rage in a significant way.

 

Oneiros

Coming from someone who used to play a druid as their main (only switching about 2 weeks ago), I'd much rather have paladins over druids anytime. A paladin is a much better healer (imo) if properly geared. Also, TBC gear doesn't exactly have an overabundance of spirit on it, preferring to itemize regen as mana per 5. The role of innervate in the expansion could be questionable. The advantages of bringing a druid to heal are slim at best. For DPS, I'd still rather have a paladin. The 3% raid wide crit is much better than 5% crit (or whatever LOTP currently is) for one party. Unless I am missing something, I would cap druids at one spot per raid (in the raids I will be leading). Shaman otoh, I don't really know. I'm alliance and I haven't had much experience with shaman abilities, I just know they have mana issues and are forced to spec mana tide (which most don't want to).

I believe in Harvey Dent.

 

Judia

Except this isnt true in TBC.
With stacking HoTs and the poor scaling of FoL against HP pools, and combined with the fact you will not have BoL on the raid without having at least 4 paladins, paladin healing is taking a massive hit in terms of effectiveness. I dont think this is true in the expansion. Further, drawing the least aggro is a DISADVANTAGE when you are a plate wearing healing class; yeah I really love drawing the least aggro when I watch adds beating on cloth wearing priests.

My raid actually has 5 people who can dispel magic BTW.

As a straight comparisson I agree.
But in the context of a raid where oyu have 2 shadow priests pumping out 250-300 mp5s and 3 innervate, the advantages of BoW over MTT are infact small enough to be insignificant. People are extremely unliely to run short of mana givent he raid set-up I posted with the ability to drop shaman into the healing group for mana-tide.

Yes but he wont unless you have at least 3 paladins in the raid.
Your primary buffs are going to be BoS, and BoK. Some people may prefer BoW over BoK, but until you are bringing 3 paladins you wont see all 3 buffs.
I agree, but it makes me sad that the only reason to bring a second paladin is BoS.
Doesnt that say something about the state of the class that if you took away BoS you almost certainly wouldnt need a second paladin ? (IMO)

This is a bug to do with Addons.

I agree, what I want to know is what a SECOND paladin adds.

Look at my raid.
Think about where you would add a paladin and which class you would remove.
Then add up all the things you lose, and it isnt so clear. The primary candidates for replacement are a priest or a shaman, but in both cases you end up getting less or less healing, AND less utility or raid buff performance.

I could see on a clense heavy fight you might desire more paladins, but only if it is magic, shaman poison removal totem makes us redundant on a poison type fight.

My problem is I have a major aversion to being a dead weight, and holding down my raid. Im not saying that my friends will all abandon me to min-max their raid, but it annoys me more than a little that as a second paladin I would essentially be holding them back.

 

Judia

Again, this is questionable in the expansion.
With stackable HoT's you are going to want at least 2 druids. Bear tanks are so good right now it would be madness not to take the tank class with the best threat on 1-4 targets; even better of the 3 tanking classess they are by far the best when asked to dps on fights you need fewer tanks for.

 

• goss

As we've seen time and time again from 40 man raids - optimal raid composition is always constrained (or driven) by encounter design. Comparing paladin buffs/abilities to the array of other options provided by other "hybrid" classes would seem to be highly dependent on context, which you don't possess.

 

Liand

So just put up Righteous Fury? We also have a Taunt for snap aggro. Our advantage is that we can CONTROL our aggro, because we start off the lowest and can increase it at will.

250 to 300 MP5? That'd require the Shadow Priest doing 1000 to 1200 DPS, and if their sustainable DPS ever got that high somehow, it still only applies to the other 4 people in group for total of 1100 MP5. With the 19 mana using classes in your ideal raid make-up, IBoW adds 935 MP5 total without any maintenance at all. That's definitely not insignificant.

Easy.

I'd replace the second Elemental Shaman with a Retribution Paladin. BoW gives more mana regen than Mana Tide. Sanctified Crusader is far better than Totem of Wrath (3% crit to all attacks raid-wide vs. 3% spell hit and crit to party). Ret will probably do less DPS, but it's virtually mana free, whereas Elemental has to pick between healing and DPSing. You also get another Judgement effect.

And so on and so on...

Really, it just seems like you're looking for a reason to exclude Paladins. We just offer so many things are completely unique in game.

 

• Vinsent

I dont think you groups are set up very optimaly, and I still dont see why you wouldnt want a third paladin.

There are lots of group configurations that are going to be really interesting come TBC and I dont think the groups you listed are, well, good.

There are several group configurations that can make use of paladin unique ablities more than you are.

First your tank group, why do you not have a warlock for the imp? Why dont you have a paladin for Imp Scantity Aura?

Druid - Bear Spec (Imp Leader of the Pack)
Paladin - Imp Scantiy Aura, Scantified Cursader, Rest in prot.
Warlock - Imp
Shaman - Enhancement
Warrior - Prot

Would be the tank group that I would want, they have amazing stam, 6% better heals on them, their crits heal them, and they have WF/etc. Simply an amazing tank set up.

To stay on topic I cant imagine why you would put a hunter for TSA in a tank group before a ret paladin who gives the group 6% better heals, thats just pure insanity IMHO.

If your looking at mana regen teaming up a paladin with a Shadow Priest and an/or OOMkin is insane.

3% more crit heals (which heal for free), getting mana back from the shadow pirest mana return and health return!

Endless mana caster group for example.
Warlock
Warlock
Shadow Priest
Holy Paladin
Resto Shaman/Elemental Sham.

Crit Group -
Elemental Sham
Mage
Mage
Mage
Moonkin
Holy Paladin

With paladins amazing spirt. (/sarcasm) Im not sure why you have them in the druid healing group (which I assume your using trees in).

Priest
Priest
Druid
Druid
Resto Shaman

would be a much stronger "maximize" healing group.

Those would be my 4 basic raid groups, then the 5th would be a melee dps group, which paladins cant really add to, something like.

Enhance Sham
Rogue
Rogue
DPS Warrior
Hunter

The class I see getting min maxed out is not paladins, its hunters. They are strong, but they dont have the synergy, you need one for pulling, who pulls with misdirection, and has Improved Hunters Mark, and TSA, after that they dont seem to stack as well. (this is just theory atm). They need quite a bit to complete with either 10% stats to the raid, 30% less threat to the raid, or 40mana/5 200 attack power. (Not to mention either BoL, BoW, or Scantified Crusader.)

I cant imagine booting a paladin to bring a hunter (sorry hunters)

This raid set up gives you 8 speced healers, 2 dedicated tanks, 2 off tanks, and 13 dpsers.

We will see how raids are set up in TBC but I think this is pretty damn close to optimal.

 

Fiola

Just by being there, the second paladin adds a second (group) aura, a second blessings, and a second judgement.


Totems being better than blessings depends entirely on your raid composition. Ignoring BoSalv, if you assume the 1st paladin takes kings, the 2nd paladin can give might/wisdom on a class by class basis. That's more flexible than shaman totems, which require: 1.) special party setup (all mana users fror mana tide; all melee for WF/GoE) 2.) More maintenence. (15 minute raid-wide buff vs. 1~2 minute limited Area of Effect)


And how about the other classes? What does that 2nd Prot warrior really bring? The 2nd shadow priest, the 2nd non-shadow priest? 3rd/4th lock/mage?


And more importantly, since few guilds have the option of constructing the "ideal" group, what do we care? Those 2nd/3rd blessings have very tangible benefits and stack with shaman support buffs. (Never mind how whiny Alliance is about having their blessings)

The paladin's realistic raid value is better than the "ideal" raid value you've assigned to it. That's quite enough for me.

 

• frmorrison

Quick question, does the Shadow priest heal count towards the Pally in regards to gaining Mana?

Every 25 man wants 2 Pallys, the usefulness of blessings, the mana usage of 2 second HL and judgements is good enough to bring two.

DK - Ashbane Failure is the condiment that gives success its flavor.

 

• goss

Yes, having a shadow priest in your group is really amazing with spiritual attunement. Any heal sets it off, even if I have no HP deficit. This synergy lets me really open up with top rank Holy Lights (with new and improved throughput thanks to Light's Grace) without having to worry much about mana. Doing shadow vulnerable mobs with a priest in my group during a BWL run was...fun. :)