Quick question, does the Shadow priest heal count towards the Pally in regards to gaining Mana?
Indeed it does. I was running though AV yesterday and got placed in a Shadow Priests group. I litterally could not spend all my mana it was an impossiblity.
As does bandages, and any overhealing. Its by far the coolest thing we got in the new patch.
Minor nitpick: HoT ticks while at full health don't give mana.
But yes, Spiritual Attunement is amazing, Vampiric Touch is amazing, and the two combined are amazing squared. I've done a couple 5-mans in the beta with myself tanking, a holy paladin as MH, and a shadow priest on dps, and there's very very little downtime. Ironically, the shadow priest is the only one that has to drink very much at all.
My comrades are my weapons, and I am their shield.
3% hit and 3% crit is slightly more than 6% damage, its probably about 7% dps (depending on your class).
The amount of damage that 3% hit and crit add varies a lot by class and spec, but for warlocks and presumably shadow priests its appreciably lower than you think.
As a destruction specced warlock I would guess that that would add ~5% to my DPS, since a significant portion of my DPS still comes from not critting sources (DoTs and on occasion my pet) For affliction warlocks that probably drops UNDER 3% both because 10% hit is available from talents, and because a resist on a channeled spell doesn't render that DPS completely lost, you can recast it after the GCD is up and still do ~70% of the DPS the spell normally does. Shadow priests I assume are largely the same, since +hit is readily accesible in talents and the lack of efficient crittable spells and the lack of double damage crits.
I would guess that the improvement for a frost mage is probably 6%, and 7% or more for fire mages (210% crits and Master of Element procs)
Originally Posted by Judia
The last I read, when you are affected by a haste effect (such as flurry) your HASTED weapon speed (rather than your base) is used to calculate rage gain. In essence, bloodlust wont make you generate rage any faster because your increased attack rate will be mitigated by lower rage per hit due to faster attack speed.
This might have been changed.
I'm pretty sure that you will gain rage faster when hasted since you are doing more a lot more damage, just that its not as fast as it could be if the formula used the base weapon speed. (I'll leave the math on that to one of the warrior experts here)
Minor nitpick: HoT ticks while at full health don't give mana.
But yes, Spiritual Attunement is amazing, Vampiric Touch is amazing, and the two combined are amazing squared. I've done a couple 5-mans in the beta with myself tanking, a holy paladin as MH, and a shadow priest on dps, and there's very very little downtime. Ironically, the shadow priest is the only one that has to drink very much at all.
She is correct.
Actually a shadow priest and Paladin combo can solo most 5 man instances.
Few comments on my experiences with Ret post-patch:
Imp Sanc Aura is pretty nice in Naxx atm. Been able to test it on most fights. Obviously very nice on Patchwerk - we had 2 ret pallies in the raid so the MT and all OTs had imp devo and imp sanc.
On Loatheb today, I was able to do about 83k damage while still keeping a few heal items on. And with 2 shadow priests in the MT group, I had no mana issues. I was actually scared i would pull agro - on both our dry runs, when the tank died he went after me next. I had to ninja a buff later on just to be sure. :)
Yes HoTs dont trigger it if your at full since HoT dont ever overheal. Anyway its nitpicking.
Just have to train my healers to overheal me when Im tanking. I miss EMs! =P
I think I am going to use our Paladins are Healing Touch trash cans whenever I have the chance to shift out and nothing better to heal. Sad thing is, I am serious. >_>
Ok since this topic was revived lets post some nice builds:
Full healadin: http://www.wow-europe.com/en/info/ba...00000000000000
You get all the important holy talents - Illumination, DF, Improve BoW, Aura Mastery and Holy Guidance. Then go in the prot tree for BoK and Guardian's Favour. Then you just just throw points around to get the more situational stuff like Improve Concentration and the Purifying Power, I actually took Divine Illumination cause I had a talent point left, otherwise I wouldn't bother.
Cookie cutter build: http://www.wow-europe.com/en/info/ba...01030100000000
This is my guess what most paladins will take, gives you all the stuff you need for healing and a decent damage for soloing and grinding. BoK will be missed but you only need 1 paladin in the raid with it, and hopefully he will do some tanking as well.
MT build: http://www.wow-europe.com/en/info/ba...00200120000000
With this spec you get the best aggro/mitigation combo. Sanctity Aura is much more important then Avenger's shield and having Improved Retribution Aura will be extremely nice for AoE tanking. Of course if you can get another paladin to spec those you can most likely go 41 point in prot and pick up Guardian's Favour as well. But this build is the way to go if you wanna be self sustained.
OT/healing build: http://www.wow-europe.com/en/info/ba...00000000000000
Considering Holy Shield is one of the most important talents to have while tanking I would pick it up, then throw the rest of the points in holy. You'll miss some great top tiers talents, but this build makes you a decent tank and pretty good healer as well (Basiclly a pre-2.0 holy paladin).
My 60-70 build: http://www.wow-europe.com/en/info/ba...00000000000000
Will start as 10/41/0 to get Spritual Focus. Then picking up all the nice prot talents like Improved HoJ, Improved DS, Presicion and Avenger's Shield. This build will be quite nice for soloing stuff and tanking 5-men instances. Reckon it will be quite nice to level with.
Didn't posted any retri build mostly cause I just specced it and want to check it a bit first. Donno how viable its gonna be with the incoming nerf, I actually find it really hard to get any raid spot for a retri paladin at this current state. Hopefully things will change or expansion items will even things out and make a retri paladin viable, guess I'll have to wait and see.
I think I am going to use our Paladins are Healing Touch trash cans whenever I have the chance to shift out and nothing better to heal. Sad thing is, I am serious. >_>
If you have nothing else to spend your mana on, then that won't be a waste of mana. It will almost certainly be a waste of time, however compared to, say, the damage you could do if you just spend that time in cat form pawing at something.
EDIT: Or hell, spam moonfire or something.
My comrades are my weapons, and I am their shield.
How important would you say is SoC for aggro? Or do you tank with JoR anyway and SoC is for grinding?
Then there is also Precision VS Reckoning VS One-handed Weapon Specialization. Am I right to say that One-Handed Weapon Specialization is the worst of the 3? That would leave Precision VS Reckoning:
I'd think that Precision is better in cases where you a) do not AoE tank a whole lot of mobs and b) where you have to wear resist gear. Reckoning on the other hand is awesome if you AoE tank. (For cases where you cannot opt to take them both).
And the last question: Uninterrupted heals for Paladin tanks or not? I was tending to go for 10 Holy to get Spiritual Guidance but I saw that you didn't include that in your build (no Imp. BoP either), so is this just a case of making trade offs in utility vs a bit of specializing?
Long story short, how would you rate this build for general purpose tanking?
There is also (an admittedly awkward) alternative here if SoC was needed to tank.
In any case, dropping Captain America shield like I saw in your build is a no go for me for reasons mentioned here.
I think I am going to use our Paladins are Healing Touch trash cans whenever I have the chance to shift out and nothing better to heal. Sad thing is, I am serious. >_>
If you have nothing else to spend your mana on, then that won't be a waste of mana. It will almost certainly be a waste of time, however compared to, say, the damage you could do if you just spend that time in cat form pawing at something.
EDIT: Or hell, spam moonfire or something.
Maybe you are right, but I was thinking of mobile fights such as being OT at Anub where you have time between moving from one corner to the other at Locust Swarms. Currently, I can use the time to do some ranged DPS vs healing a Paladin - but I am not sure what is more effective.
Ideally they'd change how HoTs work and let them overheal. I mean, what's the point? You already paid the mana to cast the spell so it doesn't matter if it's overheal or not unless you want to show off in the Healing Meters. :P
How important would you say is SoC for aggro? Or do you tank with JoR anyway and SoC is for grinding?
SoC is purely grinding most of the time, alltough it can be nice for stunnable trash for initial aggro. Then again when going for Improved Sanctity, you should probably take it, as there is nothing else to take at those tiers.
Then there is also Precision VS Reckoning VS One-handed Weapon Specialization. Am I right to say that One-Handed Weapon Specialization is the worst of the 3? That would leave Precision VS Reckoning:
I'd think that Precision is better in cases where you a) do not AoE tank a whole lot of mobs and b) where you have to wear resist gear. Reckoning on the other hand is awesome if you AoE tank. (For cases where you cannot opt to take them both).
Presicion is pretty decent, and it will be quite usefull in later parts when you can drop Anticaption all together (Will probably won't be needed with the gear that you will get). Reckoning just looks a better overall talent tho, if the mob hits you every 2 seconds, that means it will proc on average 3 times a minute, thats 12 more attacks (Which can be missed tho, on average will be 9-10). Presicion is basiclly 3 more attacks out of 100, with a 2 seconds weapon you only hit 30 times a minute. I'll stick with reckoning (Also gives a very nice burst aggro which is allways good).
And the last question: Uninterrupted heals for Paladin tanks or not? I was tending to go for 10 Holy to get Spiritual Guidance but I saw that you didn't include that in your build (no Imp. BoP either), so is this just a case of making trade offs in utility vs a bit of specializing?
I just can't see me healing myself in a raid content while tanking, besides the casuall lay for emergency situation I'm usually just focusing and keeping aggro. In 5 men instances tho I will probably heal myself at least once every pull, so while leveling and at the early 70 game I'm gonna stick to the same build.
Long story short, how would you rate this build for general purpose tanking?
Its pretty decent but you still missing on Improve Judgement and Improve JoTC. Huge aggro generating skills. Less important in 5 men but seems kinda crucial in raids. Also no Ardent Defender which will be extremely usefull for AoE tanking and 5 men. I also find Toughness and Anticaption to be a bit meh in the non-heroic 5-men versions. Since aggro is much more important then mitigation there.
There is also (an admittedly awkward) alternative here if SoC was needed to tank.
In any case, dropping Captain America shield like I saw in your build is a no go for me for reasons mentioned here.
I just don't really see high usefullness for AS at this point of time, only usefull for pulling and even there it can be dangerous. Its pretty awesome when grinding and grouping outdoor but in instances its pretty weak. Long cooldown and minimum range just makes it unattractive.
PS: Sorry for being a n00b. >_>
I can be a noob sometimes myself (FFS I just replaced LB chest with redemption one, only took a year!) don't worry about it ;)
How important would you say is SoC for aggro? Or do you tank with JoR anyway and SoC is for grinding?
SoC is not at all important for tanking. The threat output is too spiky, and with a one-hander overall damage output will be considerably lower than So. In fact, for spelldamage one-handers SoR will likely do more damage per swing than SoC does per proc.
Then there is also Precision VS Reckoning VS One-handed Weapon Specialization. Am I right to say that One-Handed Weapon Specialization is the worst of the 3? That would leave Precision VS Reckoning:
I'd think that Precision is better in cases where you a) do not AoE tank a whole lot of mobs and b) where you have to wear resist gear. Reckoning on the other hand is awesome if you AoE tank. (For cases where you cannot opt to take them both).
In terms of total threat output, even against a single target, Reckoning procs often enough to make it better than precision. As a simple example, if the mob is swinging once every two seconds (pretty slowly) and you're avoiding half the swings through miss/dodge/parry (an unreasonably high number), then you'll get one Reckoning proc every 40 seconds on average, meaning you'll spend ~20% of time with Reckoning up, doing double weapon damage. That substantially outperforms Precision, even on a point-for-point basis. And of course it's up near-permanently if you're tanking 3-4 things at once.
Also, while I don't have One-hand spec and don't have any plans to take it in the near future, it's not as bad as it looks. The 10% bonus applies to SoR as well (strangely, given that Two-hand Spec in the ret tree doesn't, but oh well) and unlike the Improved SoR talent it applies to the full damage of SoR, including +spelldamage effects. Reckoning also leverages this, and when you add it all up it's not an insubstantial boost to overall damage and threat.
And the last question: Uninterrupted heals for Paladin tanks or not? I was tending to go for 10 Holy to get Spiritual Guidance but I saw that you didn't include that in your build (no Imp. BoP either), so is this just a case of making trade offs in utility vs a bit of specializing?
Yes, and it's annoying that a tank-healer hybrid has to spend ten talent points just to be able to heal half-decently while getting beaten on, and it's especially annoying that Spiritual Focus was on Tier 1 of Holy prior to our talent "buff" in patch 1.9.
Long story short, how would you rate this build for general purpose tanking?
Pretty good given the constraints you're working under. I'd go for Ardent Defender over Anticipation, though. It really is that good. That build basically illustrates why I think Deflection and Spiritual Focus should be Tier 1 talents in their respective trees. If that were the case you could retain all the functionality of that build, grab Improved Judgement as well, and still have eight more points to spend on making yourself a better tank.
In any case, dropping Captain America shield like I saw in your build is a no go for me for reasons mentioned here.
I love the shield throw myself, and I'd take it over Sanctity Aura any day of the week. Sustained threat generation with 41-prot isn't a problem, and the sheild is a big help in locking down aggro at the beginning of a fight. In a 5-man it essentially obviates the need for an early consecration, and if you can do it before CC (sheep/seduce/etc) then you can ensure that when the CC ends, the mob will be aggro'd on you and not on the mage/lock/whatever. And for boss pulls, a threat spike at the beginning is huge for letting your dps open up early.
My comrades are my weapons, and I am their shield.
I like Improved Sanctity a lot tho, its pretty nifty since that 6% more heals is also 6% more mana gained. Basiclly when someone casts a 3k heal on you, you actually get healed for 180 more, thus gaining 18 more mana, this really adds up in the long run, with the amount of healing a tank recieves its probably more then a BoW. And besides, Sanctity is no sluch for soloing as well, gotta love the added damage it brings.
I like Improved Sanctity a lot tho, its pretty nifty since that 6% more heals is also 6% more mana gained. Basiclly when someone casts a 3k heal on you, you actually get healed for 180 more, thus gaining 18 more mana, this really adds up in the long run, with the amount of healing a tank recieves its probably more then a BoW. And besides, Sanctity is no sluch for soloing as well, gotta love the added damage it brings.
Ideally, won't there be a (part) Ret Pala in nearly every 25 man to cover for that anyway?
And thanks for the replies, guys. :)
Ideally, yes. Your spec should reflect your circumstance... there's no "best spec" for all tanking situations, if you have a Ret paladin in your guild with 99% raid attendance then full prot is the clear choice... however, if you can't generally depend on having that Imp. Sanctity Aura, then speccing for it yourself is a better choice, in my eyes, than 41 Prot's Captain America as far as pure tanking goes.
i've been a healing paladin for quite a while, with most naxx gear eye of the dead 6/9 redemp, waiting on hammer of the twisting nether drop... ~1100 healing atm. all i can say is this last patch has made me most happy. not only did they make retribution viable, they also made tanking viable with righteous defense and the 8% mana return on heals. for me though, those improvements were overshadowed by the improvements in holy. 35% int into spell dmg/heal and 2 second holy light have turned me into a group pvp powerhouse. 2 second holy light makes my pants wet that is all
The first one is really similar to the "full healadin" build of Guybrash. At the moment I think, I will use this build, come bc. It offers everything healimproving into the holytree and has the rest of the points spent in protection to be able to offtank mobs if necessary, and to buff blessing of kings. This will also be an advantage in group-pvp, you will be a good and duable combathealer, something I really miss on my priest at the moment.
The second build has the improved blessings of wisdom and might instead of blessing of kings. Ideally one paladin in the raid (at least if it's a 25 man raid) should have these two improved blessings (44 more attackpower and 8m/5s more). I think it might be a bit better at soloing mobs, mainly because of more mana gained from blessing of wisdom and the shorter cooldown and costs of judgements. But the complete lack of protection talents in this build worries me a bit. It will decrease the ability to be a tank if needed.
This two builds are mainly made for pve. I didn't took talents which are, in my opinion, mainly pvp-focused, e.g. unyielding faith, stoicism or improved hammer of justice/concentration aura.
I would rather chose Improved Devotion Aura over Redoubt for raiding purpose and Unyielding Faith over 2 points in Anticipation for PvP-ing purpose, since 8 Defense skill is not as game-breaking as 10% more resistance against Fear and annoying things like Blind.
This covers all the primary healing talents as well as enough talents to provide a serious tanking niche - the AoE tanker. In situations where you're taking a lot of damage in small increments, Blessed Life is essentially a 5% damage reduction. With Improved Righteous Fury, you essentially have Defensive Stance without the down side.
This spec is pretty similar to the previous Holy-heavy tanking builds. However there are a few personal choices (as opposed to the no-brainers, e.g. Light's Grace):
- 1 Point in Improved LoH or Unyielding Faith? I prefer UF because I never use LoH in practice - the mana is too valuable for healing, and fear is an issue in a number of encounters. I think I could easily be convinced otherwise, however, since the Improved LoH effect is guaranteed and UF is not.
- Redoubt instead of Improved Devotion. This build is not intended to be the main tank, but a specialized one, and so talents that perform well under those specialized circumstances are preferable. Redoubt is very effective for AoE tanking or any other situations where you're taking lots of damage in small chunks. However, while I'm AoE tanking I wouldn't expect to use Imp Devo since Retribution would be preferable for the threat generation. When I'm not tanking but still expecting to take occasional physical damage, I'd much prefer Concentration over the mitigation provided by Devotion. This is especially the case if I'm the main healer in a 5-man; I can't afford to lose casting time. Also, I don't expect to be in the MT's group since the Ret Pally and Tree Druid fits there better (I realize I can also be in the MT group, but I really would rather be in the Shadow Priest group - and many fights are 2 tanks + warlock + Ret Pally + Tree Druid). So there just aren't a lot of situations where I'd turn Devotion on.
- Blessed Life as the 41-43 points. This provides roughly 5% passive mitigation to everything. It's really hard to beat that for 3 points. It'd be a no-brainer if it wasn't for the fact that it occupied the same tier as the best healing talent in the game (possible exception of Nature's Swiftness) - Light's Grace. Losing 10% off of cleanse isn't that big a deal. In most cases you're better off letting the specialized cleaners do their job, especially when it comes to stacking poison/disease effects (1.5s to eventually remove 5, or 1.5s to remove 1?). Sanctuary in protection is tempting, but it's hard to justify using Sanctuary except as a third-tier buff, and if you have enough paladins chances are one of them is full Protection, in which case that 21st point is virtually useless. Still, if no one else has Sanctuary, you could definitely make a case for that instead of Blessed Life. In the AoE tanking situation, Sanctuary is probably a better than any other self-blessing + Blessed Life.
- Imp Concentration Aura. Really, you're paying the points for the interrupt/silence resistance. The difference between 35% and 50% is essentially nonexistent as almost every other stacking talent is 2 points for 35/70%. Definitely more PvP focused since it's not reliable enough to count on for PvE. On the other hand, Concentration Aura is probably what I have on 95% of the time, if not more. It's the default Healadin aura and due to the sheer ubiquitous nature of the aura it's hard to pass up anything that provides some added benefit. I could see Stoicism being a replacement for this (or in addition to this if I was going for Sanctuary) especially considering that Light's Grace is a magic effect (and Righteous Fury). Still, getting an effect dispelled rarely results in someone dying without time to react; getting interrupted -frequently- results in someone dying before you can compensate.
In my opinion the big choice is to get Blessed Life or Blessing of Sanctuary.
I would rather chose Improved Devotion Aura over Redoubt for raiding purpose and Unyielding Faith over 2 points in Anticipation for PvP-ing purpose, since 8 Defense skill is not as game-breaking as 10% more resistance against Fear and annoying things like Blind.
For the discussion Improved Devotion Aura vs. Redoubt, I would like to refer to the arguments brought up by Noules, he has nearly exactly worded my reasons, why to choose the one over the other. In short, from what I have read the healing paladin will mainly use concentration aura over devotion aura.
Please keep in mind, that since I'm horde I have no actually raiding expierience with a paladin. All the builds I have created are simply from reading forums, guides, spreadsheets and sometimes from observations in battlegrounds or worldpvp, but I think when to choose between these two talents it may be partially due to personal preference and I fully expect some talentpoints to shift when the raiding in BC begins and one can see which things are needded and which are not.
Your point about unyielding faith seems very logical, I will integrate that in my build.
I would rather chose Improved Devotion Aura over Redoubt for raiding purpose and Unyielding Faith over 2 points in Anticipation for PvP-ing purpose, since 8 Defense skill is not as game-breaking as 10% more resistance against Fear and annoying things like Blind.
Even in its recently-buffed state, Imp. Devotion is pretty poor. Given the recent increase in shield block values, Redoubt is going to help the paladin far more. The disadvantage of Redoubt is that it applies only to the paladin whereas Imp. Devotion affects the entire group. Even so, ~300 armor for 5 talent points that applies only to one aura is pretty hard to justify.
Originally Posted by Noules
- 1 Point in Improved LoH or Unyielding Faith? I prefer UF because I never use LoH in practice - the mana is too valuable for healing, and fear is an issue in a number of encounters. I think I could easily be convinced otherwise, however, since the Improved LoH effect is guaranteed and UF is not.
I'm madly in love with Imp.LoH for PvE. Never mind the cooldown reduction: what's great is the ability to use it proactively to seal up the last two minutes of an encounter you're still learning. I used this all the time while we were learning Twin Emps: the reasoning is that if you've made it through the first 10+ minutes, even if you've had a few close calls, the tank becomes pretty much impossible to kill with Imp.LoH on, and you avoid losing a good 15 minutes of work to a late damage spike. (You save your potion timer and pot up immediately after the LoH of course.)
Sanctuary in protection is tempting, but it's hard to justify using Sanctuary except as a third-tier buff, and if you have enough paladins chances are one of them is full Protection, in which case that 21st point is virtually useless. Still, if no one else has Sanctuary, you could definitely make a case for that instead of Blessed Life. In the AoE tanking situation, Sanctuary is probably a better than any other self-blessing + Blessed Life.
I think Sanctuary is going to be more common than most people are expecting right now. The last rank removes eightly points of damage, which is certainly going to be enough to make a noticeable difference even on non-AoE fights. (I'm not disputing the Blessed Life choice, though; that's a great talent.)
My comrades are my weapons, and I am their shield.
The problem with Sanctuary has always been that its damage reduction is applied before any other mitigation factors. In practice, even with the much higher value in the final rank, the amount of mitigation it provides against raid mobs will likely be around 1-2% (if your max-armor tank is taking 2k a hit - which is probably very low at 70 - it means the base damage is 8k, and thus the actual reduction is ~1%). If you have any paladins healing at all, Blessing of Light is going to provide (far) more than 1% increase to the amount healed. Under most circumstances, the non-tanks will benefit more from Blessing of Might/Wisdom, Blessing of Salvation, Blessing of Kings and Blessings of Light before Blessing of Sanctuary, while the tanks will need Kings and Light, and arguably Might before Sanctuary. In non-AE fights, any amounts of damage that Sanctuary provides good mitigation for tends to be minor enough that you don't have to really worry about it. It's terrible against DoTs, too, since the amount reduced is spread out over the duration of the entire DoT.
It's therefore hard to justify the use of Sanctuary unless you're covering a Redoubt-paladin in an AE fight or you've got a LOT of paladins (which is especially unlikely with a 25 man limit). Really the only thing going for Sanctuary is that it's truly dominant in AE encounters - excellent damage reduction plus a large threat generator for a Redoubt-pally.
I think Sanctuary is going to be the talent that differentiates Tankadins and non-Tankadins. It's hard to justify a Paladin main tanking single raid mobs since druids and warriors already do that so well. Many of the Paladin tanking talents don't function very well against a single mob hitting relatively slowly. Given all that, it seems very likely that tanking Paladins are going to be slotted for AE or multitarget encounters. And of all the talents the Paladin has, Sanctuary helps the most in that situation.
The corollary to that point however is that any Paladin with Redoubt and Improved Righteous Fury is going to be very, very good at AE tanking if they get Sanctuary. Almost every Retadin and most Healadins are likely to have those talents (in my opinion, it's very difficult not to consider take Improved Righteous Fury by 70 - it's just too useful) - and if they do, they'll be almost as effective as a pure Protection Paladin as long as someone is around to buff them with Sanctuary.
I think this is going to make Sanctuary relatively scarce as it'll be one of those talents that everyone would prefer someone else get.
Edit - Okay, -technically-, the problem with Sanctuary hasn't always been that it applied the reduction before mitigation (originally, it was post-mitigation before being changed with stoneskin totem).
12/13/06, 4:30 PM
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