Hunter Spreadsheets -- In development - Page 12

Groggan · 06/07/07, 9:48 PM

If you could spot check the equations I laid out on the right here that would be awesome. Also, if you could confirm the way damage modifiers are included that would be awesome.

And by you I mean The Iron Colonel or Cheeky or anyone else that has dealt with these equations before

The Iron Colonel · 06/08/07, 12:00 AM

I don't have time tonight to thoroughly cross check the formulas for specific shots, but one thing I noticed is that you've calculated both autos and specials as having two tables for results (i.e. hits aren't crits, crits aren't hits). I'm fairly certain autos use 1 table (all crits are hits, all hits are not crits) and specials use 2 tables (crits aren't hits, hits aren't crits). It's kind of late, though, and I can't find a reliable source for this information. Can someone confirm or disconfirm this?

Groggan · 06/08/07, 12:30 AM

Did I?

What I'm doing is taking the base damage of a shot, and multiplying it by

[(Crit%*CritMod) + (hit%-crit%)]

So that distributes to (with X representing base damage)

(Crit%*CritMod*X) + (hit%-crit%)*X

or with 100% chance to hit

(Crit%*CritMod*X) + (1-crit%)*X

Is that not correct? I wana say that's how Cheeky does it in his spreadsheet (and I think he verified that part for me), but I could be wrong too :P

Xeno · 06/08/07, 2:20 AM

Groggan · 06/08/07, 2:27 AM

Originally Posted by Xeno

Groggan in your spreadsheets default values I noticed you entered 2.33 as your crit modifier. I think 2.37 would be more accurate, as the Relentless Earthstorm Diamond affects the total crit, not the crit bonus like mortal shots.

I don't have that diamond, was trying to account for slaying talents, but I see in the earthstorm diamond thread that slaying works differently too, so I'll probably adjust it to 2.44 (2.3 *1.03 *1.03) and drop the damage modifier down to 1.03 (I'm looking at damage with FI up also).

edit: republished with those changes.

edit: Can anyone take a look at the variable equations and dps equations and confirm they are correct? Particularly the dps equation. I wana get it right before I take the time to add in the shot cycle inputs etc.

◊ Lactose · 06/08/07, 4:06 AM

I don't really have time to check this, going to work in a sec.
However, there are some formulae here you might want to take a look at:
http://hunterguide.wikispaces.com/Theorycraft

The Iron Colonel · 06/08/07, 10:26 AM

Originally Posted by Groggan

Did I?

What I'm doing is taking the base damage of a shot, and multiplying it by

[(Crit%*CritMod) + (hit%-crit%)]

So that distributes to (with X representing base damage)

(Crit%*CritMod*X) + (hit%-crit%)*X

or with 100% chance to hit

(Crit%*CritMod*X) + (1-crit%)*X

Is that not correct? I wana say that's how Cheeky does it in his spreadsheet (and I think he verified that part for me), but I could be wrong too :P

That distributes for a one roll system (crits are not hits, hits are not crits). IF it uses a two roll system (crits are hits, not all hits are crits), critical strikes are the product of hit and crit. This would look like:

[(hit%-hit%*crit%)+hit%*(crit%*CritMod)]*DamageFromShot

So the sum of hits and crits is equal to the hit%, which may be less than 100% of all attacks (it doesn't account for misses, but with 100% to hit it is the same as your last formula, which we would expect). Anyway, you could simplify that equation but I think that form is most demonstrative of my point. This is why I asked; again, I haven't confirmed it's a two roll special / one roll auto system yet, but that's the mathematical line of reasoning with which I approached it.

Groggan · 06/08/07, 12:52 PM

I'd never heard anyone mention that any of our specials are on the two-roll system. I though they were all treated the same as auto shot (which is treated the same as melee attacks, including specials, which are one-roll).

Anyone know for sure?

The Iron Colonel · 06/08/07, 1:37 PM

There's some good info in [dps Warrior] Hit is hugely overrated if you want to read more. It appears that the consensus is that it is a 1 roll system, but I don't want to put words in mouths. Essentially, this is what the info in that thread says:

* There is 1 roll to determine if something is a hit, miss, crit, glance, etc.
* 1% crit has no effect on the miss %, but subtracts 1% from your chance to hit
* 1% hit has no effect on the crit %, but subtracts 1% from your chance to miss

Make sense? I think I have that correct. Assuming it is, the formula should be

(ChanceHit+Crit%*CritModifier)*ShotDamage = TotalDamageFromShot
where
ChanceHit = 1 - (ChanceMiss - %Hit) - Crit%
ShotDamage = whatever the shot damage formula is for the given shot

So your Hit% converts miss chances to hits, and crit% converts hit chances to crits. I believe this is correct, but again, math mistakes may have been made.

Groggan · 06/08/07, 2:22 PM

I think you are complicating it there. For a 1-roll system you can just do what I'm doing and use:

(Crit%*CritMod)*Damge + (Hit%-Crit%)*Damage

What this does is for your %crit multiplies the damage by the crit mod, then it takes and subtracts out your crits from your total hits and multiplies that % by shot damage. Or if you reverse the order maybe it would make more sense:

(Hit%-Crit%)*Damage + (Crit%*CritMod)*Damge

So it's how many hits will I get that are not crits, and then how many crits will I get. If you add up (Hit%-Crit%) and Crit% you of course get Hit%, and if you subtract that from 100% you get your miss%, which is in line with a 1-roll system.

The Iron Colonel · 06/08/07, 3:09 PM

It's essentially the same equation; the only thing to be wary of is confusing hit% with +hit%. Sorry for complicating that, I tend to have a need to go over things numerous times to make sure they're nailed down, but it seems like we're at a consensus on this now.

Groggan · 06/08/07, 4:04 PM

Hehe, yah, I like to work with Hit% cause it simplifies the equations a bit and is easy to drive (or to just assume is 100% since that is pretty easy to reach wtih in-game items).

Deathcabby · 06/08/07, 4:53 PM

Maybe you can help me. This is the first time I've tried working on a spreadsheet. I've entered all my gear/pet info/etc. and against a level 73 boss w/6000 armor my hunter dps is listed as 729.06 (that's with the Sunfury Bow of the Phoenix). If I switch the weapon to the Wrathfire hand-Cannon, which has 18.8 less dps, my hunter dps is listed at 737.27. I'm a 41/20/0 BM spec and I've got the dwarf gun racial bonus. I also have the Wolfslayer Sniper Rifle and it bumps up the hunter dps to 749.27. I'm thinking it's the racial ability and/or the speed of the gun, but I didn't realize it would make that big of a difference.

Am I missing something here???

Cheeky · 06/08/07, 5:26 PM

Originally Posted by Deathcabby

Maybe you can help me. This is the first time I've tried working on a spreadsheet. I've entered all my gear/pet info/etc. and against a level 73 boss w/6000 armor my hunter dps is listed as 729.06 (that's with the Sunfury Bow of the Phoenix). If I switch the weapon to the Wrathfire hand-Cannon, which has 18.8 less dps, my hunter dps is listed at 737.27. I'm a 41/20/0 BM spec and I've got the dwarf gun racial bonus. I also have the Wolfslayer Sniper Rifle and it bumps up the hunter dps to 749.27. I'm thinking it's the racial ability and/or the speed of the gun, but I didn't realize it would make that big of a difference.

Am I missing something here???

There was a bug in version 18 that had the wrong cast time for Steady Shot, making super-quick weapons look better than they really are. Please try with version 19, you should see more accurate numbers.

Deathcabby · 06/08/07, 6:18 PM

Thanks for the reply Cheeky! I was/am using version 19 and getting the same results:
(with a level 73 boss, this time with 0 armor)
Sunfury Bow of the Phoenix - Hunter DPS (no pet) 1143.70 (weapon speed 2.90, dps 83.3)
Wrathfire Hand Cannon - Hunter DPS (no pet) 1156.57 (weapon speed 2.00, dps 64.5)
Wolfslayer Sniper Rifle - Hunter DPS (no pet) 1175.39 (weapon speed 2.70, dps 79.1)

The Sunfury Bow has the highest dps of those 3 weapons, but it's also the slowest. Dunno if it's still acting funny or not, but I wouldn't think that the dwarf racial bonus to guns would make the Wrathfire gun do more damage than the Sunfury bow.

Cheeky · 06/08/07, 6:42 PM

Originally Posted by Deathcabby

Thanks for the reply Cheeky! I was/am using version 19 and getting the same results:
(with a level 73 boss, this time with 0 armor)
Sunfury Bow of the Phoenix - Hunter DPS (no pet) 1143.70 (weapon speed 2.90, dps 83.3)
Wrathfire Hand Cannon - Hunter DPS (no pet) 1156.57 (weapon speed 2.00, dps 64.5)
Wolfslayer Sniper Rifle - Hunter DPS (no pet) 1175.39 (weapon speed 2.70, dps 79.1)

The Sunfury Bow has the highest dps of those 3 weapons, but it's also the slowest. Dunno if it's still acting funny or not, but I wouldn't think that the dwarf racial bonus to guns would make the Wrathfire gun do more damage than the Sunfury bow.

Try plugging in a non-0 value for lag on the Shot Rotation. I can see the Wolfslayer being a bit better theoretically than the Sunfury. You loose just 11.76 damage from the Steady Shot, but gain a 6.9% greater frequency on Steady Shots. Once your Steady Shot damage is higher than 170 (so, all of us) your going to do more Steady Shot DPS with the Wolfslayer.

Hmm, thinking about this more, if you have no haste effects besides quiver you could achieve a 1.8s cycle with the wrathfire, so your steady shot damage is 52.64 less per shot, but you are getting them at a 31.03% increased rate. The damage cut off is again, ~170 for the Wrathfire to be higher Steady Shot DPS.

If you can get your Steady Shot DPS high enough with the faster weapons it can overcome the autoshot DPS difference (just ~20 between the Wrathfire and Sunfury.) I'm sure we could derive the point this happens for any 2 weapon's speed and DPS values. Of course to do this you are going to bleed mana out of your ass.

The Iron Colonel · 06/08/07, 6:51 PM

Not to mention the massive headache of maintaining that rotation. I guess that pales in comparison to the rectal bleeding, though, when you really think about it.

Deathcabby · 06/08/07, 8:00 PM

Ahh, with even 20ms latency, both the Sunfury and the Wolfslayer stay at their dps, but the Wrathfire drops about 16 dps. Push the latency up to 40ms and the Wrathfire gets even worse, but the other 2 stay the same. Good times. I think I'll try out the Wolfslayer tonight and see how it works =)

Also, I noticed that you didn't have a damage listed for an Owl's screech ability. The highest is Rank 5 and it does 33-61 physical damage (according to wowhead) and costs 20 focus. I tend to use an owl for raids due to the AP debuff. I hear there's a cap to how much you can debuff a boss, although I don't know what it is.

Groggan · 06/09/07, 5:56 PM

So, using Lactose's equation for salying from this thread how doe these equations look:

Auto Shot Damage	
((Crit %) * (2 + (Crit Multiplier) * (1 + Slaying Mod)) * (1 + Slaying Mod) + (Hit % - Crit %)) * (Average Weapon Damage + Scope + Ammo Damage + ((RAP / 14) * Weapon Speed)) * (1 + Damage Modifier) * (1 + Slaying Mod)

Steady Shot Damage	
((Crit %) * (2 + (Crit Multiplier) * (1 + Slaying Mod)) * (1 + Slaying Mod) + (Hit % - Crit %)) * ((.2 * RAP) + 150 + (Weapon DPS * 2.8)) * (1 + Damage Modifier) * (1 + Slaying Mod)

Arcane Shot Damage	
((Crit %) * (2 + (Crit Multiplier) * (1 + Slaying Mod)) * (1 + Slaying Mod) + (Hit % - Crit %)) * ((.15 * RAP) + 273) * (1 + Damage Modifier) * (1 + Slaying Mod)

Multi Shot Damage	
((Crit %) * (2 + (Crit Multiplier) * (1 + Slaying Mod)) * (1 + Slaying Mod) + (Hit % - Crit %)) * (Average Weapon Damage + Scope + Ammo Damage + 205 + ((RAP / 14) * 2.8)) * (1 + Damage Modifier) * (1 + Slaying Mod)
	
Variable Equations	X = Change in Crit %, Y = Change in RAP
Variable Auto Shot Damage	
((Crit % + X) * (2 + (Crit Multiplier) * (1 + Slaying Mod)) * (1 + Slaying Mod) + (Hit % - (Crit % + X))) * (Average Weapon Damage + Scope + Ammo Damage + (((RAP + Y) / 14) * Weapon Speed)) * (1 + Damage Modifier) * (1 + Slaying Mod)

Variable Steady Shot Damage	
((Crit % + X) * (2 + (Crit Multiplier) * (1 + Slaying Mod)) * (1 + Slaying Mod) + (Hit % - (Crit % + X))) * ((.2 * (RAP + Y)) + 150 + (Weapon DPS * 2.8)) * (1 + Damage Modifier) * (1 + Slaying Mod)

Variable Arcane Shot Damage	
((Crit % + X) * (2 + (Crit Multiplier) * (1 + Slaying Mod)) * (1 + Slaying Mod) + (Hit % - (Crit % + X))) * ((.15 * (RAP + Y)) + 273) * (1 + Damage Modifier) + (1 + Slaying Mod)

Variable Multi Shot Damage	
((Crit % + X) * (2 + (Crit Multiplier) * (1 + Slaying Mod)) * (1 + Slaying Mod) + (Hit % - (Crit % + X))) * (Average Weapon Damage + Scope + Ammo Damage + 205 + (((RAP + Y) / 14) * 2.8)) * (1 + Damage Modifier) (1 + Slaying Mod)

Trohck · 06/10/07, 6:03 AM

Originally Posted by Cheeky

I just uploaded version 19 of my spreadsheet. Here is the change log, if anyone is interested:
- Added in my initial modeling of Scorpid Poison.

Not sure if this is intentional, but I'm seeing the "Effective Rate" and "Chance to Maintain" of Scorpid Poison always equal to zero. In the case of Chance to Maintain it appears to be referencing the Scorpid Cooldown variable which is (incorrectly?) set to "Effective Rate" as opposed to the cooldown of 4 seconds.

Cheeky · 06/10/07, 12:56 PM

Originally Posted by Trohck

Not sure if this is intentional, but I'm seeing the "Effective Rate" and "Chance to Maintain" of Scorpid Poison always equal to zero. In the case of Chance to Maintain it appears to be referencing the Scorpid Cooldown variable which is (incorrectly?) set to "Effective Rate" as opposed to the cooldown of 4 seconds.

Do you have Scorpid Poison listed as one of the Prioritized abilities? I take the rate of application from there based on when focus is available. I don't just blindly assume you will always have enough focus to use it.

There are also some errors in there in the DPS calculations if you have it close to focus-starved. I'll work on cleaning them up.

jurgen · 06/10/07, 1:14 PM

Originally Posted by Cheeky

Do you have Scorpid Poison listed as one of the Prioritized abilities? I take the rate of application from there based on when focus is available. I don't just blindly assume you will always have enough focus to use it.

There are also some errors in there in the DPS calculations if you have it close to focus-starved. I'll work on cleaning them up.

when using my scorpid, I found it had a hard time maintaining the all-important debuff when any other dps ability was set to autocast (namely claw). I discussed this with my friend and he told me he turns everything off autocast except scorpid poison and then manually spams claw when FI is about to fade

jurgen · 06/10/07, 2:19 PM

I have a question for Groggan...I downloaded both your spreadsheet and shiorin's the other day. I hope you have shiorin's downloaded, if not you can ignore this post because I don't have a link to it. When I plug the values from my char sheet into her spreadsheet, I find crit rating to be much more effective than agi, as she has stated. However when I do the same in your spreadsheet, I get a significantly different result, specifically agi outweighs crit rating by a wide margin, which is what I would expect to occur.

Any idea why this may be the case? I'd like to note I favor your spreadsheet because when I plug in my values, yours will tell me my paper doll dps which matches what I see on my char sheet in-game

edit: also, to cheeky, you didn't update the speed on gladiator's heavy crossbow. It's currently 3.2, should be 3.1 speed.

Trohck · 06/10/07, 5:42 PM

Originally Posted by Cheeky

Do you have Scorpid Poison listed as one of the Prioritized abilities? I take the rate of application from there based on when focus is available. I don't just blindly assume you will always have enough focus to use it.

There are also some errors in there in the DPS calculations if you have it close to focus-starved. I'll work on cleaning them up.

Thanks, and sorry for the mistake on my part. Just figured this out on my own then came here to delete my post, but you had already responded.