Hunter Spreadsheets -- In development - Page 2

Cheeky · 02/08/07, 6:37 PM

Originally Posted by Lodi

cheeky:

auto starts at 0.0, then steady starts at 0.0 ... you're not adding a .5 sec gap for auto to actually fire?

No, not yet. I'm thinking of making the cooldown the normal cooldown - .5, then making a .5 casting time. That should account for everything.

◊ Lactose · 02/08/07, 7:37 PM

Been busier than I expected, sorry.

Originally Posted by Vec

I was just wondering if you were planning on putting something similar to Blessing of Kings in the Buffs section.

Yup, it's planned.

Originally Posted by Lodi

Lactose, I didn't catch anything about modelling the interference from using arcane and multi (to both steady, and even the autoshot on a quite-fast weapon).

At the moment there's no support for this, still thinking of ways to make the shot / rotation tweaking work as good as possible.

Originally Posted by Shookers

It would be nice if you could include the relative value of Hit Rating as compared to Agility. As of now I've just been assuming it has approximately the same value as Crit Rating, yet I know that cannot be accurate.

It's planned.

Originally Posted by Arganise

Secondly, I'm quite confused with how the Shots fields work (i.e. Seconds between Auto Shots). I have some idea, but it would help alot if you could explain abit how to use it properly.

At this stage, it's very rough and extremely likely to be scrapped / revamped completely, so I'm hesitant of documenting it atm. If it's archaic to you, don't worry about it, things will be sorted out a bit later.

Originally Posted by Auxilium

Back when the first changes were announced I briefly considered *not* taking the Improved Arcane Shot talent. Have you been considering any potentional benefits of a 6 sec Arcane Shot over 5 sec Arcane Shots? Being able to spend 5 points elsewhere might improve overall performance. I know this is not directly related to the spreadsheet, but then it would affect your cycle.

Personally I think Improved Arcane Shot might be a bit of a waste compared to the other options, at least for raiding purposes.

Originally Posted by tict

So Lactose thanks for the spreadsheet. Quick question though, as noted above would it be correct to believe that a quick ranged weapon is really that much better then a slow/medium speed one?

If you're able to shoot like you've input, it should be accurate. However, I kinda highly doubt you're able to perform the abilities that perfect, making fast weapons not all that godlike.

Originally Posted by Azulor

1. The formulas for both arcane shot average and multishot average appear incorrect. For example, B176 upon simplification appears to return B175*B151, which is Multishot crit. This explains why changing entries in Improved Barrage have no impact on the final DPS calculations. Likewise, B164 returns B163*B151, basically arcane crit.

This is fixed locally, but not yet uploaded.

2. The logical statements you use to build the raw numbers from row 157 onwards are sensitive to B94 and B97, which are sensitive to B29 and B31 (also the C column for new DPS I suppose). You might want to change the default return on, for example, B97/C97 and B94/C94 to be max rank because as written with no entries in B29/C29 and B31/C31, the arcane and multishot damage gets computed as zero literally (not simply min zero added damage).

I don't have the spreadsheet open in front of me right now, so I'll have to check this a bit later.

Originally Posted by taurenhunter

I would like to make a suggestion: to put names on the relevant Excel columns/cells.

Nice idea, I'll see what I can do, even though it forces me to come up with sensible names for the cells ;)

I'd also like to thank Glaurong for the formula; credit where credit is due ;)

Also... someone asked me earlier if I'm German, due to some WAHR / FALSCH stuff... No, I'm not, nor do I have a German spreadsheet program installed, so I have no idea where this is from :P

Ato · 02/09/07, 6:02 AM

Sorry, but I forget. Is the RAP at the top of the spreadsheet your base RAP without either Hawk or TSA? And, do you add these to the RAP buffs below?

◊ Lactose · 02/09/07, 6:35 AM

With.
When I get more talent stuff implemented (as in, different talent setups), it'll be without TSA, but for now just include it.

Cheeky · 02/09/07, 11:30 AM

Version 4 of my spreadsheet is available for download.

List of changes:
- Using Glau's equation for Improved Aspect of the Hawk uptime.
- Fixed trinkets/racials in shot rotation.
- Included Karazhan gear, what I could locate stats for.
- Added in 0.5 second cast time for auto shot (removing it from auto shot cooldown.)
- Added The Beast Within.

As always comments, criticisms, and ideas are always welcome.

Auxilium · 02/11/07, 8:02 AM

On a side note, I found that Excel spreadsheets that contain any TRUE/FALSE like formulas will load in the user's language, which would've changed it to WAHR/FALSCH for the German user and WAAR/ONWAAR for me and any other Dutch users :)

• Lozzleskotch · 02/11/07, 3:56 PM

I'm debating whether to switch from Scryers to Aldor just for the shoulder enchant (20 AP 15 crit for scryer, 30 AP 10 crit for aldor). On your spreadsheet the Scryer one is only better at very high levels of RAP and low levels of crit. I don't think I'll ever be running 5k AP and 15% crit, so the Aldor one would be a better choice.

Lactose, how accurate do you think your spreadsheet is right now? I'd hate to switch over and then find out there's an error and the Scryer one is better.

Edit: one other thing, could the extra crit coupled with GFTT tip the scales in favor of the Scryer enchant? I think I'll take this up in the main hunter thread.

Sienna · 02/11/07, 9:47 PM

The one problem with improved aspect of the hawk is that the simulator values are only true if you are not delaying your autoshots. In raiding, you can go on for a while with delaying all your autoshots due to multi/arcane/steady. My bow speed is 2.43 after quiver but I highly doubt I'm shooting 123 autoshots in a 5 minute boss fight. Probably a lot less. Not to mention the majority of that proc can go wasted due to movements in boss fights. I have 5/5 IAOTH but I'm thinking to replace it with the last 2 points in unleashed fury and 1 in ferocity. The pet is doing a handful of damage now.

◊ Lactose · 02/12/07, 5:28 AM

Originally Posted by Lozzleskotch

Lactose, how accurate do you think your spreadsheet is right now? I'd hate to switch over and then find out there's an error and the Scryer one is better.

Disregarding a couple of minor bugs that I've corrected locally (Focused Fire not being applied, corrected average damage for Multi-Shot and Arcane Shot), and the stuff I obviously haven't added yet (lots of talents, pet stuff, etc), it should be pretty darn accurate, to be honest.
My main problem is finding a way to put numbers on shots; how many you use and how long it takes (DPS issues...). Basically, if you input stuff and you're able to reproduce that "rotation" ingame, it should be accurate.
Keep in mind I haven't documented it all yet though, so you might be missing something I'm not seeing ;)

At the moment I feel like I'm at a minor road block with those shots. No ETA on new update.

Breakerone · 02/12/07, 7:01 AM

Originally Posted by Cheeky

Version 4 of my spreadsheet is available for download.

List of changes:
- Using Glau's equation for Improved Aspect of the Hawk uptime.
- Fixed trinkets/racials in shot rotation.
- Included Karazhan gear, what I could locate stats for.
- Added in 0.5 second cast time for auto shot (removing it from auto shot cooldown.)
- Added The Beast Within.

As always comments, criticisms, and ideas are always welcome.

I think its a very nice sheet wit a lot of work in it. I have one little suggestion. You even went through the trouble to enter the colors of slots of the items with their respective socket bonus. As far as I'm concerned I find it hard to see a use in socketing the sockets with something else then red gems, maybe a yellow one here and there. But using blue ones, which appear a lot makes me loose more dps then the socket bonus can compensate, if the bonus gives dps at all.
So it would be great if you left the option to use all kinds of gems for any slot.

You also might want to add the shoulder and head enchants from the various rep rewards.

Also stats for other races besides trolls and NE's would be great ;)

Cheeky · 02/12/07, 7:10 PM

Originally Posted by Breakerone

I think its a very nice sheet wit a lot of work in it. I have one little suggestion. You even went through the trouble to enter the colors of slots of the items with their respective socket bonus. As far as I'm concerned I find it hard to see a use in socketing the sockets with something else then red gems, maybe a yellow one here and there. But using blue ones, which appear a lot makes me loose more dps then the socket bonus can compensate, if the bonus gives dps at all.
So it would be great if you left the option to use all kinds of gems for any slot.

Yeah, I really should do that. I'll try and have it in the next version. It actually makes my job easier if I don't separate out the colors.

Originally Posted by Breakerone

You also might want to add the shoulder and head enchants from the various rep rewards.

I have already started doing that. I have the Aldor/Scryer in my version. I just need to find all the other ones available. Please let me know if you know of any of the others you would like to see.

Originally Posted by Breakerone

Also stats for other races besides trolls and NE's would be great ;)

Since I only play a Troll, I can only get stats for that. Please provide your race/stats and I will gladly add them. I could bug my guildmates enough to get level 70 stats for Tauran and Orc, but I don't know any Alliance.

In general, if gear/echants/stats are missing it is because I do not know about them. Anyone can provide that information and I will update it. Also, if anyone sees any mistakes (especially in calculations) please let me know about them so I can correct them as soon as possible.

Djinn · 02/14/07, 1:31 AM

Lactose - when i change your +hit tab to anything over 6%. DPS/damage doesn't change, bug or? and when i put the +hit to 6% and add 20+hit rating to the new item tab and the current item tab +hit rating is 0 the current dps/damage is still higher, little confused, isnt our hit cap 9 and the damage should go up?

◊ Lactose · 02/14/07, 2:45 AM

Originally Posted by Djinn

Lactose - when i change your +hit tab to anything over 6%. DPS/damage doesn't change, bug or?

Adjustments based on Mob Level / Weapon Skill aren't implemented yet.

and when i put the +hit to 6% and add 20+hit rating to the new item tab and the current item tab +hit rating is 0 the current dps/damage is still higher

Sounds strange. I'll note it down and check later.

Djinn · 02/14/07, 3:05 AM

I can send screenshot also if u dont get same result

pf · 02/14/07, 10:55 AM

Originally Posted by Cheeky

Since I only play a Troll, I can only get stats for that. Please provide your race/stats and I will gladly add them. I could bug my guildmates enough to get level 70 stats for Tauran and Orc, but I don't know any Alliance.

You can derive base lvl 70 stats for all races based on the information you have.
Each race gets exactly the same stats as they level up, so just figure out how much you gained from lvl 1 and use that number and add it to the base value which is listed on this page to determine the lvl 70 stats of other races.

http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/classes/hunter/

Lodi · 02/14/07, 4:32 PM

This seems like a good place to ask:

What is the cap on "chance to hit % vs lvl 70" listed on char sheet (or hit rating with 350 weapon skill, equivalently) for:

lvl 70

lvl 71

lvl 72

?

I've seen people report numbers for (non dual-wield) melee, but I recall ranged attacks being a percent or so higher.

• Keltan · 02/14/07, 4:45 PM

1% Hit = 15.8 Hit Rate @ Level 70.

For a level 70 opponent you would need +5% hit to eliminate misses, or 79 Hit Rate.
For a level 71 opponent you would need +6.2% hit to eliminate misses, or 98 Hit Rate.
For a level 72 opponent you would need +7.4% hit to eliminate misses, or 117 Hit Rate.
For a level 73 opponent you would need +8.6% hit to eliminate misses, or 136 Hit Rate.

For the weapon skill stuff:
1 weapon skill = 3.9 weapon skill rate = 0.24% hit

1 weapon skill rate = 0.256 weapon skill = 0.0615% hit per point of weapon skill rate

Breakerone · 02/15/07, 7:03 AM

Originally Posted by Keltan

1% Hit = 15.8 Hit Rate @ Level 70.

For a level 70 opponent you would need +5% hit to eliminate misses, or 79 Hit Rate.
For a level 71 opponent you would need +6.2% hit to eliminate misses, or 98 Hit Rate.
For a level 72 opponent you would need +7.4% hit to eliminate misses, or 117 Hit Rate.
For a level 73 opponent you would need +8.6% hit to eliminate misses, or 136 Hit Rate.

For the weapon skill stuff:
1 weapon skill = 3.9 weapon skill rate = 0.24% hit

1 weapon skill rate = 0.256 weapon skill = 0.0615% hit per point of weapon skill rate

Actually I was always curious about that. As far as I understand there is always 1% miss rate left, no matter what you do. Having that in mind, does it make sense to try to get the last % at all?

◊ Lactose · 02/15/07, 7:09 AM

Originally Posted by Breakerone

Actually I was always curious about that. As far as I understand there is always 1% miss rate left, no matter what you do. Having that in mind, does it make sense to try to get the last % at all?

You can have way below 1% miss rate, measured over tens of thousands of shots. If there is a constant miss rate for us that can't be prevented, it's something like 0.1% or so, not worth thinking about.

Breakerone · 02/15/07, 7:43 AM

Good to know, thanks. Dont know where I got that from...

Avellyr · 02/15/07, 12:13 PM

Probably from the fact that it actually does work that way for spell hits.

• Lozzleskotch · 02/19/07, 11:20 PM

The intellect under "Current Items" isn't being affected Careful Aim. If you go from 2 intellect to 1 intellect you lose overall damage, but it actually shows a gain in DPS as if you were going from 0 intellect to 1 intellect. It works fine for the current/new weapon, though.

• Lurchington · 02/20/07, 4:41 PM

Originally Posted by tict

The numbers I am seeing are 830 DPS versus 912 DPS, quite a huge difference IMO.
I was under the impression because I am speced for multi shot dmg, the slower wep would help me do more dmg per MS.

If I'm reading this right, weapon speed won't help you much since aimed shot and multi-shot were both normalized to assume 2.8 weapon speed when it comes to the RAP contribution.