Cheeky

The Shot Rotation has a couple of modeling weak points, and your specific comparisons hit them pretty squarely.

1) There is no allowance for lag. I have had a request for this, and I am going to allow users in the next version to specify a delay to be added to all triggerable cast start times. Putting 0.1 or 0.2 seconds in for that should lower the HW bow DPS by quite a bit.

2) I model IAotH by averaging out the haste gains into a static effect. What this does is put each autoshot cooldown and Steady Shot cast time into a "middle ground" that is not achievable in the game. You are either not in Quick Shots, in which case everything is slower; or you are, and things are much quicker (and the HW bow clips every auto shot, nullifying the benefit entirely.)

Your specific example looks real good because you have a 0 second reaction time, and the averaged Autoshot cycle time for the HW is 1.45 seconds. But Steady Shot cast time is averaged to 1.21 seconds. In effect the HW bow is clipping each autoshot by 1.21 - (1.45 - 0.5) = .17 seconds. If you have even a slight lag/reaction time this is going to be much worse, and the bow looks as crappy at level 70 as it really is.

To really see what the normal cast times are I would recommend turning off Hawk as an aspect on the Shot Rotation and adding 155 RAP to the Gear page's hand adjustment field to get a better idea of the shot times. This will turn off the IAotH effects without costing you the RAP.

Cheeky of Havoc

 

Jezele

Turning off IAotH won't change the relative comparisons since the haste effect modifies both the autoshot and steady shot times. Being able to factor in lag time (or simply modifying the weapon/shot speeds by a small amount) would certainly help produce more "real world" results. One temporary workaround would be to find a slightly slower speed weapon, calculate the shot rotation, then switch back to the actual weapon, so I may give that a shot to see what sort of values that gives me.

Thanks for the response and I look forward to further tweaks.

 

Cheeky

Improved Aspect of the Hawk scales based on weapon speed. A faster bow gets more benefit from it than a slower bow. It does not even out between a 3.2s Gladiator's and a 1.6s High Warlord's Recurve.

Cheeky of Havoc

 

Charky

For the past couple weeks I've been working on developing my own spreadsheet, mostly for my own enjoyment and use. I take all the stats on an item and convert them to their equivalent value in Attack Power. I don't, however, use a static value for each stat, but I calculate it using partial derivatives of the damage formulae. When I had started working on it, I didn't see a spreadsheet that came at it from this angle.

The spreadsheet itself is similar to Lactose's in that you manually enter your stats and the stats for the items you want to compare, however I also provide a section for you to input your own shot rotation (it must repeat), as it can play a role in the relative value of a stat. In the talents section, it is currently set for the proposed talents in 2.1.

Anyhow, just thought I'd share.


http://www.teamcaustic.com/uploads-b...%20Calc100.xls


I sincerely apologize if this post is incoherent. I'm more than a little tired.

 

helias126

Cheeky,

1) There is no allowance for lag. I have had a request for this, and I am going to allow users in the next version to specify a delay to be added to all triggerable cast start times. Putting 0.1 or 0.2 seconds in for that should lower the HW bow DPS by quite a bit.


Isnt't it true that if u mash the Steady shot.auto shot macro you have 0 DPS loss even if your latency is 400 ms?
That means that Consortium blaster and all other fast weapons > everything in game atm?
Or latency can affect the button mashing macro too?
I own Sunfury and Gladiators btw but i am after the Rifle from Doomwalker for PvE , 41/20/0 spec.

 

Cheeky

Lag is irrespective of the macro. Just because you mash it continuously and get it to trigger as soon as the client allows you to does not mean the server gets it at the same time. If it takes 200 ms for the client to communicate to the server you see a 200 ms delay in whatever you do.

This is why for high-latency environments it is better to hand-cast your shots and time the Steady Shot so you press the key before the autoshot timer has expired. The latency from your client to the sever allows the server time to complete the effects of the autoshot cast and then processes your Steady cast immediately. Of course, if you go too early you just interrupt the auto and get the clobbered auto shots we're all such big fans of.

I believe latency will always punish faster weapons more than slower weapons. Unless you happen to be playing on the same LAN as the sever.

Cheeky of Havoc

 

helias126

Thanks for the answer mate.
Can't wait for the next version of your calculator with the latency included
Also please include Barel-Blade Longrifle on it!
Also missing Assasins fire opal in the gems.

 

Apteryx

Cheeky,

Just started fiddling with your spreadsheet, and I have to thank you for the time you've put into it so far.

One thing I did note however, is that version 11 is missing the pants I am currently wearing, the Chimaerascale legguards of the Bandit - http://www.wowhead.com/?item=31210

They are one of the most commonly dropped random enchant blues from Nuramoc, and aren't half bad. I'd appreciate it if you included them in further releases

 

vorda

I hope I'm not asking too much with this:

We have some really really stubborn hunters. I've been getting a debate started about their dps (some use AoTV and AS+MS spam.. :'( constantly clipping autoshots aswell) and already posted some tips about steadyshot/auto macro and the spreadsheet.

Still, I dont think the information I gave them was enough. Would it be possible to set up a small list of tips ('best practices: hunter dps' if you must :p )? If they dont believe that what you say is true, I'll just scan every hunter topic on this forum -again- and slap them with math.

Much appreciated

ps: I've used the search function and has read most of the latest hunter topics, but my knowledge about hunters is far from sufficient to come up with this kind of 'small list'.

 

Osse

Vorda I believe it's time to get new hunters if they're so arrogant. Had two hunters in guild in vanilla wow that just didnt want to learn anything so they got kicked eventually.

 

vorda

Nah, they'd be willing if pushed hard enough, it just hurts me to see some of them spam AS+MS highest rank with AoTV and no pot usage..
(I'm running WWS on all our dps from now on :p )

Just need some baselines.. Like: Dont even bother using AS/MS with a 2.6 or faster (pre quiver) bow. (if this is even correct?)

 

• Glaurong

I'd say minimum you would want them to:

1) Get LittleTrouble or zHuntermod. Something to give them an auto shot cast bar.

2) Use a steady shot in between each auto shot. If they resist getting an auto shot cast bar, have them use the following macro. They can just mash it to the same effect.

3) Use their pet on every fight, there are very few fights where it should be just chilling next to them.

4) Use Aspect of the Hawk and make sure they have the Improved Aspect of the Hawk talent.

They wont be doing top tier DPS but its better than what you describe and won't take a lot of effort.

 

The Iron Colonel

Cheeky:
I've been toying around with your spreadsheet a bit, and I was wondering if there's a way to access the gear lists. While I CAN use the hand adjustment, it's not the most convenient way to do things. If possible, can you give users more clear access to the gear lists? There are a number of items I'd like to add, but it's unclear to me how to even access the list. Along the same lines, is it possible for users to help update the gear library to keep in up to date while alleviating some of the work for you? If not, I understand. Thanks for the work you've already done.

 

Jezele

I think this would be a great idea as well. I realize that it'd create a slew of new tabs (since based on your calculations, you have a separate tab for each gear slot), but I think the additional customization would be useful.

A couple of other potential improvements (other than the latency issue that I know you're already working on) would be the addition of standard buffs (including kings, which requires a bit more hardcoding) and factoring in glancing blows/dodges/parries for pet DPS. A method of direct gear comparison might also be helpful as well (i.e. look at the change in DPS if swapping one piece of gear for another).

 

Cheeky

I have been hesitant to open up the gearing sections for a bunch of reasons. The largest of these are selfishness. If I let anyone go ahead and fix the mistakes and ommisions I'll never learn about them. Right now I get a few messages a week of things that are missing or wrong. I can then fix/add those changes and re-release. To me everyone wins that way. (And I am an incredible control freak, and like protecting the mind-numbing hours it took to input and maintain that data.)

There was a movement a while a go to standardize the gear lists in the various spreadsheets. Does anyone know what happened to that effort?

Here is a preview of the features already implemented for version 12. I am holding off on releasing it because it has all the 2.1 changes in it.
- Corrected bug in Expose Weakness. Updated rates to 2.1 talents
- Added Combra Reflexes
- Modeled Kill Command DPS. See thread on TKASomething for explanation of the math.
- Modeled new Hunter's Mark. (currently as having to be reapplied, but will just assume 440 RAP with changes on PTR.)
- Added armor mitigation to pet's attacks.
- Added in Gronnstalker Armor for shits and giggles.
- Added Raid Buffs. Blessings/elixirs/flasks/etc. Enforce 2 Elixirs or 1 flask rule. R2.1 flask stats, and added in buffs for pets.
- Added in Helath/Mana enchants for chest
- Added Dodge and Glancing Blow calculations to pet's DPS.
- Changed Survival Instincts to be as it is in 2.1 (Better per point than Master Marksman in a lower part of the tree...)
- All pet data sheets have been hidden to reduce clutter.
- Calculations for Romulo's Poison Vial have been added. This just computes DPS gain right now, but is not factored into DPS listed for the Hunter.

I guess there are quite a few changes. Now would be a good time to ask for new stuff.

Cheeky of Havoc

 

helias126

<3 <3
Kudos for all the great work mate, thanks a lot

 

The Iron Colonel

I like the new change so far (although I haven't had a chance to review the TKAsomething thread on kill command yet, but I'm sure the model they used is valid, based on reputation alone). Couple questions:

1) Have you considered adding a "pet raid buff" section? When I'm raiding I annoy the shit out of our druids priests and paladins to buff my pet, which helps his DPS (most notably Blessing of Might and Battle Shout).

2) I understand your reasons for not opening access to gear lists. I like that they are currently hidden because it does tidy things up a bit. I'll put together a list of notable items not in the list for you to add.

3) Have you modeled haste/AP procs? I am not seeing any information regarding Dragonspine or Hourglass (the two I'm currently looking at). Is this a matter of not having a valid model or simply not being implemented?

4) In a different thread we discussed some pet calculation issues, notably incorrectly calculating damage per focus for gore and failing to account for player crit rate/unleashed rage (apparently? not sure what the issue is here). Have these issues been addressed?

I'll add more suggestions/comments as they occur to me. Thanks for all the effort you've put into the spreadsheet.

 

Jezele

Can't say I blame you. A possible compromise would be to add a tab for the addition of a limited number of new items (for example, a block of 3-5 for each gear slot that would be reflected on each of your hidden tabs). This would prevent mucking with your hard work while still allowing atypical (green resist pieces, for example) or theoretical items to be compared.

Wow, lots of nice additions! You didn't include latency in your list, which is the change I'm most interested in, but I think you've already said that it'll be included in your next version. (Sidenote, did you model it by adding latency to the cast time of every non-autoshot?)

When hiding tabs, you might also consider hiding the Race and Level tabs as well (Level could be combined with the Calculations page if you wanted it visible).

Oh, and one possible error: Ravager is listed as not having bite, when Petopia says it's a trainable skill. I haven't trained one myself, so not sure which is accurate. Also, Gore will need the 1.5x damage modifier.

Thanks again for all your effort, this really is a quality piece of work!

Good catch! Also, I'm not sure if you're set up for including Kings as one of your raid buffs, but this is a pretty common one that'd be helpful to have included (especially since it effects so many variables).

 

Cheeky

1) Pet Buffs are there. I had a specific request from someone for Battleshout. I'm sure I've missed some, but I tend to get feedback to that rather quickly.

3) I have no clue how to model the Hourglass. It's difficult with a hidden cooldown. If you can get me reliable numbers for the cooldown duration, and rate of proc afterwards (wither proc per minute or stright chance on crit) I'll give it a go. I have a whole infrastructure in place for haste effects, but I have little rate information on the Dragonspine Throphy too.

4) I fixed gore, that was pretty easy. I must have missed issues with Unleashed Rage. Player Crit only comes into play for Go For the Throat and Kill Command, as far as I can figure it out. Can you explain what you thing is wrong/missing?

I am teaching myself Excel as I do this, this being my first real spreadsheet of any kind besides simple math. I'm not sure how I can specify a Validation list to incorporate columns among multiple sheets. It's something I can look into though.

Yeah, it's there. Right now it increases the start time of every non-autoshot, exactly like you figured. I have to also add it to Kill COmmand too, but that would be a very small difference maker.


Fixed gore. I'll check into Ravager. Without Bite it is a lesser DPS pet than Wind Serpent or Cat I'd assume. Bite is very efficient in converting Focus to damage.

I actually separate out additive vs. multiplicitive (is that a word?) buffs and talents, and combine them separately. This was the only simple way I could figure out to account for Kings.

Cheeky of Havoc

 

Jezele

I haven't worked much with drop-down lists myself, but something that might work is to simply add a few lines at the end of your current gear lists that simply refer to the custom gear page. Include those referencing lines from your individual tabs in your drop-down list (i.e. widen the range to include those extra lines) and then you don't have to worry about directly looking up from multiple tabs. (NB: It may require that the custom lists all receive dummy names for selection purposes, such as Neck 1, Neck 2, etc.)

 

The Iron Colonel

I'm not sure the best method for modeling dragonspine trophy. One method would be to determine the average added haste, but given the low attack speeds that you get with BM this may not yield accurate results (that is to say that you are required to adjust your rotation to priority when speed gets too low to avoid clipping autoshots). If you're willing to accept that as a simplistic model (it would probably not be representative of a real life situation due to the adjusted rotation) I reckon it's around 9% time averaged haste (325 haste * 10s/60 s/m*1.7ppm = 92 haste rating = 8.76% haste). Honestly, though, I'm not sure what the best method of m