matthra

I'm excited to hear about the features in the new version,when do you think we will be able to test it ou?

 

Cheeky

Would people want it before 2.1? I can probably release it tomorrow. The gear stats for changed items will all be wrong, but the chances of me catching them all even a week after release is minimal. Just post here or send me pms for what needs fixing. Item changes are easy, and I can release updated versions almost daily.

Cheeky of Havoc

 

Aesa

I'd love to see the spreadsheet before the patch is actually live... I'm looking forward to seeing how the Surestrike Goggles v2.0 fit into my set of gear. Thanks!

 

helias126

Would love to see a new version with shot rotations adjusted with latency

 

Cheeky

Ok, version 12 is available. There are quite a few changes in this release, and I've converted over as much as I could think of to use 2.1's mechanics.

The biggest differences are Hunter's Mark, Survival Talents, Kill Command, and Hunter/pet buffs.

Please let me know what errors you find in gear, talents, math, spelling, methodology, or layout.

Enjoy! (Same link as always)

Cheeky of Havoc

 

◊ Lactose

I'll edit my initial post to include links to other spreadsheets listed in this thread.
It'll be a bit later today though, lots of stuff on my mind.

Look, Lactose, we'd rather you didn't eradicate the whole human race.
- Sam & Max

 

matthra

You guys rock, thanks for tkaing the time to put these together.

 

The Iron Colonel

One feature that might be nice would be one to account for stacking on hunter's mark. As you're already figuring out the timing on the first 50 (if I recall correctly) shots of the rotation, it wouldn't be difficult to account for hunter's mark at each shot interval. I include this only for completeness - I'm not sure it would really make that large a difference.

Edit: sorry, missed that you had released the new version a few posts back. I guess this could go in the next release then.

 

Ernesti

Great spreadsheet Cheeky.

There is one flaw in the new expose weakness uptime calculation. If I put 0 points in it, it gives 100% of the 25% agi bonus. And as you put more points to it, the proc bonus gets smaller. I.e. 229 AP with 0 points in EW and 200 AP with 3 points.

 

Cheeky

I must not have saved the fix for that when I did it....

Re-released with that fixed again. My original equation tried to do too much. I have broken it down now into 1/4 Agility, EW up time, and effective benefit.

Sorry about the confusion, I need better source control on my end!

Cheeky of Havoc

 

• Keltan

Cheeky, have you worked 2.10 Kill Command into your spreadsheet yet?

I just took a look at your latest spreadsheet (12:21, May 2nd) and crit rating is coming up as a smaller dps increase than it was in the "version 11" of your spreadsheet. I was expecting a solid increase in the dps value of crit rating with Kill Command being removed from the GCD and now actually worth using for max dps. Insted, it's actually showing up as weaker.

 

Rius

Cheeky:

Looks like you've got Flask of Mighty Restoration giving 25 Mana, instead of 25 MP5. Just a head's up =) Thanks for your work on this so far.

 

Cheeky

If you'd like to send me a pm with specific talents/gear/gems/enchants I can look at it and maybe see why the numbers might be different. I have a copy of version 11 still, so I can compare everything.

Cheeky of Havoc

 

◊ Lactose

Check first post =)
Anything else someone would want me to edit in?

Look, Lactose, we'd rather you didn't eradicate the whole human race.
- Sam & Max

 

Norwest

Very nice spreadsheet.

I'd really like to improve the iAotH calculations, I'm too German to accept the approximations. I'm going to try and math it from an individual shot standpoint. I want to improve the calculations, no offence is intended to those who did the current calculations.

But first I want to clarify the mechanics of iAotH so we are all on the same page.

- iAoth has a 10% chance to proc on auto shot
- It procs the instant the shot leaves the bow, so travel time is not an issue.
- The first shot (the shot it procs off) does NOT receive the haste bonus (I tested this awhile ago, but not 100% sure)
- If the proc expires directly after an auto, the auto will still receive the haste bonus, the next auto will not be hastened.

 

◊ Lactose

I reccommend you read Glaurong's posts on the first page.

Look, Lactose, we'd rather you didn't eradicate the whole human race.
- Sam & Max

 

Norwest

I've read it, and I have a problem with it. The effect of iAotH with bow speed is not continuous. For example, with a 2.80 and Serpent's swiftness you get 7 fast shots inside a proc. With a 2.70 you get 8 fast shots. That makes the difference between 2.70 -> 2.80 is much larger than 2.60 -> 2.70 and the current formula doesn't capture that. I think I can improve on Glaurong's calculations.

The only thing I'm unsure on is this:
- The first shot (the shot it procs off) does NOT receive the haste bonus (I tested this awhile ago, but not 100% sure)

But I'll make up a spreadsheet that toggles that.

 

• Lurchington

As of now, I'm leaving my item list spreadsheet, coinciding with letting my account lapse. It's not terribly complicated, so if anyone out there enjoyed it and would be interested in keeping it updated, make sure to post it here

It was a good way to procrastinate.

 

Cheeky

I'm not really happy with what we have for Improved Aspect of the Hawk either, but we need something that can average out the effects over time. Glaurong simulated millions of battles to derive his equations, I trust the results based on his methodology. I do agree that modeling an all-or-nothing effect with a average is not ideal.

I hope you do come up with a better way to model it. If you do I'd love to incorporate it into my spreadsheet. Please post your model and thought process here. There are a lot of smart people (Lactose, Glau, etc.) who might be able to help you out.

Cheeky of Havoc

 

The Iron Colonel

Time averaging is a valid method of modeling a probabilistic effect over a very large sample size. Unfortunately, I think the issue here is that given the mechanics that hunters have (i.e. shot rotations that do not proportionately scale down with haste due to GCD/clipping problems) you will see increasing divergence between theory and practice as speed scales down. It seems to me that the best method of modeling would be discrete modeling (which is essentially what Glau did in his simulations). Unfortunately, discrete simulation can't be done easily by a spreadsheet. Unless someone wants to write simulation software (which, to me, would be the most accurate way to do things, but also the least convenient to revise) that takes information from a character sheet and then simulates an arbitrarily large number of combat sequences to determine average dps, we pretty much are going to have to live with approximate models based on continuous functions.

Perhaps this belongs in the hunter mechanics thread, but I'll share it here [admin move it if deemed necessary]; one thought that has been rolling around inside my skull for a while is modeling the shot rotation as overlapping waveforms. I haven't fleshed out the idea completely (or, in my opinion, adequately enough to warrant sharing yet, but nonetheless...), but depending on your first shot you can model autoshot as either a sine or cosine function of attack speed (For example, values of 1 would correspond to autoshot fires whereas values of -1 would be 90 degrees out of phase with auto shot - the ideal time to fire a special shot). Likewise, any shot in your rotation can be modeled using sine or cosine (again, depending on which shot you lead with; ideally values of 1 would correspond to a value of -1 on the autoshot waveform). The real bugaboo seems, to me, to be determining how to best use such a model. Perhaps someone can share thoughts regarding this (or am I way out in left field on this one)?

 

Norwest

Here's my thinking:

We can calculate the average length of a 'no-proc streak' That's easy, it's just 10 shots since it's a 1/10 chance.

Then we can calculate the length of a 'proc steak' or how many hastened shots we get when iAotH does proc. It's slightly more complex because it will proc off itself.

If you have the averge # of shots in a 'no-proc streak' and the average number of shots in a 'proc streak' then it's a simple to find the effect of the procs. The thing I really like about this, is that the average effect is the same for close bow speeds which makes intuitive sense to me.

I'll crunch some #'s and post a formula.

 

◊ Lactose

I've been thinking about Improved Aspect of The Hawk as well these days. I'll give it some thought during the weekend and see what I come up with, and if what I come up with matches what other people get :P

As for the waveforms thinking... Correct me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't the best time to shoot a special be immediately after Auto Shot, not when Auto Shot is in the middle of cooling down (i.e. -1 isn't the best time to fire)?
I'm not used to thinking in waveforms, so if I'm misunderstanding something here, please interpret or poke me with a link as to where I can read up on it =)

Also, I have no idea how you'd incorporate casting time of Steady Shot, as well as the delay of Auto Shot after a special with that kind of thinking...

Edit: Oh, forgot to answer this:
If shot x procs Quick Shots (Improved Aspect of the Hawk proc), shot x+1 is the first shot to be influenced by the haste effect.

Look, Lactose, we'd rather you didn't eradicate the whole human race.
- Sam & Max

 

• Glaurong

You are oversimplifying, the length of a 'no-proc streak' as you put it is variable. A variable number of hasted shots can lie within this streak, this makes any simple calculation impossible. Which is why I went with a simulation.

 

The Iron Colonel

That's a good point, I guess I was unclear on that. You certainly wouldn't want to start a shot 90 degrees out of phase with an auto, but rather at some point during that gap (I used 90 degrees out of phase as a rough ideal point, since obviously that's exactly the midpoint between two autoshots). I know enough about waveforms to poke around, but it's certainly not my specialty. I only mention it because, as I said, it occurs to me that more often than not the shot rotation (or, at least, the BM rotation of priority replacement) resembles out of phase waveforms. A MM rotation with two specials would certainly be an interesting set of waveforms - one that I'm by no means going to tackle in the near term.

As for the casting time, it's somewhat simple: the casting time is a function of haste and you can tell when you need to start casting by subtracting the time for casting from the time at which you need to fire to maintain a non-clipped rotation. As I said, I am very very far from fleshing this out, it's the germ of an idea currently. It may not be worth pursuing, but I thought I would get comments/suggestions.

 

◊ Lactose