Hunter Spreadsheets -- In development - Page 51

Joheltro · 01/18/08, 1:09 PM

Originally Posted by Thorongil

You say you are using a 1:1-rotation? I can´t seem to find a reason for not using 1:1.5 as SV. You should normally be lacking 25 - 30 % of total shots compared to 1:1.5

I also feel the autoshot-mechanic has somewhat changed but has it even become viable for SV-hunters to go 1:1?

Well its not a 1:1, but more like 1:2 as it shots 1 auto, then two steady without (!) delay between them before an autoshot again. So it actually clips your sutoshots, BUT it queue up the std to go without delay, so you increase you dps alot compared with a 1:1. It burns alot more mana, but the dps is worth it. But as I understand it, it isnt much of an dps increase for BM becasue of they very high speed, but for slower SV and MM its pretty good. Especially for when there is a CC up. Cant come close to its DPS with a auto, steady, arcane rotation.

Originally Posted by Cheeky

My spreadsheet doesn't model macros, it models shot rotations. If you can figure out what the shot rotation of that macro looks like for you, you can hand select the shots in the same order.

Well I tried that, but you spreadsheet make a delay ( even if I set latency to 0 ) between the steadyshots. And thats the whole point of this new macro. It makes no delay between the steadyshots, it quese them up instead. Much like casters that set of the next cast just before the previous is done. So if you could make an option to remove the delay, I could set it up myself, but not as it is now.

MasterZeus · 01/18/08, 5:28 PM

Originally Posted by Joheltro

I'd love to see the new steady rotation as an option in your most excellent spreadsheet if posible.

I used it in the last SSC raid I was in with good results as an SV hunter. I have prior always used the 1:1,5 rotation, but wanted to see how good/bad the new rotation was in a raid enviroment. I was surprised to see just how good it was...

WWS report : WWS Loading...

Im the #3 on that list, with a DPS on 975. I linked the report anonymously to not disclose my fellow raiders.
The other two hunters are BM specced.

I've been trying to find a good parse of this new macro and see how well it works, so I was excited to see you post one that you said worked well. When I use the new macro, I get very few autoshots and tons of steady shots in a row. So I looked at your Tidewalker (stand and shoot fight) and this is what I see (Wow Web Stats)

21:46'32.225 Titan's Auto Shot hits Morogrim Tidewalker for 811
21:46'33.432 Titan's Steady Shot hits Morogrim Tidewalker for 809
21:46'34.780 Titan's Steady Shot crits Morogrim Tidewalker for 1970
21:46'35.127 Titan's Auto Shot hits Morogrim Tidewalker for 842
21:46'36.325 Titan's Steady Shot hits Morogrim Tidewalker for 793
21:46'38.150 Titan's Steady Shot hits Morogrim Tidewalker for 818
21:46'39.467 Titan's Steady Shot crits Morogrim Tidewalker for 2053
21:46'40.773 Titan's Steady Shot crits Morogrim Tidewalker for 2105
21:46'41.975 Titan's Steady Shot hits Morogrim Tidewalker for 862
21:46'43.402 Titan's Steady Shot hits Morogrim Tidewalker for 842
21:46'44.715 Titan's Steady Shot hits Morogrim Tidewalker for 863
21:46'46.058 Titan's Steady Shot hits Morogrim Tidewalker for 773
21:46'46.558 Titan's Auto Shot hits Morogrim Tidewalker for 787
21:46'47.666 Titan's Steady Shot crits Morogrim Tidewalker for 1814
21:46'49.022 Titan's Steady Shot hits Morogrim Tidewalker for 832
21:46'51.584 Morogrim Tidewalker's Earthquake hits Titan for 3966
21:46'53.476 Titan's Steady Shot crits Morogrim Tidewalker for 1834
21:46'54.709 Titan's Steady Shot hits Morogrim Tidewalker for 735
21:46'55.128 Titan's Auto Shot hits Morogrim Tidewalker for 800
21:46'56.213 Titan's Steady Shot crits Morogrim Tidewalker for 1966
21:46'57.712 Titan's Steady Shot crits Morogrim Tidewalker for 1808
21:46'58.772 Titan's Steady Shot crits Morogrim Tidewalker for 1744
21:47'00.059 Titan's Steady Shot hits Morogrim Tidewalker for 798
21:47'01.442 Titan's Steady Shot hits Morogrim Tidewalker for 782
21:47'01.948 Titan's Auto Shot hits Morogrim Tidewalker for 773

That is pretty much what I get. That is a horrible rotation. You are just throwing away free DPS by preventing your autoshot from firing for such a long time.

Joheltro · 01/18/08, 9:08 PM

Yeah, I noticed that as well, but still. Look at the time between the shots. There isnt much wasted dps there since the steadyshots goes without delay. But still I agree it can be even better if the macro can be ran properly. I have read somewhere that if you remove the Kill Command from it, it should behave better, but havent come around to try it in a raid environment yet. But I think when I tried it at Dr. Boom it went more correct, but then the pet was inactive at my side.

And that still out dps a auto, steady, arcane cast sequence makro... Constant dps, with no delays.

Dont know if it is posiible to manually time these shots so fast an accurate than it can be recreated without macro. The cast sequence macro will casue delays, so that no good.
Its a shame its so hard to be able to dps as hunter that human fingers and timing cant keep up. But the hardness of the class is maybee why so many of us still study and still enjoy it.

Endugu · 01/19/08, 8:10 AM

Originally Posted by Cheeky

Wow, that looks like some sort of major bug.

Any chance I could get a listing of the values in the "Focus Regeneration" section on the 'Pet Calculations' tab shows?

You should still have 24 - Base for 4, and Beastial Discipline and Go For the Throat should work out fine (Unless you have a negative crit rate, which should be impossible without hand adjusting a very big negative crit rating, but that breaks other sections of the spreadsheet too.) I think there must be something screwy there.

Also, you have both Claw and Gore selected as abilities. I don't think that's possible on a single pet. That shouldn't be causing the problem either.

Found out the problem:

If you forget to enter a shotrotation in the "quickshot" tab, then in the tab "pet calculations" F25 (=weightedshotpersecond) can become negative...

with trinkets equiped I get the following:

no quickshotrotation added: F25 = 0.69
With quickshotrotation added: F25 = 1.08

Without trinkets I get:

no quickshotrotation added: F25 = -2.50
With quickshotrotation added: F25 = 1.08

Is the quickshot tab required to have a shotrotation added?

Btw, I did remove the gore, didn't affect the calcs.

If you need more info/screenshots, I can give them

Edit: Blegh, I'm really crap with excel, sorry. The problem starts I think in B6 on the quickshotrotation tab. When no trinkets equiped and no shotrotation set, that number suddenly becomes -100. With 1 trinket equiped it becomes -50, 2 trinkets makes it 0 (all with no shotrotation set for quickshots).

Thorongil · 01/19/08, 8:23 AM

@endugu: I´m sorry, I mixed up the beastmaw-pauldrons with the beast-tamer-shoulders.

Kaber · 01/19/08, 8:30 AM

Originally Posted by Rokh

I believe what the macro is doing is taking advantage of some new Auto Shot mechanics. Basically you can start a global cooldown early by trying to cast Steady Shot within the last .5 seconds of a cast. This has a dramatic impact that the spread sheet doesn't currently take into account; it's possible to do 2 steadies every other auto shot in as little as 2 seconds without clipping that auto shot.

So basically a rotation would look like:

<-----Auto--Shot-----><-----Auto--Shot----->    <-----Auto--Shot----->
 <Steady-Shot>        <Steady-Shot><Steady-Shot><SteadyShot>
 GlobalCooldown-GlobalCooldown-GlobalCooldown-GlobalCooldown-

And so on, producing higher DPS, despite clipping every other auto shot a bit. I tried to model that so that each character would be .1 seconds, including brackets and hyphens. So you can get an idea of what it looks like. It's difficult to model and say exactly what is going on; that is for my 2.17 attack speed, and obviously it would differ with weapon speed.

Are you sure this is not just because of the way the servers now handle latency? Basically your display might show you are on GBC, but it might also be behind the server, so what you see is the GCD going off earlier when the reality might be that the server triggered the event before your display caught up. And would you not get better DPS using arcane and multi shot instead of that second steady shot? They do comparable damage on arcane and more on multi with the added benefit of not clipping auto shots.

If you are talking about the bug we had going last week where our shots were bugging out and doubling up, they hot fixed it last friday around 5am.

Cheeky · 01/19/08, 8:08 PM

Originally Posted by Endugu

Found out the problem:

If you forget to enter a shotrotation in the "quickshot" tab, then in the tab "pet calculations" F25 (=weightedshotpersecond) can become negative...

with trinkets equiped I get the following:

no quickshotrotation added: F25 = 0.69
With quickshotrotation added: F25 = 1.08

Without trinkets I get:

no quickshotrotation added: F25 = -2.50
With quickshotrotation added: F25 = 1.08

Is the quickshot tab required to have a shotrotation added?

Btw, I did remove the gore, didn't affect the calcs.

If you need more info/screenshots, I can give them

Edit: Blegh, I'm really crap with excel, sorry. The problem starts I think in B6 on the quickshotrotation tab. When no trinkets equiped and no shotrotation set, that number suddenly becomes -100. With 1 trinket equiped it becomes -50, 2 trinkets makes it 0 (all with no shotrotation set for quickshots).

Ok, I figured this out. It's because I allow you to select trinket procs in the shot rotation (for things like the [Abacus of Violent Odds]) and your trinket name, "None", matches the selection of no shots.

I'll correct this in the next release. Good find.

rhyddyn · 01/19/08, 9:50 PM

Any chance you could add the Rest of the gems to the spreadsheet or at least the Dual use ones?

Cheeky · 01/20/08, 3:00 AM

Originally Posted by rhyddyn

Any chance you could add the Rest of the gems to the spreadsheet or at least the Dual use ones?

What?

Niouk · 01/20/08, 5:46 AM

Could it be possible to add Resilience to target settings ?

Thanks for this amazing tool Cheeky

Gorgar (EU) · 01/20/08, 9:19 AM

Greetings,

I have browsed through the different posts concerning Hunter theorycrafts, looking for a way of calculating how Mp5 translates into DPS, but haven't found it. I might have missed the answer somewhere...

As I see it at the moment, using a 1:1 Steady rotation and with my own stuff:
Mana cost: 99
Average Damage: 564
Average Crit Damage: 1201
Average Crit chance: 24.50%
Average Damage including crit: (564x75.5+1201x24.5)/100=720.06
DPM: 720/99=7.27
DPS: 720/1.5=480

Since 1Mp5 means that we need 5 secs to gain 1Mana, I calculate this as DPM/5=7.27/5=1.45.
It seems logical to me, but I might be looking in the wrong direction. Does anyone come with the same result or a different one? This is calculated with Steady Shot and doesn't include Kill Command for instance, which has a slightly lower DPM for me (around 6.50).

I've gone through the spreadsheet and didn't see this value Mp5=DPS, so I thought that it might be interesting to add it there. The spreadsheet is a great tool, keep on the good work.

Thorongil · 01/20/08, 9:31 AM

You can´t translate mp5 into dps. As BM you don´t need mp5 at all if you´re properly buffed and using pots. I can´t speak for the other speccs since I haven´t used them in end-game-raiding for quite some time but I personally value mp5 quite low as hunter. Especially if you have the bosses JoWed mp5 exactly contributes zero dps.

Cheeky · 01/20/08, 1:10 PM

Originally Posted by Niouk

Could it be possible to add Resilience to target settings ?

Thanks for this amazing tool Cheeky

Yeah, my version already has this fully implemented.

I just need to get off my ass and polish the current changes up and release it.

Indora · 01/20/08, 2:54 PM

You can only translate mp5 to dps, when you would have gone oom without mp5.
What is nearly never the case, if you are BM-specced.

For MMs / SVs you have to calculate the dpm of each shot (or even rank).

Example:
With 0 mp5, you can only use Auto/Steady.
With 30 mp5, you can add Multi Shot rank 1.
With 60 mp5, you can add Arcane Shot rank 9.
With 90 mp5, you can add KC.
With 120 mp5, you can increase your Multi Shot's rank to 6.

Now you have to calculate the DpM of every spell / rank.
Let's say your Multi Shot rank 1 does 1k (average) damage with manacosts of 90.
1000 / 81 = 11.1 DpM
Your Arcane Shot may does around 800 damage and costs 230 mana:
800 / 230 = 3.5 DpM
KC does 300 damage , for 75 mana.
300 / 75 = 3 DpM
Increasing your Multi shot does 200 extra damage, for 117 additional mana.
200 / 117 = 1.7 DpM

So, the first 30 Mp5 will give you
30 * 11.1 / 5 = 67 additional DpS.
The next 30 Mp5 will give you
30 * 3.5 / 5 = 21 additional DpS.

30 * 3 / 5 = 18 DpS

30 * 1.7 / 5 = 10 DpS

As you can see, you can't determine the benefit of Mp5 easily.

Koroshiya · 01/21/08, 11:00 AM

Originally Posted by Lactose

Requesting feedback on:
1 - Does anyone mind if some level 60 gear is removed, like the [Backwood Helm]?
2 - Does anyone use the Import/Export feature? (Currently not supported for version 38 -> 39)

1 - Not at all here. I feel any gear that wouldn't be used beyond Karazhan should be removed as there aren't as many options pre-Karazhan to really need the spreadsheet. Not to mention the custom option os more then capable of handling any gear not listed.
2 - I have not used the Import/Export feature but mostly because of the read from Armory feature. However, I will probably start using it since the Armory seems to be unreliable at best.

Originally Posted by Cheeky

Yeah, my version already has this fully implemented.

I just need to get off my ass and polish the current changes up and release it.

3 - You sir are famous for the spreadsheet not for your in game skill, so release it already! (Of course the game skill reference is merely a joke as I have never actually seen Cheeky play. But just in case someone were offended over the comment I figured I would point out that it is in fact a joke. My lawyers assure me I will not be responsible for any damages it may have caused as long as I put in this long disclaimer to be read very fast and without any kind of pause.)

Cheeky · 01/21/08, 12:03 PM

Originally Posted by Koroshiya

3 - You sir are famous for the spreadsheet not for your in game skill, so release it already! (Of course the game skill reference is merely a joke as I have never actually seen Cheeky play. But just in case someone were offended over the comment I figured I would point out that it is in fact a joke. My lawyers assure me I will not be responsible for any damages it may have caused as long as I put in this long disclaimer to be read very fast and without any kind of pause.)

If I was a better Hunter I could single-handedly drag my guild through Kael'thas. I'll work on that! (I imagine watching me play is about the least exciting thing you could do with your time.)

Ok, I promise to release something this week. Resilience is done, half the old gear is removed, and I think I've fixed one or two other bugs. I need to go through this thread and my PMs to figure out what else should be in it.

MasterZeus · 01/21/08, 12:11 PM

Cheeky:

About the level 60 gear. I am sure no one will mind if almost all of it is gone, but leave Black Grasp of the Destroyer in there. I still use it for certain fights since it has such a unique and valuable proc.

Koroshiya · 01/21/08, 1:17 PM

Originally Posted by MasterZeus

Cheeky:

About the level 60 gear. I am sure no one will mind if almost all of it is gone, but leave Black Grasp of the Destroyer in there. I still use it for certain fights since it has such a unique and valuable proc.

I think that's the key. If the item has a proc and it's modeled in your spreadsheet put it in. If it's not modeled don't put it in. This will let the user know that the proc of the item is not modeled and thus you are unable to give it a true rating.

Cheeky · 01/21/08, 2:57 PM

Originally Posted by Koroshiya

I think that's the key. If the item has a proc and it's modeled in your spreadsheet put it in. If it's not modeled don't put it in. This will let the user know that the proc of the item is not modeled and thus you are unable to give it a true rating.

That sounds like a good idea. I am removing the set bonuses from D0, D1, T1, T2, T2.5, ZG, and AQ20 gear. I can't imagine any serious Hunter is still keeping those pieces for the set bonuses (or even equipping them at all.)

It cleans up the gear lists a decent amount. Especially for the melee weapons.

Opostrophe · 01/21/08, 7:19 PM

Any chance of adding the Netherstrand Longbow and Nether Spikes to the gear list? Seems like it would be useful.

I'm using custom gear for it right now, but I guess it would be nice to have the proc modelled.

• Tsook · 01/21/08, 7:31 PM

Originally Posted by Cheeky

I am removing the set bonuses from D0, D1, T1, T2, T2.5, ZG, and AQ20 gear. I can't imagine any serious Hunter is still keeping those pieces for the set bonuses (or even equipping them at all.)

Yeah.. uh.. you'd have to be crazy to have all that stuff in your bank just because the equip bonuses are unique. What kind of loser hunter would do that? >.>

Cheeky · 01/22/08, 12:06 AM