Hunter Spreadsheets -- In development - Page 78

◊ Lactose · 05/02/08, 7:12 AM

Please check the list of missing/incorrect items before posting.

Cheeky · 05/02/08, 11:25 AM

So the list of melee items is becoming unworkably large. You may have noticed that the separate main/off hand lists are sometimes out of alignment. I'm looking for suggestions on reducing the glut.

One idea I had was to collapse all the similar Arena/PvP items into generic types. I should be able to have the Armory scraping code handle them, so you just get "S2 One Hand" instead of [Merciless Gladiator's Right Ripper]. But that only addresses a small portion of the items listed. Some of you people seem to be kinda smart, so maybe you can think of better ideas.

Jaffi · 05/02/08, 11:52 AM

Hi

there is one thing I don't understand. In the shot rotations tab you can choose if you want the rotation macroed (castsequence, spam) or handweaved. Now what exactly does this "spam"? Could you put this into a macro, too, or how would it work?

SenorPez · 05/02/08, 12:11 PM

Didn't see it mentioned anywhere, so apologies if it's already been fixed. [Stalker's Chain Gauntlets] is misspelled in the spreadsheet.

Cranch · 05/02/08, 4:46 PM

Originally Posted by Zearon

yes i remember... but dun ask why he's dps is higher than mine.. i asked why he used gimpy bage x-bow instead of BBB
even with 0 latency 3/2 BBB beats bage x-bow with ANY rotation...

You may have an interesting gear set up or perhaps you are not a BM build. For my gear and a 3:2 rotation, I see the following:

latency    trollbane   bristleblitz  relentless  black bow
0.05       1770.5      1767.2        1800.6      1758.0
0.25       1713.6      1729.2        1738.8      1720.1

Perhaps he's using the gimpy badge xbow because it delivers higher dps than BBB ?

Cheeky · 05/02/08, 6:33 PM

Originally Posted by Jaffi

Hi

there is one thing I don't understand. In the shot rotations tab you can choose if you want the rotation macroed (castsequence, spam) or handweaved. Now what exactly does this "spam"? Could you put this into a macro, too, or how would it work?

There are 2 general flavors of macro - /castsequence and /cast /cast

The first one punishes you by adding latency to the start of every shot, and by waiting for a shot to complete before starting the next one.

The /cast /cast macros spam cast attempts at the server as fast as possible. With them you can recover the GCD during Auto Shot's cast time due to the nature of client/server communications. (You can do the exact same thing with hand weaving.)

I provide the option to better model latency's effect on a rotation.

Jaffi · 05/02/08, 7:26 PM

Originally Posted by Cheeky

There are 2 general flavors of macro - /castsequence and /cast /cast

The first one punishes you by adding latency to the start of every shot, and by waiting for a shot to complete before starting the next one.

The /cast /cast macros spam cast attempts at the server as fast as possible. With them you can recover the GCD during Auto Shot's cast time due to the nature of client/server communications. (You can do the exact same thing with hand weaving.)

I provide the option to better model latency's effect on a rotation.

Ok, now there is one thing i noticed while using a spamm "3:2" macro. I used it with the black bow for a long time and it worked fine, but now, with sw loots (lots of haste rating) and the new xbow you can easily get an autoshot speed of ~2 sec. So I asked myself if it wouldn't make sense to use a 1:1 castsequence makro if you fall below the 2 sec autoshot castingtime.
The spreadsheet tells me to use a 3:2 (spamm), but an 1:1 castsequence would do only about 10 dps less for me.
The 3:2 makro automatically turns into 1:1 if you have enough haste up, but there is a thin line where it seems to depend on your latency if a second steadyshot will be castet (at around 1.75 auto castspeed), that will clip your next auto shot. This is what I noticed.
That's the reason why I thought about using a 1:1 castsequence, because with my current equip exactly this happens, if Iaoth proccs. Sometimes it casts a second steady which will more or less extremely clip the next auto shot, sometimes it doesn't.

crmccar · 05/02/08, 7:56 PM

Originally Posted by Cheeky

So the list of melee items is becoming unworkably large. You may have noticed that the separate main/off hand lists are sometimes out of alignment. I'm looking for suggestions on reducing the glut.

One idea I had was to collapse all the similar Arena/PvP items into generic types. I should be able to have the Armory scraping code handle them, so you just get "S2 One Hand" instead of [Merciless Gladiator's Right Ripper]. But that only addresses a small portion of the items listed. Some of you people seem to be kinda smart, so maybe you can think of better ideas.

How about having a separate "slot" for 2-handed weapons? So you'd have "2-handed", "Main Hand", and "Off Hand". Whenever there's something in the "2-handed" slot, the other two's slots are filled like you do with meta gems. This would also make it easier to compare 2-handed weapons to dual-wielding as you wouldn't have to change your enchants and add/remove your offhand every time you want to switch.

What exactly, though, is the nature of the problem that the large number of weapons is causing?

Indora · 05/03/08, 8:20 AM

Originally Posted by Jaffi

The 3:2 makro automatically turns into 1:1 if you have enough haste up, but there is a thin line where it seems to depend on your latency if a second steadyshot will be castet (at around 1.75 auto castspeed), that will clip your next auto shot. This is what I noticed.
That's the reason why I thought about using a 1:1 castsequence, because with my current equip exactly this happens, if Iaoth proccs. Sometimes it casts a second steady which will more or less extremely clip the next auto shot, sometimes it doesn't.

As a sidenote: As long as your latency doesn't jump up and down extremely, it doesn't affect your rotation in any way.
Only weaponspeed, hasterating and "reactiontime" affect the result of your /cast /cast macro.
(average reactiontime = time to push your button twice / 2)

Koroshiya · 05/03/08, 1:35 PM

Originally Posted by Cheeky

So the list of melee items is becoming unworkably large. You may have noticed that the separate main/off hand lists are sometimes out of alignment. I'm looking for suggestions on reducing the glut.

One idea I had was to collapse all the similar Arena/PvP items into generic types. I should be able to have the Armory scraping code handle them, so you just get "S2 One Hand" instead of [Merciless Gladiator's Right Ripper]. But that only addresses a small portion of the items listed. Some of you people seem to be kinda smart, so maybe you can think of better ideas.

Hey Cheeky.. one thing I would like to see is a minimum level on the gear selection. For instance. What if on the Settings tab you enabled us to turn off certain items.

Here are a few ways to hide some of the armor/weapons.

Rarity
iLevel
Zone

That way I could say I want to only see items that are Epic and above in my lists.. or only items with an iLevel > 100 and the final one would be a little more complex... I was thinking something like...

Only include items in "these" zones.

DropDownList would include Black Temple, Hyjal, Karazhan, Zul'Aman, World Epics, etc... with the ability to select multiple zones.

Because honestly, a lot of items are off limits to people based on raid progression. Black Temple Sunwell guilds aren't doing Gruul's and Mag very often anymore.. and guilds in Kara may want to dream of Black Temple, Sunwell stuff but in reality most of the time they don't care.

Xeres · 05/05/08, 8:52 AM

first, great work cheeky.

now regarding my question/posting:

is there any spreadsheet released, where you can enter your current gear and it calculates upgrades for you, like in rawr for many classes or in the Paladin spreadsheet?

Our shotrotation makes it a bit more complex, I understand that. But e.g. if you go for an unhasted gear and choose a certain rotation and then let it crunch numbers, that would be great.

I am just asking, because I recently reactivated my Hunter and well he's running around in T5-T4 and now going BT and MH again, but now replacing them by leather or more by mail is the big question mark...

Lukian · 05/05/08, 2:21 PM

Missing Items:
[Sun-forged Cleaver]
[Shard of Contempt] (This item has been on the missing list for almost a month and there's clear proc rate data available for it now - 45sec internal cooldown, 10% chance on hit).

Typo:
[Cloak of the Coming Night] ("fo" in the spreadsheet).

Cheeky · 05/05/08, 3:52 PM

Originally Posted by Xeres

first, great work cheeky.

now regarding my question/posting:

is there any spreadsheet released, where you can enter your current gear and it calculates upgrades for you, like in rawr for many classes or in the Paladin spreadsheet?

Our shotrotation makes it a bit more complex, I understand that. But e.g. if you go for an unhasted gear and choose a certain rotation and then let it crunch numbers, that would be great.

I am just asking, because I recently reactivated my Hunter and well he's running around in T5-T4 and now going BT and MH again, but now replacing them by leather or more by mail is the big question mark...

Does the gear planning feature mentioned on the previous page meet your needs?

Originally Posted by Lukian

Missing Items:
[Sun-forged Cleaver]
[Shard of Contempt] (This item has been on the missing list for almost a month and there's clear proc rate data available for it now - 45sec internal cooldown, 10% chance on hit).

Typo:
[Cloak of the Coming Night] ("fo" in the spreadsheet).

I can't see how the [Shard of Contempt] could ever be a valuable Hunter item. If your model is correct the uptime is just 36%, for an average of ~83 RAP. That's worse than the [Hourglass of the Unraveller], [Bloodlust Brooch], [Bladefist's Breadth], etc. for DPS. Let the melee have it.

Rox · 05/05/08, 4:35 PM

First: Great spreadsheet! I realize a ton of time and effort has gone into this, and hopefully continues! Been using this for almost a month now - and have one question (I know, only one question in a month then I must be a bit slow...)

I'm no where near being epic'd out - and was using this spreadsheet to assist in my gear search, verses "The Armory". My hunter is currently sporting the "Wrathfire Hand-Cannon", and when I look at using any of the "upgrades" listed from the Armory in the spreadsheet - my "Hunter DPS" drops, instead of increasing, like I would expect.

Basically, any ranged weapon I have swapped into the spreadsheet drops my hunter's DPS. All I can see is that the weapon speed for the Wrathfire Hand-Cannon" is the fastest - at 2.0 - not sure if there is a math error some place that makes it seem like I should not try to upgrade to a different weapon.

Thanks in advance.

oreoleo · 05/05/08, 5:36 PM

Hey cheeky. I'm a Sunwell raiding hunter, and I wanted to know how much worse the nerfed Thori'dal, the Stars' Fury is.
Check it: Worldofraids forums :: Legendary Bow Changed, Daily Blue, Diablo 3
Thanks!

MikeMo · 05/05/08, 6:11 PM

He won't know anything the rest of us don't already know. The bow has not dropped yet and has only been data-mined and subject to change at any point until it finally drops.

Xeres · 05/06/08, 11:23 AM

Originally Posted by Cheeky

Does the gear planning feature mentioned on the previous page meet your needs?

Yes it does indeed. I must have missed it while check the thread. Sorry for the inconvenience.
Hope it get released public soon

If there is need, I offer myself for testing it beta.

In the Rawr! thread I've found some mentioning someone is working to implement it to Rawr!.
Are you working on the implementation or is it someone else?

Seoman · 05/06/08, 2:54 PM

*Yoda voice* "Fantastic resource, this is!"

The spreadsheet is great, as is the forum. Thank you all so much for the Wisdom (tm)!

I apologize for how basic this question is, but I've read through everything and I don't understand it. I'm sure it's me and my thick skull, and you'll sort me out in no time.

The way I understand the Per Item Budget section on the Settings and Results tab, the DPS column shows the DPS increase I can expect from adding Attribute +1 (Agility +1, AP +1, and on down the list), given my current stats (e.g. Hit capped/or not, MM Int giving +AP/or not, etc.) Right?

If that's so, can someone explain the Per Item Budget column? I see that for most of the attributes, it simply equals the DPS column, though AP is x2, and Armor Pen is x7. Does this account for the amount of +AP, say, typically found on items, as compared with. say, +Agility?

I'm not sure I understand completely.

Cheeky · 05/06/08, 5:13 PM

Originally Posted by Xeres

Yes it does indeed. I must have missed it while check the thread. Sorry for the inconvenience.
Hope it get released public soon

If there is need, I offer myself for testing it beta.

In the Rawr! thread I've found some mentioning someone is working to implement it to Rawr!.
Are you working on the implementation or is it someone else?

Not I. This is enough extra work for me to take on. I wish whomever tries to implement shot rotations and various haste procs in Rawr good luck!

New version of the SS should be soon. Gear planner is complete, item lists are updated, formatting changed a bit.
Big things left are any additional buffs (might hold off until next update) and getting the buttons to work in OO.

Originally Posted by Seoman

*Yoda voice* "Fantastic resource, this is!"

The spreadsheet is great, as is the forum. Thank you all so much for the Wisdom (tm)!

I apologize for how basic this question is, but I've read through everything and I don't understand it. I'm sure it's me and my thick skull, and you'll sort me out in no time.

The way I understand the Per Item Budget section on the Settings and Results tab, the DPS column shows the DPS increase I can expect from adding Attribute +1 (Agility +1, AP +1, and on down the list), given my current stats (e.g. Hit capped/or not, MM Int giving +AP/or not, etc.) Right?

If that's so, can someone explain the Per Item Budget column? I see that for most of the attributes, it simply equals the DPS column, though AP is x2, and Armor Pen is x7. Does this account for the amount of +AP, say, typically found on items, as compared with. say, +Agility?

I'm not sure I understand completely.

That's it exactly. Although my estimate of 7 ArmPen per 1 item budget may be incorrect. Early levels of it seemed to come in increments of 7. If they ever offer it on a gem we'll know better.

• Tsook · 05/06/08, 9:25 PM

Cat's Swiftness (displayed on Armory as "Minor Speed and +6 Agility") gives an error during armory load, needs to be added to the lookup table I suppose.

Cheeky, I wanted to let you know I went over the math you posted for modeling the different PPM from special and auto shots a couple weeks ago and it seemed flawless to me. I especially worked on your intuitive "combined like resisters in parallel" calculation for the joint probability and I feel that's the right thing to do, although it's been a long time since I had any formal math/statistics classes. Certainly it behaves correctly at the extremes and every value I sampled at looked right.

I'm excited to see this PPM change implemented, as it should drop the usefulness of DST slightly -- and at this point I'm really chafing under its yoke. Are you planning to adjust for all the ppm stuff? Don Santos, Poison Vial, Shattered Sun, etc?

Cheeky · 05/07/08, 1:02 AM

Originally Posted by Tsook

Cat's Swiftness (displayed on Armory as "Minor Speed and +6 Agility") gives an error during armory load, needs to be added to the lookup table I suppose.

Cheeky, I wanted to let you know I went over the math you posted for modeling the different PPM from special and auto shots a couple weeks ago and it seemed flawless to me. I especially worked on your intuitive "combined like resisters in parallel" calculation for the joint probability and I feel that's the right thing to do, although it's been a long time since I had any formal math/statistics classes. Certainly it behaves correctly at the extremes and every value I sampled at looked right.

I'm excited to see this PPM change implemented, as it should drop the usefulness of DST slightly -- and at this point I'm really chafing under its yoke. Are you planning to adjust for all the ppm stuff? Don Santos, Poison Vial, Shattered Sun, etc?

Thanks, I appreciate a second set of eyes looking it over.

So far I've switched the following to PPM calculations:
[Dragonspine Trophy] - 1 PPM, 10 second duration, 20 second cool down
[Madness of the Betrayer] - 1 PPM, 10 second duration, no cool down

Should be transitioned over, just need nailed down stats:
[Don Santos' Famous Hunting Rifle] ? PPM, 10 second duration, no cool down
[Romulo's Poison Vial] 1? PPM, no cooldown, crit based on Int, 17% full resist, 5.14% partial resist

Still modeled at % chance on hit (non-PPM based) - some of these should probably be PPM if we can get rates and cooldowns:
[Mark of Conquest] - 13% chance on hit, 17 second cool down
[Hourglass of the Unraveller] - 10% chance on hit, 10 second duration, 45 second internal cool down
[Tsunami Talisman] - 10% chance on hit, 10 second duration, 45 second internal cool down
[Band of the Eternal Champion] - 10% chance on hit, 10 second duration, 45 second internal cool down
[Shattered Sun Pendant of Might] - 10% chance on hit, 10 second duration, 45 second internal cool down, need more information on crit/resist rates of Scryer proc

turbo_012 · 05/07/08, 8:16 AM

First off. With the gem vendor almost out, I had to figure out which gems are the best with my current gear. After much testing with the spreadsheet. This is what I came up with.

1 Meta: relentless earthen diamond
2 yellows: wicked pyrestone
2 blues: infused shadowsong amethyst
the rest reds: bright crimson spinel

Not after finishing this compilation I head over to the thread "best possible dps using cheeky's spreadshee". According to that gear setup they have different gem priority's. How is it some gear setups have agility outperforming then attack power, while other gear setup favors attack power over agility. Is it the pet? Is there a cut line for attack power? Is there a cut line for crit %?