Hunter Spreadsheets -- In development - Page 84

Miya Mirage · 05/21/08, 9:41 PM

I have entered 142 hit rating in the hand adjust line.

Comparing [Madness of the Betrayer] on the Gear Planner Tab with setting as 0 hit and as current hit (which would be cap) it reports the same dps value for both settings. I think the hit is not factored in correctly for this item. I tried to see if it is for trinkets in general, but the only other trinket that i could remember having hit was the Poison Vial, and it doesn't get listed even with karazhan only items.

What I also did was removing the added hit rating and the value did not change either with either setting for hit evaluation.

Edit: using v49 of course

peteriong · 05/22/08, 1:34 AM

Thank you for the work of another update of the spreadsheet.

I found something strange with the latency issue with the "Drapongspine Trophy" Page. I was testing a setup with the badge crossbow with no haste rating gear. I inputed 0.2 seconds in the latency cell and used 1:1 (Steady) Rotation in the "Shot Rotation", "Quick Shots" and "Dragonspine Trophy" pages.

When the "Macro?" cell is set to "Castsequence" in the "Shot Rotation" page, all four shot rotations in the above three pages will be getting 0.2 seconds gap between the Autos and Steadies due to the mechanism of Castsequence. I think that this is working as intended.

But when the "Macro?" cell is set to "Hand-Weaved" or "Spam", the 0.2 second gaps between the Autos and Steadies disppear from the "Shot Rotation" and "Quick Shots" page. But the 0.2 second gaps still exist on the "Draponspine Trophy" page. Is this working as intended that the shot rotation under dragonspine trophy effect is not consistent with the other two under "Hand-Weaved" and "Spam"?

The cells of O column in "Shot Rotation" page and the cells of J column in "Quick Shots" page are using the variable "CastLag" in their formulas. But the cells of K and R column in "Dragonspine Trophy" page are using the variable "Lag" in their formulas. Is this the reason of the inconsistent between those pages?

PreTXT · 05/22/08, 4:41 AM

Originally Posted by Xenoborg

Trying his gear in Cheeky's show only a 4 dps gain from 0/28/33 over 7/20/34, but you also loose thrill of the hunt.

After talking with our survival hunter he explains that because of all the haste effect he is almost always doing 3:2 and not 2:1. Additionally he says it is more dps to only use steady, and arcane and multi only in special cases. The difference is even greater when you stop using multi and arcane.

edit: rearranged for flow

OK, I mentioned earlier that I was testing using 4T6 ... I guess it would be better to list all the items used in the test and posts the number as well:

Shivering Felspine,
Gronnstalker's Helmet, Delicate Crimson Spinel
Shattered Sun Pendant of Might
Gronnstalker's Spaulders, Delicate Crimson Spinel, Shifting Shadowsong Amethyst
Cloak of Fiends
Gronnstalker's Chestguard, Delicate Crimson Spinel, 2x Glinting Pyrestone
Gronnstalker's Gloves, Delicate Crimson Spinel
Don Alejandro's Money Belt,Delicate Crimson Spinel x 2
Void Reaver Greaves, Delicate Crimson Spinel, 2x Jagged Seaspray Emerald
Edgewalker's Longboots, Delicate Crimson Spinel, Glinting Pyrestone
Angelista's Revenge
Ring of Lethality
Bristleblitz Striker
Berserker's Call
Hourglass of the Unraveller

Full buffs used (LoTP, GoA, Elixir of Major Agi, BoK, BoM,GotW, Scroll of Agi, Spicy Hot Talbuk used as food).
Also, i adjusted the haste with +80 on the gear tab in order to reflect constant use of Drums of Battle
Now, moving on to talents builds and results:

1. 0/28/33

1:1.5 Shot Rotation (with multi & arcane): 1997.60 DPS
3:2 Shot Rotation: 1897.19 DPS

2. 7/20/34

1:1.5 Shot Rotation (with multi & arcane): 1955 DPS
3:2 Shot Rotation: 1906 DPS

So, from these results, I should take the 0/28/33 spec, since it gives me the best DPS, which certainly contradicts all the "live" reports. Moreover, in both cases, the 1:1.5 shot rotation gives better results than 3:2.
Please note that I am fully aware that the gear showed up above is not the best in its slot or even the gems combination can be adjusted for better results. I'm just trying to replicate the case of 4T6, 80 passive haste + drums + 3:2 shot rotation.

Is there any explanation for this difference?

thanks

Shandara · 05/22/08, 6:27 AM

With the newest version (great work btw), my Excel 2003 hangs for a long time when I use the 'CalcAttrributes' or 'Save Profile' features. CPU usage goes to 100% (luckily I have 2 so I can keep working). Obviously, the sheet is going into a loop somewhere, although I'm not sure why (since noone else has reported it yet).

EDIT: It did finish after about 5 minutes of heavy churning, so it's just very very slow on my computer I guess (I have dual Athlon MP 2800+ system).

Suicidal Insanity · 05/22/08, 7:31 AM

It looped for me and kept increasing the haste value by 1, when I told it to recalculate.

Slaughtt · 05/22/08, 9:18 AM

Keep in mind the last two pieces of "hunter loot" have been added to KJ's loot table via MMO Champion likewise with the current Thori'dal.

Helm: http://static.mmo-champion.com/mmoc/...fofalleria.jpg

Gloves: http://static.mmo-champion.com/mmoc/...rgauntlets.jpg

Bow: http://static.mmo-champion.com/mmoc/...ridalfinal.jpg

Perhaps added in the near future to the lovely spreadsheet

Though it seems too easy to get hit capped and still maintain over 135 haste with the current gear available :\ (No drums of course)

Edit: Probably already known and a work in progress, but just a heads up for people who aren't keeping up to date.

Edit2: By 2 pieces I meant wearable gear that you can add and mix around so you don't break 4 piece. Gogo Daggers/Sword/Bow/Cloak

Xeres · 05/22/08, 10:14 AM

I've got a question regarding Rapid Fire.

Is there any way to add a "Start Shot" in the rotations, where I can fire off all my CD's, especially Rapid Fire? To shift all shots by one step for every trinket or ability is somehow annoying or do I miss something?

Obellix · 05/22/08, 1:54 PM

I don't see it on the bug/missing items post, but [Ring of the Recalcitrant] seems to be missing on the gear tab.

Sapa · 05/23/08, 4:27 AM

Latest version, Excel. (had no problems till now, same PC, older spreadsheets seem to work ok)

* Attribute Recalc loops sometimes (haste+1)
* lag is not calculated in rotation (can see 0.05 increases now and then, 0.2 lag set)
* "hidden" haste is present (~144% - calc tab). With 0 haste on gear and SV talents I was at 200% haste (calculations tab) making auto shot speed 1.5 (down from 3.00)
* Check 3:2 rotation, seems to produce low results (might be because of haste thingie)
* Gear Comparison ignores Armor Penetration?

Bikiniwax · 05/23/08, 10:26 AM

Originally Posted by Sapa

Latest version, Excel. (had no problems till now, same PC, older spreadsheets seem to work ok)

* Attribute Recalc loops sometimes (haste+1)
* lag is not calculated in rotation (can see 0.05 increases now and then, 0.2 lag set)
* "hidden" haste is present (~144% - calc tab). With 0 haste on gear and SV talents I was at 200% haste (calculations tab) making auto shot speed 1.5 (down from 3.00)
* Check 3:2 rotation, seems to produce low results (might be because of haste thingie)
* Gear Comparison ignores Armor Penetration?

There is definitely an issue with haste. No way the DST can drop out of the top 10 trinkets.

lugash · 05/23/08, 10:34 AM

Deleted...I must've had something set wrong, works now...

turbo_012 · 05/23/08, 10:58 AM

Originally Posted by abron

They do infact stack. Confirmed. Thats why no tank in this game should complain about how much a raid costs becauso ONE scroll of strength V is at about 7g, agility is not cheaper either on my server. (*lol)

As I said, since they stack and all, why not add scroll of agility to the buffs for pets.

Eliirion · 05/23/08, 4:52 PM

Originally Posted by Slaughtt

Keep in mind the last two pieces of "hunter loot" have been added to KJ's loot table via MMO Champion likewise with the current Thori'dal.

TWO?
KJ is hunter paradise. Bow, Helm, Gloves, Cloak, Dagger and Sword!

alienangel · 05/23/08, 5:07 PM

Originally Posted by Eliirion

TWO?
KJ is hunter paradise. Bow, Helm, Gloves, Cloak, Dagger and Sword!

Fist before dagger/sword!

Cheeky · 05/23/08, 5:34 PM

Ok, lots of replies.

Originally Posted by Whitefyst

Great work on the gear planning tab. I know it was a lot of work and that it is still in development.

I would like to add a nice to have request to the gear planner if you ever have the time and inclincation. I understand if you do not though.

At least for many survival hunters, personal DPS gain from an item is not the only discriminating factor. The other main factor is how the item affects our DPS contribution to the rest of the raid via changes to our average EW AP. It would be ideal if next to the DPS listing if there was also an EW DPS listing. It would take the average EW AP contribution from the item (change in average EW AP between equipping the item and having nothing equipped in that slot) and multiplied by the AP to DPS conversion and the number of other physical DPS in the raid (both of the latter items would be inputs on the Settings and Results tab). Of course, this extra reporting column would disappear or be blank for hunters without any ranks in EW.

Then additional nice features would be to be able to sort the gear not only personal DPS (the current option) but also on EW DPS (for those who desire to maximize that) and total raid DPS (the sum of the previous 2) for those, like myself, who try to maximize that.

This would allow survival hunters to be able to better make use of the hard work you put into the gear planning tab. Currently, items listed high on the gear planning tab, while better options for BM or MM hunters, may not be the best option for me since they have no or little agility possibly resulting in a loss of total raid DPS by equipping the item.

Another question on the gear planning tab. Are the comparisons done with populating the sockets with the default gem for that socket color listed on Settings and Results tab? It would make sense if that was the case since how would you know that we would prefer to socket it differently. If that's the case and we are usually someone who prefers all agility gems over others, I guess that we could make those our defaults for all 3 colors. However, this brings up the question of how the gear planning feature accounts for meta gems and making sure that meta gem requirements are met.

Could you please provide some insight into that and any other assumptions that go into the gear planning results so that we can better understand the results that we are seeing.

Thanks for your hard work.

I'll look into the effort for EW estimates. I use the default colors, and if all colors match for that item you get the socket bonus calculated in too. I make no checks on the Meta gem. It assumes it works.

Originally Posted by Miya Mirage

I have entered 142 hit rating in the hand adjust line.

Comparing [Madness of the Betrayer] on the Gear Planner Tab with setting as 0 hit and as current hit (which would be cap) it reports the same dps value for both settings. I think the hit is not factored in correctly for this item. I tried to see if it is for trinkets in general, but the only other trinket that i could remember having hit was the Poison Vial, and it doesn't get listed even with karazhan only items.

What I also did was removing the added hit rating and the value did not change either with either setting for hit evaluation.

Edit: using v49 of course

I'll look into that, might be a bug. [Tsunami Talisman] has hit too.

Originally Posted by peteriong

Thank you for the work of another update of the spreadsheet.

I found something strange with the latency issue with the "Drapongspine Trophy" Page. I was testing a setup with the badge crossbow with no haste rating gear. I inputed 0.2 seconds in the latency cell and used 1:1 (Steady) Rotation in the "Shot Rotation", "Quick Shots" and "Dragonspine Trophy" pages.

When the "Macro?" cell is set to "Castsequence" in the "Shot Rotation" page, all four shot rotations in the above three pages will be getting 0.2 seconds gap between the Autos and Steadies due to the mechanism of Castsequence. I think that this is working as intended.

But when the "Macro?" cell is set to "Hand-Weaved" or "Spam", the 0.2 second gaps between the Autos and Steadies disppear from the "Shot Rotation" and "Quick Shots" page. But the 0.2 second gaps still exist on the "Draponspine Trophy" page. Is this working as intended that the shot rotation under dragonspine trophy effect is not consistent with the other two under "Hand-Weaved" and "Spam"?

The cells of O column in "Shot Rotation" page and the cells of J column in "Quick Shots" page are using the variable "CastLag" in their formulas. But the cells of K and R column in "Dragonspine Trophy" page are using the variable "Lag" in their formulas. Is this the reason of the inconsistent between those pages?

I need to port the latency changes over to the DST rotations. Totally forgot about that. Thanks.

Originally Posted by Shandara

With the newest version (great work btw), my Excel 2003 hangs for a long time when I use the 'CalcAttrributes' or 'Save Profile' features. CPU usage goes to 100% (luckily I have 2 so I can keep working). Obviously, the sheet is going into a loop somewhere, although I'm not sure why (since noone else has reported it yet).

EDIT: It did finish after about 5 minutes of heavy churning, so it's just very very slow on my computer I guess (I have dual Athlon MP 2800+ system).

CalcAttributes is now very computationally intensive, since I need to establish a haste->DPS mapping (it is non-linear) to be accurate on estimations for the Gear Planner. It doesn't do the haste table for normal item updates, just on the button. I really have no clue why Save Profile got slow, I hadn't changed it at all, and stepping through it manually didn't show anything out of the ordinary. It annoys the fuck out of me too.

Originally Posted by Suicidal Insanity

It looped for me and kept increasing the haste value by 1, when I told it to recalculate.

Part of intent.

Originally Posted by Obellix

I don't see it on the bug/missing items post, but [Ring of the Recalcitrant] seems to be missing on the gear tab.

I'll check that.

Originally Posted by Sapa

Latest version, Excel. (had no problems till now, same PC, older spreadsheets seem to work ok)

* Attribute Recalc loops sometimes (haste+1)
* lag is not calculated in rotation (can see 0.05 increases now and then, 0.2 lag set)
* "hidden" haste is present (~144% - calc tab). With 0 haste on gear and SV talents I was at 200% haste (calculations tab) making auto shot speed 1.5 (down from 3.00)
* Check 3:2 rotation, seems to produce low results (might be because of haste thingie)
* Gear Comparison ignores Armor Penetration?

I do not ignore Armor Penetration. I'll look into your haste findings for any bugs. The Recalc behavior is intended, see above. Please provide more information on where you think lag is a problem.

Originally Posted by Bikiniwax

There is definitely an issue with haste. No way the DST can drop out of the top 10 trinkets.

I'm not counting the 40 AP in the Gear Planner. That pushes it back to top-5 for most Hunters.

Originally Posted by turbo_012

As I said, since they stack and all, why not add scroll of agility to the buffs for pets.

Adding a buff is a pain in the ass, since that's part of data saved out on Export. I'm waiting to redo the buffs entirely to add a bunch of things.

Whitefyst · 05/23/08, 6:02 PM

Originally Posted by Cheeky

I use the default colors, and if all colors match for that item you get the socket bonus calculated in too. I make no checks on the Meta gem. It assumes it works.

I figured that was the case, and this is good information to know.

So if the item being replaced in the Gear Planner analysis has sockets that are currently used to meet the meta gem requirements and the item replacing it does not meet those requirements (either it does not have enough sockets to count towards the requirements or the default gem placement into those sockets do not meet the meta requirements), then the meta gem bonus is not factored into the comparison analysis? Or do you always use the meta gem regardless in the analysis? Just asking for a clarification to make sure I understand.

Hellraza · 05/24/08, 8:17 AM

I have a question about Madness. In the spreadsheet its listed with 1 PPM and about 35% uptime.

Now, I have the trinket for almost 2 weeks now and I can tell you, its far far better than the spreadsheet says it is. First, there is no internal cooldown - I have seen 3 procs in a row, total uptime of 30 secs straight. It happens to proc even before the previous buff has expired. I can provide some WWS logs from our last few raids - I started making those regularly like a week ago if you want to check it for yourself.

So...have I missed something or are you still assuming an internal cooldown while modeling the trinket?

Indora · 05/24/08, 11:05 AM

Currently, a BM using a 3:2 rotation will see only a low benefit of haste. (In my example, 1 haste ~ 0.5 dps).

I understand haste in combination with a 3:2 rotation this way:
Additional haste decreses the chance, that the rotation drops to a 2:1 rotation.

IE, with 0 haste you have to click 50 ms after the gcd ends, to give your auto shot enough time to be cast.
You click ten times per second, thus your SpamSpeed ist 100ms.
In this case, the uptime of your 3:2 rotation is 50%, because there is a chance of 50%, that you'll click 50ms or more after the GCD ends.

Now, with +1% haste, your auto shot shoots faster and thus only 45 ms after the gcd ends are needed for your auto shot to be cast first. Your uptime will then be 55%.

$Uptime=\frac{1-min. SpamSpeed}{SpamSpeed}$

where

min. SpamSpeed = Time needed, so that the auto shot comes first (In the cases above 50/45ms)
SpamSpeed = 1 / Clicks per Second (100ms)

The dps difference beetwen a 3:2 and a 2:1 rotation is very high, but you need only 85 haste (assuming a 2.8 weapon) to get a relyable 3:2 rotation instead of a 2:1.
I'm quite sure that haste is the best stat (maybe even better than hit) for hunters with a 3:2 rotation (As long as they don't reach the hastecap). Many hunters will believe your Spreadsheet without thinking about this complex problem. So I would suggest to add a little comment about haste in combination with a 3:2 rotation.
I'm currently working on a way to calcuate the real worth of haste, I'll post it here when it's ready.

A little example for now:
Dps with 3:2 rotation: 2117
Dps with 2:1 rotation: 2027
(both calculated by the spreadsheet for my equip [2 pieces of t6])

Needed haste to go from a 2:1 rotation to a 3:2 with a 2.8 weapon: 85
(calculated by the program I posted a few pages back)

Dps per Haste:
(2117-2027) / 85 = 1,06
(This is even better than my dps gain out of Hit: 0.97)

edit:
Calculations!E27 only sum up Gear & Aspect of the Viper, not Buffs.

Nosrab · 05/24/08, 12:22 PM

Only just grabbed this the other night. I was able to upload all my items from the armory, with the exception of my Quickening Blade of the Prince (MgT swords)
Just thought I'd post it through

Huntaria · 05/24/08, 3:55 PM

Does anyone have a relatively fresh version of this spreadsheet that is fully compatible with Excel 97, I am currently having excel errors with almost everything on the spreadsheet working other than the talents sheet.

Cheeky · 05/24/08, 11:12 PM

Originally Posted by Whitefyst

I figured that was the case, and this is good information to know.

So if the item being replaced in the Gear Planner analysis has sockets that are currently used to meet the meta gem requirements and the item replacing it does not meet those requirements (either it does not have enough sockets to count towards the requirements or the default gem placement into those sockets do not meet the meta requirements), then the meta gem bonus is not factored into the comparison analysis? Or do you always use the meta gem regardless in the analysis? Just asking for a clarification to make sure I understand.

I always assume your Meta works. The logic to determine it is too big a pain in the ass to implement.

Originally Posted by Hellraza

I have a question about Madness. In the spreadsheet its listed with 1 PPM and about 35% uptime.

Now, I have the trinket for almost 2 weeks now and I can tell you, its far far better than the spreadsheet says it is. First, there is no internal cooldown - I have seen 3 procs in a row, total uptime of 30 secs straight. It happens to proc even before the previous buff has expired. I can provide some WWS logs from our last few raids - I started making those regularly like a week ago if you want to check it for yourself.

So...have I missed something or are you still assuming an internal cooldown while modeling the trinket?

There is no internal cooldown in the model. Your anecdota