Cheeky

You can verify the gear stats on any of the updated websites (Thottbot Test, WoWHead, etc.) if you think they are wrong. Since the spreadsheet is designed to the 2.1 mechanics in sustained fights I count Hunter's Mark as a full +440 RAP (I'm assuming a raid can keep it refreshed.)

Without knowing your exact gear and what buffs you added I have no idea what your stats should be, but if you are in top-of-the-line stuff and have every buff imaginable I'd say it's entirely possible to reach those numbers.

Cheeky of Havoc

 

beathoven

I've talked and seen with a hunter from Forte (Kazzak/EU) on the PTR yesterday, and with the fully AGI gem'ed test gear and a Survival spec he had around 2200 RAP and 36% crit self buffed. He didn't have any enchants on the gear (except the stuff you can get from CE and Aldor), so he was missing a bit of RAP and crit here and there.

So yes, with proper Kara/SSC/TK fully gemed and enchated gear, fully raid buffed and potted a Survival hunter can pretty surely hit 2600 RAP with 44% crit i think.

He pushed around 1150 DPS on Dr Boom btw (including Multi-Shots, so a bit lower on single targets), which is pretty impressive imo.

Read ya, Phil

 

Equalizer

My Armory is linked to my profile. And no SSC/TK gear.

The main changes to my armory were Agi gems/Enchants and a cloak and ring change (Ravenclaw Band and Blood Knight War Cloak).

So in the "Ranged Attack Power" box that includes Hunter's Mark? Because I only see that listed under "RAP Fighting Mob".

Just seems really high.

The buffs I used were max rank Gift, Major Agility Elixir, Warp Burger, TSA, Imp LOTP, Kings, max rank un-talented Grace of Air and max rank un-Talented Might.

 

Cheeky

If you can find a flaw in the buffs, gear, or calculations I'd love to hear it. Otherwise, that's the numbers you'll see in game, based on the circumstances you provide the spreadsheet.

Cheeky of Havoc

 

AndrewCarr

It honestly doesn't seem that unrealistic. I'm hitting 2600-2700 rap as marks(raid buffed with major agi, no flask, no totems, hunter's mark ap not included), and my gear's pretty average. If I were to get t5/rogue leather, get the % rap talents from survival, etc., I can see it being only slightly behind Marks in terms of rap. After all, consider that you lose master marksman and careful aim, but still have TSA, a few additional buffs, +440 rap from mark, and % ap from SI).

 

Equalizer

I guess I wasn't asking whether there were flaws. I was more asking whether I was reading it wrong.

But I guess 2600 ap isn't out of the realm of possibility.

Almost seems worth it...when Expose, and Mark are factored I end up at 3200+ ap. And sit comfy at 45ish% crit.

Very tempting.

 

Xeno

Cheeky, great work with your spreadsheet. I've learned a lot. Few things I'd like to put out there:

• As of version 15 the avoidance option is still protected.
• Untalented focus regens 24 per tick not 25.
• Your hunter ap to lightning breath dmg ratio is high, it's closer to 0.60% and at my testings statistical max it's 0.85%, as of May 16th anyways.
• Your Don Santos' proc chance seems high to me, my very limited testing suggests with a 2.7 speed weapon, 15% quiver, 5/5 imp aspect of the hawk, the uptime is closer to 25%.
• Mark of Conquest I'm nearly certain has a hidden cooldown.

 

helias126

Keep up the excellent work
Would love to see how Hourglass , Abacus and Bloodlust brooch compare to eachother cause i am not sure which one to use.
Any chance you could do that in future versions please?

 

Cheeky

• I just tested on version 16, and it seems to allow you to select it. I still don't model anything for it, and I have no idea what the training point costs are, so selecting it really has no effect.
• Fixed in version 16 (which is available).
• I'm still waiting to get some better figures on this. I need to see a lot of LB data so we can draw some conclusions. I'd like to figure out damage scaling, miss%, resist%, crit%, etc.
• Again, this is the result of not enough data. If someone can provide the %chance for it to proc (or PPM if it works that way) I can model it better. I don't have the weapon, so I can't test myself. A couple thousand shots at Dr. Boom with something to track how often it procs (both with and without quiver/SS) should do the trick. Also, can it proc off specials?
• I think it does too, but I need to do more testing to figure out what it is. Should be fairly straightforward, I'll see if I can test it this weekend.

Bloodlust Brooch is fully modeled. Just select it's ability in your shot rotation and see how it changes your DPS for the next 20 seconds. Abacus's on-use ability should also be modeled corrcetly the random chance requires the same type of information I need for Don Santos (I don't have an Abacus either, because Pathaleon hates me). For the Hourglass I need to figure out what the exact cooldown is and %chance to proc on crit. I should be able to model it as an average +AP with that data.

Cheeky of Havoc

 

Bikiniwax

Has anyone determined the proc rate for Romulo's Poison Vial for 2.1. The +35 To Hit is very nice but wondering if it would replace my Hourglass or Mark of Conquest (don't have brooch yet).

EDIT: I think i found it at 6.28%. No sure where this puts it as far as as DPS compared to other trinkets yet.

 

Sapa

Cheeky,

I downloaded your spreadsheet, great work, but i have some comments and questions.

It seems I'm missing Imp.HM in pet data.
Thing is I'm BM but leeching HM from MM hunter.


Maybe you could make extra tab: Target
* level - already done
* mob/boss - already done
* armor - already done
* debuffs (Imp.HM, CoS(arcane), Arms warrior 4% debuff, gift of arthas , Hemo,...) - the hard work... but would imho be interesting insight on hunter synergy. I'm specially interested in question, what if target has dazed effect all the time (blade twisting, shield bash, concossive barrage...).

Tab: Equip compare
I know i can always change things in gear tab and compare. But socketing 3slot items 10x in row can be fun

Something like:
Item1 vs Item2
*agi
*ap
*hit
*crit

[top] Erap or dps, or change VS current gear.

I don't remember or i didn't saw. Agi

Crit = AP conversions with final gear/talents/rotation.
(something i find extremely useful in Lactoses sheet, that provides Item1 vs Item2 with next to 0 tinkering)

How do you model TBW in? I always fire TBW up with Rapid Fire / Trinkets(abacus/kiss) / Troll Zerking or Bloodlust. It results in more shots fired with +10% damage modifier, and also that means pet usually has far better focus regain at that time (doing more specials at 50% boost, in case of BL with greater speed also). I'm no math expert but seems logical to me that damage should be better this way instead of giving haste and tbw some static average % increase.

http://sigs.guildlaunch.net/sig.php/511456SFyyX.png

 

Cheeky

I model it based on a 1.3 PPM rate, and that it applies to all shots. I have a special section for it in the Calculations tab with all the math. I then add the DPS from it into the Hunter DPS totals. I do assume a 5% crit rate. If it turns out to be based on spell crit for the Hunter I can modify that in the future.

A bunch of work on this trinket was done in the spreadsheet thread on www.TKASomething.com's forums if you want to see the combat logs and derivitive analysis.

Cheeky of Havoc

 

Cheeky

I'll look into adding Improved Hunter's Mark to the pet buff listing. That shouldn't be too hard to do. I'm not sure when I'll get around to researching all the other debuffs you list and figuring out exactly how to incorporate them. But they are good ideas for future development.

I have thought about modeling Concussive Barrage to see how often a target will be dazed by a Hunter and it's effect on his Steady Shot DPS in a long fight. But I don't know any Hunter who actually put any talent points into it. If I do a target debuff table I'll make sure to incorporate daze into it.

Doing an equip compare is problematic in a presentation sense. I'll think about how I can do that in a way that makes for simple comparisons. I probably will not have the items full effects modeled into a complete DPS total. For anything with a speed differential (haste, weapon speed, etc.) it requires rebuilding a shot rotation. But just doing normal calculations requires me to double the effort made to compute DPS. While doing that isn't prohibitive, keeping both sets of equations up to date is more maintanence than I'm willing to undertake. Others have pointed out that making copies of the spreadsheet is the best way to do full equipment set compares.

The same comment reagrding multipe equation sets applies to adding in Lactose's X AP = Y crit = Z Agi matrix. It's easy enough to hand code in 1 extra stat in the blue row on the Gear page and see what the benefit is.

Cheeky of Havoc

 

• Glaurong

From testing with both scorpids and wind serpents 12.5% of your RAP still goes to your pet as spell power. The simply adjusted the spell damage coefficient on LB to 0.1.

Before any damage modifiers your pet will get 1.25% of your AP added to the base damage of LB.

Log Parser for BM Hunters (Right click, save as) - Updated 10/11/2007

 

Xeno

I thought I'd put up some data for criticism: http://www.badongo.com/file/3083294 I'll be the first one to say, thats not 100% accurate, but it's something.
LB dmg per hunter ap without modifiers 0.0060844
average pet spell dmg per hunter ap 0.128095556
spell dmg coefficient on LB without modifiers 0.047498918

 

Zuktar

About Dos Santos:

* It does proc of specials
* With Iaoth/15% quiver and firing only autoshots at Dr. Boom i got this result: with ProcWatch

Hits: 748
Procs: 52
Time: 22:42
Hits/Proc: 14.3
Procs/Min: 2.2

I hope this helps, and I dont mind doing some other tests if you want more data.

Zuk.

 

◊ Lactose

Does it have a hidden cooldown? In other words, what was the minimum time you experienced between 2 procs?

Look, Lactose, we'd rather you didn't eradicate the whole human race.
- Sam & Max

 

Zuktar

I noticed it can refresh its own proc, hence I suspect no hidden cooldown.

 

◊ Lactose

Is ProcWatch able to count a refresh as a new proc? If not, the actual procrate is higher than listed.

Another thing to test would be if it's a PPM system or not.

Look, Lactose, we'd rather you didn't eradicate the whole human race.
- Sam & Max

 

The Iron Colonel

It's easy to do this; simply autoshot on Dr Boom for some large number of shots (5-10 minutes) with a quiver equipped, then count the number of procs by parsing the combat log. Do the same WITHOUT a quiver (ergo with a different attack speed). Divide the number of procs for each data set by the total time of each data set; they should be roughly equal. Make sure you don't have AotH/iAotH up.

Edit: You can easily verify overlapping procs with this same method, just look for a proc that occurs less than the duration of the buff from the previous proc. A very easy method to verify this.

 

◊ Lactose

I was thinking about something else... PPM:
Let's say you have a 1 PPM weapon, with a 1.0 speed (no hastes). On average, you'll see 1 proc per minute (PPM). Hastes and special attack affect how many procs you actually get. PPM is converted into a chance of proc per attack (PPA). The PPA of said example weapon would be 1/60 --> ~1.67% chance of proc per attack.

With hastes and special attacks, this value stays the same, but amount of attacks increase, resulting in more procs within a set amount of time.

Saying a weapon like this is PPM based or not is actually just silly of me, since they convert to each other (and is based on original weapon speed). For enchants, which can be used on weapons with varying speeds, this is something to consider.

Yes, if the combat log prints on refreshing procs, which is what I'm uncertain of. A combat log check if it does not print on refreshing is to check whether or not you have a GAIN and FADE message with a bigger gap than the actual duration.

If it does refresh, and does not print, a large enough sample would be enough to reverse engineer the PPM rate (although probably not 100% accurately).

Look, Lactose, we'd rather you didn't eradicate the whole human race.
- Sam & Max

 

Zuktar

When testing the proc there is a problem. So far I used Procwatch and Procmeter, but both fail to adress selfrefresh as a new proc. I checked the combatlog, and the refresh does not get listed as a new proc in there as well.

A refresh would also make the uptime of the proc more unreliable to predict I think, since it clears the 10 seconds from the proc before. One proc, and at 8 seconds before end another proc means two procs, but only 12 seconds with the buff up, and not 20.

I think the only reliable way is to sit back and count the procs myself, for lets say 10 minutes. And then I can see how many shots I fired, and how many procs I had. I hope someone has a better idea

 

◊ Lactose

Save combat log, check for GAIN messages.
If the FADE message is more than 10 seconds after a GAIN message, you've had 2 (or more) procs.
Count :P

Look, Lactose, we'd rather you didn't eradicate the whole human race.
- Sam & Max