All well and good for theorycraft but I'd venture that 99% of the time if you tried to drop into new rotations when quick shots came up, being in a variable place in another rotation, you will lose DPS overall.

Also people keep mentioning that you can be firing so fast that you have to stop steady, why? Suggesting you stop steady unless you are firing an auto shot every ~0.75 seconds is a drop in DPS.

If you find yourself in an extreme haste situation (firing shots faster than the global cool), most of the time it is best to drop into spamming your steady/auto macro with a reset of 2 and stopping to toss a special when you can/if you want to. You won't get a shot off in between every auto and you will delay some autos but your overall damage is much, much higher.

The latest version of Cheeky's spreadsheet attempts to model the new 2.10 Kill Command. Since Kill Command is fueled by crits, crit rating (and the crit part of agility) become massively more valuable in 2.10 if you plan on spamming Kill Command everytime it's up. Lactose's spreadsheet still uses current game mechanics, so it doesn't value crit nearly as much.

That's most likely where the majority of the difference is coming from.

For my gear and build pre-2.10, stat priority based off itemvalue cost was:
Hit Rating > Agility / AP > Crit Rating

Using Cheeky's spreadsheet with 2.10 Kill Command Mechanics, this has changed to:
Hit Rating / Crit Rating > Agility > AP

I'd predict this is where the major difference is coming from for you.

No the figure I gave was about hunter's personal dps, I on purpose ignored the merged dps in order to see the difference between the 2 spreadsheets since Lactose's doesn't calculate pet damage.

If you are a Survival build the new Expose Weakness rates make Agility very, very valuable. It increases your chance to keep EW up, and increases the benefit from it.

Survival Hunters are pretty much going to be stacking Agility like hasn't been seen since 1.X again. The advantages to it just scale so well now. You reach a point where each point of Agility is effectively 1.15 * 1.25 * 1.04 = ~1.5 RAP effective on target.

I break down the differences between character sheet RAP, and the effective RAP on target. Are you seeing changes in the character RAP that are out of line? I won't discount the possiblity of bugs in the sheet, there have been a lot of changes, and not nearly enough time for me to test all talent combinations.

No I'm comparing pure pve MM builds. For Surv both show that +8 AGI > 16 AP for example. But for MM Lactose: 16 AP > 8 AGI but yours other way around. Thats what boggles me. The difference isn't minor.

What I'm using is comparing the dps change compared to no socket, 8 agi socket and 16 AP socket and see the ratio between the difference. While Lactose's table already have in installed (*hint* wish list ) And shows it I had to do it manually.

I actually just noticed you are using new Imp mark (440 rap) so I put it in Lactose table. I notices there is a huge difference about fighting 0 mitigation mobs (not using arcane for rotation) So I entered 32% mitigation for both tables:
Lactose: 1 agi = 1.66 RAP (Straight from table)

Using Cheeky's (Data for hunter only)
+1 AP = 0.183758864 dps
+1 AGI = 0.380008956 dps
AP to AGI ratio: 2.067976194

Merged with pet dps:

+1 AP = 0.205799736 dps
+1 AGI = 0.439491411 dps
AP to AGI ratio: 2.135529521

As you see HUGE difference.

Now here is something interesting. Removing all mitigation from all calculations (Make Cheeky spreadsheet remove Arcane shot from rotations, and do that same to Lactose by forcing rank 0 on the shot)

Lactose 1agi = 1.84 rap

Cheeky (hunter only) 1 agi = 2.068073999 rap
Cheeky (Merged with pet) 1 agi = 2.135723783 rap

This is more inline.

I have been having this exact discussion on the WoW boards and the specualtion is very confusing. I see it is just as confusing within these forums as those.

Nightarcher - I see the exact same results as do you from Lactose's spreadsheet, AP > Ag.

I am not gifted enough in the math department to argue the finer points but wanted to say a big THANKS to all that are attempting to.

It's interesting that you are trying to ratio the DPS gains of the 2 types of stats that way. I don't think I would have thought to do so quite like that.

Are you using the exact same numbers of the different shots in your rotations? Fundamentally the way we compute damage should be identical based on individual shots, RAP, crit%, talents, etc.

Did you factor in the +44 more RAP Master Marksman gives you on the new Hunter's Mark?

To be honest I haven't looked at Lactose's HICS in a while. Looking over it now, he and I use different assumptions in the frequency of shots. I don't think you'll have an easy time lining up much more than a Steady/Auto rotation between the two of them.

Looking at the way Lactose computes things he handles the combat results table better than I do. Mine allows for you to only crit what hits, instead of treating your crit% as absolute and misses coming from non-crit shots. If anything though, that should increase the value of Agility in his tables.

I also cannot find any place that Improved Aspect of the Hawk is covered in HICS. It shouldn't really make much of a difference in a steady/auto rotation since it's just a % increase if shots don't get clipped. Your ratios of Agility to RAP to DPS should remain fairly constant.

Ok, after punching my gear stats, talents, and weapon into Lactose's HICS & setting 0/5 IAotH in mine I get the following results:
HICS - 930.98 DPS, mine - 950.18 DPS - Pretty damn close. I'll investigate what average shot values are later.
HICS - 1 Agility = 2.01 RAP
Cheeky - 1 Agility = .44 DPS, 1 RAP = .24 DPS, 1Agility = 1.83 Agility

So there is a 10% difference in there. I'll try and delve into the guts of both spreadsheets and see where any discrepencies lie.

Keep in mind some of my averages are messed up, and use 100% crit on some abilities for some weird reason, as well as ignore Focused Fire.
Other than that I can't think of anything right now that would result in the discrepancy.
Locally, I've made a number of changes though, so if there is an error on my part I might have fixed it ages ago :P

And yeah... my suggested rates of firing skills is completely messed up, don't look too much into that.

My numbers before included a screwup on the ammo DPS I put in for HICS.

Also, HICS does not factor in Focused Fire to damage totals, using the correct ammo and my gear HICS computes the average autoshot to 1099.61, mine 1121.92. Thats 102% plus some rounding errors. Steady Shot averages are HICS - 1144.97, mine - 1168.19.

The downside to my shot rotation mechanic is that it is finite. After 50 shots it ends the time computations. This is going to skew the DPS calculations a tad. For the example here of a auto/steady rotation the Shot Rotation grid computes a time of 60.24 seconds for 25 Autos, 25 steadys. With the damages computed above this is 950.42 DPS. Just calculating DPS based on a 2.43 second cycle forever yields 942.43 DPS. I figure 1% difference is enough of a sacrifice in accuracy to allow for complicated shot rotations.

HICS DPS is 921.88, which is pretty much exactly what you'd get in my sheet by disabling FF and factoring in the Shot Rotation rounding.

Ok, so we've established Lactose and I are using almost identical formulas for shot damage. Now lets look at how we handle additional stats.

HICS adds in an additional RAP * LR * CE * MM to the RAP value. He then modifies the crit percentage based on one more agility * LR * CE. HICS computes average autoshot to 1000.18, disabling FF mine is 1000.15. Steady is 1145.55 to 1145.52 to mine. Sicne my sheet derives everything from gearing I don't have anything special to handle an extra stat. It just uses the aggregate you provide through gear and hand adjustments.

Total DPS computed is +0.48 for HICS, +0.43 for mine. I believe this is due to rounding errors in my calculations. I tend to use floor functions for some things to match tooltip values. It might be worth seeing where I can remove them.

Doing the same things for +1 RAP is +0.24 HICS, +0.24 mine. Bingo there.

So you see a few rounding errors in my spreadsheet, which for very minor changes (like 1 Agility or 1 RAP) can be magnified based on how you use them (especially ratioing them against one another). I still feel my spreadsheet works well when comparing different gear/talent/shot rotation combinations. But it's not as exact as HICS on the very fine level.

Cheeky would you then recomment using Lactose's as a way to compare armor or gems (say +16 AP vs +8 Agil) while utilizing your efforts for more of a maximizing shot rotations/DPS?

I have not used Cheeky's at this point so I can not comment on his yet.

Lactose - I use your spreadsheet primarily as a way to compare possible gear. I.e. do I want AP gems or crit, gloves #1 or gloves #2 etc. So what I'll do is enter in all my stats according to my armory info. I put the same damage values in for weapon excluding any bonuses (no +AP, stamina, crit. .. etc). In the same weapons section where you can add bonuses, I will input the stats from the two items I am comparing to see which one offers the most benefits based on my toons set up. That being said, I would really like to have a section where we could enter a piece of armor (very similar to comparing ranged weapons).


On a further tangent, has anyone looked a graphing the AP vs Crit vs DPS to see if a local max can be found?