[top]6% bonus damage avg. overall.

3% to all over the same 3 hits will give you 9% bonus for each of the 3 hits and the extra 3% bonus added for the crit to the total.

Cheeky · 02/23/08, 11:17 AM

Originally Posted by Novacaine

It seems like I managed to fix the combat log, so here we go for the results. My apologizes, I've been able to run a test only for each of the macros I posted above, well anyways here we go:

Here's the 1:1 castsequence macro - Modifed by Cheeky to show Auto Shot delays


DPS:663 CRIT: 27,2%

2/23 16:09:08.125  Dr. Boom is afflicted by Hunter's Mark.
2/23 16:09:12.359  Your Auto Shot crits Dr. Boom for 1063.
2/23 16:09:14.687  Your Auto Shot hits Dr. Boom for 498. (2.3s)
2/23 16:09:17.171  Your Auto Shot hits Dr. Boom for 493. (2.4s)
2/23 16:09:19.656  Your Auto Shot hits Dr. Boom for 461. (2.5s)
2/23 16:09:21.640  Your Auto Shot hits Dr. Boom for 468. (2.0s)
2/23 16:09:24.015  Your Auto Shot hits Dr. Boom for 432. (2.4s)
2/23 16:09:26.000  Your Auto Shot hits Dr. Boom for 437. (2.0s)
2/23 16:09:28.578  Your Auto Shot crits Dr. Boom for 1208. (2.5s)
2/23 16:09:30.890  Your Auto Shot hits Dr. Boom for 475. (2.3s)
2/23 16:09:33.750  Your Auto Shot hits Dr. Boom for 546. (2.9s)
2/23 16:09:35.203  Your Auto Shot crits Dr. Boom for 1227. (1.5s)
2/23 16:09:37.265  Your Auto Shot hits Dr. Boom for 516. (2.0s)
2/23 16:09:39.250  Your Auto Shot crits Dr. Boom for 1301. (2.0s)
2/23 16:09:41.187  Your Auto Shot hits Dr. Boom for 529. (1.9s)
2/23 16:09:43.171  Your Auto Shot hits Dr. Boom for 519. (2.0s)
2/23 16:09:45.390  Your Auto Shot crits Dr. Boom for 1263. (2.2)
2/23 16:09:47.140  Your Auto Shot hits Dr. Boom for 465. (1.8s)
2/23 16:09:49.203  Your Auto Shot hits Dr. Boom for 492. (2.1)
2/23 16:09:50.921  Your Auto Shot hits Dr. Boom for 492. (1.7s)
2/23 16:09:53.328  Your Auto Shot crits Dr. Boom for 1229. (2.4s)
2/23 16:09:55.140  Your Auto Shot hits Dr. Boom for 503. (1.8s)
2/23 16:09:57.078  Your Auto Shot crits Dr. Boom for 1244. (1.9s)
2/23 16:09:59.000  Your Auto Shot hits Dr. Boom for 494. (2.0s)
2/23 16:10:01.468  Your Auto Shot hits Dr. Boom for 506. (2.4s)
2/23 16:10:03.093  Your Auto Shot hits Dr. Boom for 507. (1.6s)
2/23 16:10:06.125  Your Auto Shot hits Dr. Boom for 531. (3.1s)
2/23 16:10:08.765  Your Auto Shot hits Dr. Boom for 511. (2.6s)
2/23 16:10:10.640  Your Auto Shot crits Dr. Boom for 1191. (1.9s)
2/23 16:10:12.656  Your Auto Shot hits Dr. Boom for 505. (2.0s)
2/23 16:10:14.578  Your Auto Shot hits Dr. Boom for 473. (1.9s)
2/23 16:10:16.515  Your Auto Shot hits Dr. Boom for 463. (2.0s)
2/23 16:10:18.796  Your Auto Shot hits Dr. Boom for 526. (2.2s)
2/23 16:10:20.890  Your Auto Shot hits Dr. Boom for 488. (2.1s)
2/23 16:10:22.609  Your Auto Shot crits Dr. Boom for 1216. (1.8s)
2/23 16:10:24.843  Your Auto Shot hits Dr. Boom for 463. 
2/23 16:10:26.734  Your Auto Shot hits Dr. Boom for 519.
2/23 16:10:28.546  Your Auto Shot hits Dr. Boom for 488.
2/23 16:10:30.671  Your Auto Shot hits Dr. Boom for 472.
2/23 16:10:32.609  Your Auto Shot crits Dr. Boom for 1187.
2/23 16:10:34.734  Your Auto Shot crits Dr. Boom for 1098.
2/23 16:10:36.625  Your Auto Shot crits Dr. Boom for 1111.
2/23 16:10:38.546  Your Auto Shot crits Dr. Boom for 1356.
2/23 16:10:40.250  Your Auto Shot hits Dr. Boom for 511.
2/23 16:10:42.718  Your Auto Shot crits Dr. Boom for 1334.
2/23 16:10:44.531  Your Auto Shot hits Dr. Boom for 559.
2/23 16:10:46.281  Your Auto Shot hits Dr. Boom for 537.
2/23 16:10:48.500  Your Auto Shot hits Dr. Boom for 462.
2/23 16:10:50.359  Your Auto Shot hits Dr. Boom for 509.
2/23 16:10:52.703  Your Auto Shot crits Dr. Boom for 1168.
2/23 16:10:54.609  Your Auto Shot hits Dr. Boom for 505.
2/23 16:10:56.406  Your Auto Shot crits Dr. Boom for 1219.
2/23 16:10:58.656  You gain Quick Shots.
2/23 16:10:58.890  Your Auto Shot hits Dr. Boom for 506.
2/23 16:11:00.750  Your Auto Shot hits Dr. Boom for 532.
2/23 16:11:02.843  Your Auto Shot crits Dr. Boom for 1116.
2/23 16:11:04.890  Your Auto Shot hits Dr. Boom for 475.
2/23 16:11:06.953  Your Auto Shot hits Dr. Boom for 481.
2/23 16:11:08.796  Your Auto Shot hits Dr. Boom for 431.
2/23 16:11:10.968  Your Auto Shot crits Dr. Boom for 1120.
2/23 16:11:13.187  Your Auto Shot hits Dr. Boom for 473.
2/23 16:11:14.296  Quick Shots fades from you.
2/23 16:11:16.015  Your Auto Shot crits Dr. Boom for 1008.
2/23 16:11:17.250  Your Auto Shot hits Dr. Boom for 419.
2/23 16:11:19.515  Your Auto Shot hits Dr. Boom for 431.
2/23 16:11:21.218  Your Auto Shot crits Dr. Boom for 1134.
2/23 16:11:23.703  Your Auto Shot hits Dr. Boom for 448.
2/23 16:11:25.640  Your Auto Shot hits Dr. Boom for 400.
2/23 16:11:27.781  Your Auto Shot crits Dr. Boom for 967.
2/23 16:11:30.203  Your Auto Shot hits Dr. Boom for 435.
2/23 16:11:32.015  Your Auto Shot hits Dr. Boom for 440.

Looks like a lot of your Auto shots are 2+ seconds apart. Not all, but I'd run this log through Glau's tool and see how bad your overall clipping is. It looks really bad.

And I need to stess again - the reason people see huge gains with the 3:2 macro isn't because it is super-better. It's because they didn't know had bad the /castsequence macro was clipping them.

Hrank · 02/23/08, 12:00 PM

Missing item:

[Shapeshifter's Signet]

The way I read what expertise rating does, taking it into account has about the same effect(s) as hit rating. The statistic doesn't exist (if I'm not mistaken) in the spreadsheet and would need to be added in the gear selection and on the custom gear tab.

Edit: thanks for clearing both things up. We're using the [ wowitem ] tag on our forum
Edit2: The ring actually adds 20 expertise rating. The dagger and feral rating are outdated.

Lactose · 02/23/08, 12:03 PM

Expertise reduces the target's chance dodge and parry. Since ranged attacks are not subject to dodge or parry, Expertise has no effect on ranged attacks.

Edit: Also, the proper format for linking items is
[ item]Shapeshifter's Signet[/item] - without the space between "[" and "item]".

Ivaldi · 02/23/08, 12:04 PM

From Expertise - WoWWiki

One point of Expertise decreases the chance that melee attacks made by the player will be dodged or parried by 0.25%.

Only applies to melee, therefore is mostly a waste of itemization for a hunter.

Rokh · 02/24/08, 1:49 AM

Originally Posted by anjel

Cheeky, thanks for the quick reply.

1.) I think you are referring to the post where you mention trying to model the new macro? I guess by modeling that you would in effect handle the auto/steady/steady rotation for gear/specs where effective weapon speed was above certain threshold, e.g. MM or Surv builds.

2.) Is it more difficult to model [Design: Thundering Skyfire Diamond] than IAoH or DST?

In any case, what do you think about these approximations/calculations (assuming pure auto/steady rotation with a BM build):

With no metagem your spreadsheet reports (using some random gear and AS/SS rotation):
hunter dps: 806.55

If I equip [Relentless Earthstorm Diamond] your spreadsheet reports (with the same gear & rotation):
hunter dps: 818.25

If I equip [Thundering Skyfire Diamond]:
I do the following calculations (for simple auto/steady rotation):
240 haste rating --> 240/15.7 ~= 15.3% faster attacks for 6 seconds
Assuming 1ppm, or approx. 10% uptime, you could say it averages out to about 1.53% faster attacks
That in turn (again, assuming AS/SS rotation) is about 1.53% extra dps
That would mean, hunter dps should be: 1.0153 * 806.55 = 818.89

Do you think I signifficantly oversimplified anything?

Now that we're done with all the hubbub for the most part about the 3:2 rotation modeling, I remembered this post and took a look again. For me, if those numbers hold water, the meta would be about an 8 dps upgrade over Relentless Earthstorm. Of course speed doesn't translate directly into DPS like that, but still, 8 dps is a large enough margin that I think it warrants at least some preliminary testing in the spreadsheet. I'll see what I can do, should just be able to change the numbers on IotH.

Revdarian · 02/24/08, 9:36 AM

There seems to be a bug on the latest Cheeky´s spreadsheet on the hit calculation, seems that due to a small slip it is considering the chance to miss lvl 73 mobs (bosses) as +4% instead of +3.6%, i noticed it as my programmed gear which hitted 137HR mark still shows a 0.4% or so chance to miss with shots, which we know shouldnt be.

EDIT:

Thanks for the answer then, hmm, guess i will have to throw in an 8hit rating gem in there then.

Cheeky · 02/24/08, 9:45 AM

Originally Posted by Revdarian

There seems to be a bug on the latest Cheeky´s spreadsheet on the hit calculation, seems that due to a small slip it is considering the chance to miss lvl 73 mobs (bosses) as +4% instead of +3.6%, i noticed it as my programmed gear which hitted 137HR mark still shows a 0.4% or so chance to miss with shots, which we know shouldnt be.

Latest results confirm base 9% miss chance against a target 3 levels higher.

Kharthus · 02/24/08, 2:15 PM

Originally Posted by rothomp3

Older versions of Mac Office don't work with any of the VB stuff, either. The only way to use the spreadsheet to its fullest is with a copy of Parallels and the Windows version of Office

That is very true. I'm running Office 2004 and lots of the buttons and pulldowns don't work correctly. And I'll still running a PowerPC machine so no Parallels for me until I upgrade.

Midnight · 02/25/08, 5:24 AM

There´s currently a bug on PTR that allows "duping" stats (details). I don´t see any harm beeing done using it solely on PTR but it´s propably a great way to (re)check theories about the two-roll system or internal cast speed of auto shot etc.

edit:
Timestamps in the Combatlog of me with 0.15s auto shot speed (1308.88% haste iirc) shooting at Dr. Boom

47.890
48.328 +0.438s
48.484 +0.156s
48.703 +0.219s
48.812 +0.109s
49.281 +0.469s
49.296 +0.015s
49.593 +0.297s
49.593 +0.000s
49.906 +0.313s
49.984 +0.078s
50.171 +0.187s
50.515 +0.344s
50.703 +0.188s
51.000 +0.297s
51.015 +0.015s
51.171 +0.156s
51.609 +0.438s

average time between 2 Shots: 0.219s

Unfortunatly I didn´t have the time to do a longer test series but it certainly seems like the supposedly 0.5s "cast time" of auto shot can be lowered with haste.

Blonda · 02/25/08, 8:21 AM

Hi, 1st time poster here.

I'd like to find out the best outcome for 3 talent point spots. Here is some rough math unless there are unseen variables I'm missing. {Givin a humanoid target}, 3 points into MS or HS.

18% bonus damage to your crits
or
3% damage to all hits+ 3% additional damage to crits. (includes the allready +3% regular hits)

to simplify, hits will be 3 shots and 1 bieng counted as a crit. or 33.33% crit

So far here is what i get.

The 18% bonus will get divided by (3) for the 1/3rd of the time you get the bonus used.

[top]6% bonus damage avg. overall.

3% to all over the same 3 hits will give you 9% bonus for each of the 3 hits and the extra 3% bonus added for the crit to the total.

12% bonus overall.

This topic was brought up before but was not accounting for the bonus to crit on HS.

Is this wrong? If so please help. Thanks

Caell · 02/26/08, 3:02 AM

Originally Posted by Novacaine

Note: All live testing were performed using Imp. AotH / Hourglass of the unraveller, Hunter Mark always up and Crit % was constant with the value I have, 30%. Live testing is a result of 3 sessions (Lenght of the session= time till I ran out of mana)on Dr Boom, under the same conditions.

For 1:1 Steady/Auto Rotation.

#showtooltip Auto Shot
/castsequence reset=3 Steady Shot, Auto Shot
/castrandom [target=pettarget, exists] Kill Command
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear()

Reasons for different results:

Mistake in your 1:1 macro, needs "!Auto Shot"
Great dependancy of the 3:2 rotation on lag! (even small changes affect it greatly)
IAotH random procs
Hourglass of the Unraveller random procs
Different lengths of sessions probably (3:2 shorter than 1:1, uses more mana)

The most important reason ofcourse is the first one. Your macro actually doesn't fire autoshots, just turns them on & off.

Lawkenah · 02/26/08, 6:32 AM

Perhaps I have missed a couple threads here on the forums, but I swear I can't find anything on Haste gear or Armor Penetration gear. I've heard mixed things about haste gear being bad due to GC issues, but at the same time I have been told that's not true. Same issue with Armor Pen gear. People say as a Hunter you'd never be able to stack enough on your gear for it to be effective. Can someone please post a spreadsheet or formula that shows how haste/armor pen actually works for hunters. I would greatly appreciate it.

ghungadihn · 02/26/08, 5:07 PM

Anyone else thinking that Stanchion of Primal Instinct ought to be modeled in there? I know strength has no play for us but as a survival hunter the ability to pick up 105 agi on a single piece of gear is absurd. 350 armor penetration on top of that? The kittys are going to get pissed when we want to roll on their gear.

Glaurong · 02/26/08, 5:48 PM

I really can't see a guild giving you that unless it would rot otherwise.

Shivering Felspine - Items - World of Warcraft is only 13 Agi less.

Blade of Infamy - Items - World of Warcraft x 2 + enchants is only 9 Agi less.

Rifeus · 02/26/08, 6:52 PM

Am I saying something that's to obvious, but isn't the stats on the three new groonstalker items wrong in the spreadsheet?

I think it's supposed to be http://static.mmo-champion.com/mmoc/...6v3_hunter.jpg

[top]6% bonus damage avg. overall. 3% to all over the same 3 hits will give you 9% bonus for each of the 3 hits and the extra 3% bonus added for the crit to the total.

[top]6% bonus damage avg. overall.

3% to all over the same 3 hits will give you 9% bonus for each of the 3 hits and the extra 3% bonus added for the crit to the total.