Hunter Spreadsheets -- In development - Page 11

Cheeky · 05/31/07, 1:54 PM

Version 17 of my spreadsheet is now available.

Changes:
- Gear updates, including gear form Hyjal and BT (work for this done by Vaxum).
- Pet DPS uses 1-roll system now.
- Support +haste on gear.
- Edited values of % increase per point of haste rating to match in-game calculations.
- Fixed haste issues in Shot Rotation tab.
- Reorganized Calculations tab to be easier to find things.
- Ferocious Inspiration now applies to Steady Shot.
- Added "Debuff on Target" section to Buff tab. This is a work in progress, let me know if you think of other things to put in here.
- Modeled the Crystalforged Trinket form Ogri'la rep.
- Added socket bonuses for Neck items.
- Added in ability to specify customized gear for each slot. You can easily switch between your custom pieces and the normal gear items provided.
- Added ability to Save/Load a gear set. This is another work in progress, and can be expanded to support multiple sets of gear.

As always, comments, bug reports, and criticism welcomed.

Xeno · 05/31/07, 6:18 PM

I'm pretty sure glancing chance should be ~24%. (vs level 73 mobs)

Cheeky · 05/31/07, 6:55 PM

Originally Posted by Xeno

I'm pretty sure glancing chance should be ~24%. (vs level 73 mobs)

I haven't seen any real solid math yet post-patch to know what the rates are. What I have now is from the WoWWiki and before the changes.

If you could link me something I'll update for it. Right now it works out to -26% total effect on white damage. Changing the chance from 40% to 24% (are the damage rates the same?) lowers the penalty to 16%.

khel · 06/01/07, 4:20 AM

Originally Posted by Cheeky

Version 17 of my spreadsheet is now available.

Changes:
- Gear updates, including gear form Hyjal and BT (work for this done by Vaxum).
- Pet DPS uses 1-roll system now.
- Support +haste on gear.
- Edited values of % increase per point of haste rating to match in-game calculations.
- Fixed haste issues in Shot Rotation tab.
- Reorganized Calculations tab to be easier to find things.
- Ferocious Inspiration now applies to Steady Shot.
- Added "Debuff on Target" section to Buff tab. This is a work in progress, let me know if you think of other things to put in here.
- Modeled the Crystalforged Trinket form Ogri'la rep.
- Added socket bonuses for Neck items.
- Added in ability to specify customized gear for each slot. You can easily switch between your custom pieces and the normal gear items provided.
- Added ability to Save/Load a gear set. This is another work in progress, and can be expanded to support multiple sets of gear.

As always, comments, bug reports, and criticism welcomed.

Cheeky would you mind including the dps bonus from TBW? If it's up 18 seconds out of every 120 (15% of the time), increasing the hunter's dmg by 10% and pet's by 50%, then it is a straight 1.5% bonus to the hunter's personal dps, and 7.5% bonus to the pet's dps. ATM it doesn't look like your spreadsheet considers this.

Xoran · 06/01/07, 5:23 AM

Just checked and it seems that the 3% crit damage bonus of the Relentless Earthstorm meta gem is not accounted for. Would be nice if it is possible to add that too.
However thank you for all the time you put into this spreadsheet!

Fimbo · 06/01/07, 7:10 AM

Originally Posted by Cheeky

If you look at the Calculations tab in my spreadsheet you can see how hit rating and mob level work together to generate a chance to hit. Against level 73 mobs with typical Defense you need 8.6% hit to not miss. And 136 (not 126) rating is needed for non-Survival Hunters to get +8.6% ranged hit.

You can hand code in different levels of RAP and hit on the gear page (blue section) and see how that changes overall DPS. It is not going to be a linear relationship.

Without running a tool like WWS or Recap it's very hard to tell if you miss a few shots on a long boss fight.

Thanks Cheeky.

I was being a user.

The sheet i'd downloaded before was just a list of items(?!).

But i downloaded the new one and made perfect sense.
I got some rough figures on base DPS at different RAP/to hit.

It must of been a huge job of work so thank you very much for your efforts!
I'm pointing all our hunters at the sheet to go learn!

Sapa · 06/01/07, 7:16 AM

Originally Posted by Cheeky

I haven't seen any real solid math yet post-patch to know what the rates are. What I have now is from the WoWWiki and before the changes.

If you could link me something I'll update for it. Right now it works out to -26% total effect on white damage. Changing the chance from 40% to 24% (are the damage rates the same?) lowers the penalty to 16%.

Cheeky, i can provide some WWSs with my cat showing 19-24% glancing on bosses.
I think i saw Osse WWS that had 16% glancing on Void Reaver too.

Cheeky · 06/01/07, 8:58 AM

Originally Posted by khel

Cheeky would you mind including the dps bonus from TBW? If it's up 18 seconds out of every 120 (15% of the time), increasing the hunter's dmg by 10% and pet's by 50%, then it is a straight 1.5% bonus to the hunter's personal dps, and 7.5% bonus to the pet's dps. ATM it doesn't look like your spreadsheet considers this.

Right now I have TBW as something you can proc for the Hunter's benefit in the Shot Rotation. However, I do nothing to adjust the pet DPS during this time. Let me think about this a bit and see if I can come up with a solution I like.

Originally Posted by Xoran

Just checked and it seems that the 3% crit damage bonus of the Relentless Earthstorm meta gem is not accounted for. Would be nice if it is possible to add that too.
However thank you for all the time you put into this spreadsheet!

Yeah, I meant to add that, but forgot. I'll try and get it in for the next version. Should I assume they will fix it for Arcane shot, or just have it count for all the others like it is working in game now?

Originally Posted by Sapa

Cheeky, i can provide some WWSs with my cat showing 19-24% glancing on bosses.
I think i saw Osse WWS that had 16% glancing on Void Reaver too.

That's great, but I want to know why those numbers are being seen now. Does anyone know the math behind the new rate? I'm not sure if one or two WWS logs is enough of a sample size to draw conclusions from. If we start seeing all data looking this way, for all classes, then I'll adjust the rates (or make them user settable).

Sapa · 06/01/07, 9:26 AM

Originally Posted by Cheeky

That's great, but I want to know why those numbers are being seen now. Does anyone know the math behind the new rate? I'm not sure if one or two WWS logs is enough of a sample size to draw conclusions from. If we start seeing all data looking this way, for all classes, then I'll adjust the rates (or make them user settable).

Well its in the 2.1 patch notes ^^
That they reduced glancing rate. Anyway wasn't there a paladin (on this board) that hit kurinax like 100.000x to test glancings/weaponskill on PTR/Live?

Edit:
Gathering some data:
1. http://elitistjerks.com/showpost.php...4&postcount=14
~25% glancing, and glancing reduces damage ~25%

2.

Pre patch numbers were (IIRC): 40% glancing chance, 24% glancing penalty

The logs in the weapon skill thread in the class mechanics subforum place the glancing chance at ca 20% post patch and glancing penalty still ca 24%.

So neglecting crits and nonconnecting swings you are looking at

pre patch white damage: 0.6*1+0.4*0.76=0.904

post patch white damage: 0.8*1+0.2*0.76=0.952

Djinn · 06/01/07, 8:47 PM

Cheeky in your new version every item that has socket bonus is getting "achieved" even without the correct gems.

Djinn · 06/01/07, 9:16 PM

I don't think Talon of Alar bonus damage is working on the spreadsheet.

Cheeky · 06/01/07, 9:34 PM

Originally Posted by Djinn

Cheeky in your new version every item that has socket bonus is getting "achieved" even without the correct gems.

It's a bug in the Save/Load script. I'll try and get a corrected version up soon.

Cheeky · 06/01/07, 9:43 PM

Originally Posted by Djinn

I don't think Talon of Alar bonus damage is working on the spreadsheet.

Nope, because I haven't added it yet.

Version 18 is up, which fixes the Socket Bonus bug and adds in the Relentless Earthstorm Diamond.

Djinn · 06/02/07, 8:20 PM

Hey Cheeky when you add the Talon of Al'ar Bonus, it doesn't add the damage to Auto shots. Just so you know. =)

cipro · 06/02/07, 9:55 PM

'Belt of the Black Eagle' as shown has one blue socket and no yellow socket on your spreadsheet Cheeky.

Xoran · 06/07/07, 6:08 AM

Just played around with Cheeky's spreadsheet and noticed "Mantle of the Tireless Tracker" is listed with 33 hit rating which should be crit rating!

Groggan · 06/07/07, 4:17 PM

Cheeky, or any of the others who have been working on formulas for hunter damage, is there a single formula for calculating base dps w/o specials? One that takes weapon damage, weapon speed, rap, crit%, crit modifier, and damage modifier as inputs to give DPS as output? I want to say I worked one out a while ago, but can't find it now.

Basically, I want to create a crit/ap/agi valuation based off DPS to help with quick itemization decisions for myself and my hunter friends. It doesn't need to be perfect, just something to help us choose between gems etc.

It was something like...

DPS = (1+DAMAGEMOD) * [(1-%crit)*(AVGWEAPDAMGE/WEAPSPEED)+(crit%)*(1+CRITMODIFIER)*(AVGWEAPDAMAGE/WEAPSPEED)]

I can't remember where RAP fits into the equation (is it part of figuring out AVGWEAPDAMAGE?, or is it just the added on as RAP/14?), and I don't think I ever accounted for ammo either. Ultimately, I'd like to make an equation that takes your current paper doll DPS, your current Crit, and your current RAP, and find the DPS increase from increasing crit by 1 and then rap by 1, and thus be able to combine those results to find DPS increase from increasing agi by 1 (which could then be weighted for LR and BoK bonuses).

Cheeky · 06/07/07, 6:00 PM

Originally Posted by Groggan

Cheeky, or any of the others who have been working on formulas for hunter damage, is there a single formula for calculating base dps w/o specials? One that takes weapon damage, weapon speed, rap, crit%, crit modifier, and damage modifier as inputs to give DPS as output? I want to say I worked one out a while ago, but can't find it now.

Basically, I want to create a crit/ap/agi valuation based off DPS to help with quick itemization decisions for myself and my hunter friends. It doesn't need to be perfect, just something to help us choose between gems etc.

It was something like...

DPS = (1+DAMAGEMOD) * [(1-%crit)*(AVGWEAPDAMGE/WEAPSPEED)+(crit%)*(1+CRITMODIFIER)*(AVGWEAPDAMAGE/WEAPSPEED)]

I can't remember where RAP fits into the equation (is it part of figuring out AVGWEAPDAMAGE?, or is it just the added on as RAP/14?), and I don't think I ever accounted for ammo either. Ultimately, I'd like to make an equation that takes your current paper doll DPS, your current Crit, and your current RAP, and find the DPS increase from increasing crit by 1 and then rap by 1, and thus be able to combine those results to find DPS increase from increasing agi by 1 (which could then be weighted for LR and BoK bonuses).

This is probably in at least 1 other place on the forums, but the equation for autoshot damage is (barring misses):
(((WeaponDPS + AmmoDPS + RAP/14) * WeaponBaseSpeead) + ScopeDamage) * (1 + (Crit% * CritDamageModifier * SlayingCritModifier)) * FocusedFire * RangedWeaponSpecialization * SlayingTalents

Divide that by your actual autoshot speed (on character sheet) and you have DPS.

Groggan · 06/07/07, 7:19 PM

Thanks Cheeky, saw your post on the main forums too, thanks again.

For those interested, I've made a small spreadsheet that calculates your average Auto, Steady, Arcane, and Mutli Shot values with some basic input parameters. It also calculates those values for +2AP, +1Crit Rating, +1 Agi, +1 Agi with LR, and +1 Agi with LR and BoK. If someone wants I can add in +1 Agi with BoK. xls link here.

If you see any glaring problems let me know.

Cheeky · 06/07/07, 7:49 PM

I just uploaded version 19 of my spreadsheet. Here is the change log, if anyone is interested:
- Adjusted critical hit rating to 22.0765 points per % crit.
- Fixed Custom Item usage for melee weapons.
- Corrected items. (Belt of the Black Eagle, Mantle of the Tireless Tracker)
- Added in my initial modeling of Scorpid Poison.
- Adjusted Tauren base stats, oh and spelled their name correctly….
- Fixed a really stupid bug where Steady Shot cast times were getting an extra 100% haste effect.
- Added training points for Avoidance
- Added new gear (Necklace of the Deep). This meant adding a second gem slot to neck items.

Groggan · 06/07/07, 7:53 PM

Oh, and an idea I had in the vein of valuation of stats, would be to create a tool that takes the same input as my mini-spreadsheet, and creates three curves for each shot, one that is damage by crit change starting from your current crit, one that is damage by rap change starting from your current rap, and one that is damage by rap and crit change starting from your current rap and crit (this last one would of course be a 3d graph). Each could have a given range (I'd think based on itemization points, maybe 10 item levels worth of points or something). It could also be extended to have a shot cycle as input and create a 3d graph for dps changes based on those two axis.

The reason I think this would be useful is because the single-increment valuation is useful for a gauge, but if you add more than that increment your valuation starts losing more and more accuracy (because for each variable the valuation actually depends on that variable, savvy?). I mean, while people dish out the idea that 14RAP = 1DPS the reality is that the RAP-DPS graph is a curve when taking fluctuating crit values into consideration (14RAP at x crit is really zDPS, but at y crit it is aDPS). With the curves you could get a feel for relative slopes and figure out at any give point when to shift your focus for itemization.

Does something like that sound useful to you guys? I kinda think so, since it would be gear-independent and allow for a better sense of what kind of upgrades are more beneficial (instead of what specific upgrade is best buy guess and checking it in one of the inclusive spreadsheets).

Update: I think I settled on the best visualization for it. A single 3d graph with DPS, Crit %(rating?), and RAP as the axises. It'd take the same inputs as my spreadsheet plus a shot cycle/duration and pop out the proper graph. For spice the agi curves for each of the buff-states could be drawn on as well. Maybe allow for the suspension of one axis (dropping it down to DPS and Crit for instance) and the isolation of the agi curves (so the axises would be DPS and agi). Hmm...yes, I think those would be interesting. Could a spreadsheet do that? Or would it need to be a 3d graphing tool?

Djinn · 06/07/07, 8:47 PM

Hey Cheeky Band of Eternity friendly/honored have the wrong stats for them.

The Iron Colonel · 06/07/07, 9:01 PM

Originally Posted by Groggan

Oh, and an idea I had in the vein of valuation of stats, would be to create a tool that takes the same input as my mini-spreadsheet, and creates three curves for each shot, one that is damage by crit change starting from your current crit, one that is damage by rap change starting from your current rap, and one that is damage by rap and crit change starting from your current rap and crit (this last one would of course be a 3d graph). Each could have a given range (I'd think based on itemization points, maybe 10 item levels worth of points or something). It could also be extended to have a shot cycle as input and create a 3d graph for dps changes based on those two axis.

The reason I think this would be useful is because the single-increment valuation is useful for a gauge, but if you add more than that increment your valuation starts losing more and more accuracy (because for each variable the valuation actually depends on that variable, savvy?). I mean, while people dish out the idea that 14RAP = 1DPS the reality is that the RAP-DPS graph is a curve when taking fluctuating crit values into consideration (14RAP at x crit is really zDPS, but at y crit it is aDPS). With the curves you could get a feel for relative slopes and figure out at any give point when to shift your focus for itemization.

Does something like that sound useful to you guys? I kinda think so, since it would be gear-independent and allow for a better sense of what kind of upgrades are more beneficial (instead of what specific upgrade is best buy guess and checking it in one of the inclusive spreadsheets).

Update: I think I settled on the best visualization for it. A single 3d graph with DPS, Crit %(rating?), and RAP as the axises. It'd take the same inputs as my spreadsheet plus a shot cycle/duration and pop out the proper graph. For spice the agi curves for each of the buff-states could be drawn on as well. Maybe allow for the suspension of one axis (dropping it down to DPS and Crit for instance) and the isolation of the agi curves (so the axises would be DPS and agi). Hmm...yes, I think those would be interesting. Could a spreadsheet do that? Or would it need to be a 3d graphing tool?

You're essentially asking for plane curves that lie in a plane that crosses the AP/CRIT/HIT axes at certain values. For each shot, it should be possible to determine the formula dictating damage (this is done already for pretty much all shots as it stands). If nothing else, having the partial derivatives of each of the major players (ap/crit/hit) in the equation wouldn't be too difficult. Honestly, though, given how dependent hunter dps is on the sequence of abilities rather than maximizing the individual ability, I'm not sure how much practical value this would have.

Groggan · 06/07/07, 9:12 PM

Originally Posted by The Iron Colonel

You're essentially asking for plane curves that lie in a plane that crosses the AP/CRIT/HIT axes at certain values. For each shot, it should be possible to determine the formula dictating damage (this is done already for pretty much all shots as it stands). If nothing else, having the partial derivatives of each of the major players (ap/crit/hit) in the equation wouldn't be too difficult. Honestly, though, given how dependent hunter dps is on the sequence of abilities rather than maximizing the individual ability, I'm not sure how much practical value this would have.

That's why I was saying to have the program take a shot cylce as input (I'm thinking # of each shot and time for cycle would work). So something like:

Variable Equations	X = Change in Crit %, Y = Change in RAP
Variable Auto Shot Damage	((Crit % + X) * (Crit Multiplier) + (Hit % - (Crit % +X))) * (Average Weapon Damage + Scope + Ammo Damage + (((RAP + Y) / 14) * Weapon Speed))

Variable Steady Shot Damage	((Crit % + X) * (Crit Multiplier) + (Hit % - (Crit % + X))) * ((.2 * (RAP + Y)) + 150 + (Weapon DPS * 2.8))

Variable Arcane Shot Damage	((Crit % + X) * (Crit Multiplier) + (Hit % - (Crit % + X))) * ((.15 * (RAP + Y)) + 273)

Variable Multi Shot Damage	((Crit % + X) * (Crit Multiplier) + (Hit % - (Crit % + X))) * (Average Weapon Damage + Scope + Ammo Damage + 205 + (((RAP + Y) / 14) * 2.8))
	
DPS Equation	((# Auto Shots) * (Variable Auto Shot Damage) + (# Steady Shots) * (Variable Steady Shot Damage) + (# Arcane Shots) * (Variable Arcane Shot Damage) + (# Multi Shots) * (Variable Multi Shot Damage)) / (Seconds To Complete Cycle)

Graph the final DPS equation with X and Y as the variables and all other values being user input.

On a separate note, do damage multipliers just get multiplied on at the end? So the variable equation for auto shot including damage multipliers would be the following?

[((Crit % + X) * (Crit Multiplier) + (Hit % - (Crit % +X))) * (Average Weapon Damage + Scope + Ammo Damage + (((RAP + Y) / 14) * Weapon Speed))] * Damage Multiplier

edit: Oh, and I'm not asking for someone else to do it, I'm asking if anyone would be interested in that kind of tool, I'd be more than happy to make it since I'm kinda hankering for a side project to work on in my free time :P

The Iron Colonel · 06/07/07, 9:38 PM

Ah ok, I misread you the first time. If it's done with respect to rotation input, then that might be a handy tool to have. I don't really have time or ability to aid in authoring any side projects currently (started managing a new project at work...kind of eats up time), but I'd be glad to help with the math in any way possible.