Hunter Spreadsheets -- In development - Page 2

Arganise · 02/08/07, 2:56 AM

HICS 2.0 has always been my most used tool when it came to optimizing my hunter, so I'm excited to see another spreadsheet for the expansion. :)

I've been messsing around with it abit and I stumbled upon a few questions (2 so far xD)

First of all, is the weapon skill rating working? Doesn't seem to effect DPS if I play with the numbers there.

Secondly, I'm quite confused with how the Shots fields work (i.e. Seconds between Auto Shots). I have some idea, but it would help alot if you could explain abit how to use it properly. :)

Thanks. ^^

Auxilium · 02/08/07, 4:48 AM

Back when the first changes were announced I briefly considered *not* taking the Improved Arcane Shot talent. Have you been considering any potentional benefits of a 6 sec Arcane Shot over 5 sec Arcane Shots? Being able to spend 5 points elsewhere might improve overall performance. I know this is not directly related to the spreadsheet, but then it would affect your cycle.

On the subject of Beast Mastery, I would definitely consider implenting a section for pets. Most of the pet DPS is not dependant on hunter actions, it would depend on gear and with Kill Command, you can affect your pets DPS with your ranged weapon. Besides that tho, seeing how viable the tree is and with the announcement of more pet abilities, I would've been interested in being able to calculate pet specific things.

I think you'll know what Talents to include from the BM tree ( :P ) and the other trees and the model will be complete once one could take into account the pet specific ability (Lightning Breath etc.) and Kill Command.

Caithen · 02/08/07, 5:36 AM

Originally Posted by Cheeky

My spreadsheet I linked earlier in this thread (Worksheet) allows for each person to set up their own shot cycle, so it can be tailored to their weapon speed.

Enjoying playing this this right now Cheeky, but is there any chance you could post a version where the sheets holding item/enchant data are not hidden/locked, as I would like to use the nice format, rather than a massive user-add row.

Cheeky · 02/08/07, 9:46 AM

Originally Posted by Caithen

Enjoying playing this this right now Cheeky, but is there any chance you could post a version where the sheets holding item/enchant data are not hidden/locked, as I would like to use the nice format, rather than a massive user-add row.

I'm glad you are enjoying it.

I included some newer gear in the version I posted yesterday afternoon (Version 3). There are a couple of reasons why I have the gear listing hidden:
1 - I'm a bit of a control freak.
2 - By forcing people to tell me what gear/gems/enchants are missing, I learn about them. If anyone could just change it themsleves they probably would, and no on else might benefit (also see #1).
3 - Those pages aren't exactly in the nicest format. And there are a lot of them. I use a separate page for each slot, and 1 for gems. I figured no one really wanted to see all that junk. If you spot a bug in the numbers you see for a specific item, it's easy enough for me to correct and re-post. (also see #1 - there is a pattern here)

I'm hoping to update the spreadsheet every couple of days for new gear. Thottbat and Kaliban's (the 2 sources I've been using) are being updated daily. I don't think even all the items from the heroic 5 mans are in the sheet yet.

If there are sets of gear or specific items you'd like added you can send me a private message here (when they are back up) or at my guild website (Havoc).

I'm also still looking for accurate racial stats and base health/mana for non-Trolls. Right now those are all way off. (I actually think my health totals are off even for Trolls...)

Originally Posted by Glaurong

Numbers for other ranks of IAotH

5/5 : y = 0.777x^-0.7197
4/5 : y = 0.7721x^-0.7275
3/5 : y = 0.7683x^-0.7192
2/5 : y = 0.7608x^-0.7149
1/6 : y = 0.7568x^-0.7153

So if you really want to generalize it you can use:

Y = (-0.0052 * R + 0.7825) * X ^ (0.0021 * R - 0.7257)

Where Y is uptime, R is the rank and X is your permanently hasted weapon speed in seconds.

Plugging this into my spreadsheet I've found your numbers work out to be about 20-25% less than what I was using. Yours do "feel" more correct, as well as being based on a more solid method of simulation. I have always thought I was overestimating the impact of a tier 1 talent. My next version will remove that huge lookup table and just substitute in your equation.

Would you like credit for it to be given to "Glaurong of the Elitist Jerks forums" or something else?

tict · 02/08/07, 12:54 PM

So Lactose thanks for the spreadsheet. Quick question though, as noted above would it be correct to believe that a quick ranged weapon is really that much better then a slow/medium speed one?

The Consortium Blaster is showing to greatly lose out (I am a MM build) to the Wrathfire Handcannon:

Consortium Blaster
111 - 207 Damage Speed 2.40
(66.3 damage per second)
+15 Stamina
Durability 75 / 75
Requires Level 70
Requires The Consortium - Revered
Equip: Improves critical strike rating by 7.
Equip: Increases attack power by 36.

Wrathfire Hand-Cannon
Binds when picked up
Gun90 - 168 Damage Speed 2.00
(64.5 damage per second)
Durability 75 / 75
Requires Level 68
Equip: Improves critical strike rating by 15.
Equip: Increases attack power by 40.

The numbers I am seeing are 830 DPS versus 912 DPS, quite a huge difference IMO.
I was under the impression because I am speced for multi shot dmg, the slower wep would help me do more dmg per MS.

Would it be wise to go with slower weapons in BC now then? Thos Karaz epics included?

Thanks alot.

T

Azulor · 02/08/07, 1:18 PM

@Lactose. Apologies If I have the wrong version or am missing something, I'm sort of rushed. But,

1. The formulas for both arcane shot average and multishot average appear incorrect. For example, B176 upon simplification appears to return B175*B151, which is Multishot crit. This explains why changing entries in Improved Barrage have no impact on the final DPS calculations. Likewise, B164 returns B163*B151, basically arcane crit.

2. The logical statements you use to build the raw numbers from row 157 onwards are sensitive to B94 and B97, which are sensitive to B29 and B31 (also the C column for new DPS I suppose). You might want to change the default return on, for example, B97/C97 and B94/C94 to be max rank because as written with no entries in B29/C29 and B31/C31, the arcane and multishot damage gets computed as zero literally (not simply min zero added damage).

Nice work as always.

This should impact the agi/crit/rap tradeoffs (assuming there are indeed errors and I am not missing something).

taurenhunter · 02/08/07, 2:10 PM

I would like to make a suggestion: to put names on the relevant Excel columns/cells.

That way, a cryptic formula like
( ( C:C + D:D ) / 2 ) / E:E

would look like
( ( LowDmg + HighDmg ) / 2 ) / Speed

which is a lot easier to understand and troubleshoot.

The option to name a column or cell can be found on Insert > Name > Define or simply use the name box at the upper left corner of the spreadsheet.

I would upload my own spreadsheet to see if you guys would find anything useful but filefront is now under maintenance.
It looks like this
http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?k...BQNwWO24--JcCA
(old version published on Google - it doesn't show the formulas though).

Glaurong · 02/08/07, 3:47 PM

Originally Posted by Cheeky

I'm also still looking for accurate racial stats and base health/mana for non-Trolls. Right now those are all way off. (I actually think my health totals are off even for Trolls...)

When you do start getting naked stats for the different races remember that the first 10 stamina/intellect do nothing for your heal/mana totals.

Originally Posted by Cheeky

Would you like credit for it to be given to "Glaurong of the Elitist Jerks forums" or something else?

Glau of Hyjal is fine and thanks for asking.

Cheeky · 02/08/07, 3:59 PM

Originally Posted by Glaurong

Originally Posted by Cheeky

I'm also still looking for accurate racial stats and base health/mana for non-Trolls. Right now those are all way off. (I actually think my health totals are off even for Trolls...)

When you do start getting naked stats for the different races remember that the first 10 stamina/intellect do nothing for your heal/mana totals.

Thanks, I think I was operating under the idea the first 20 was ignored.

Originally Posted by Glaurong

Originally Posted by Cheeky

Would you like credit for it to be given to "Glaurong of the Elitist Jerks forums" or something else?

Glau of Hyjal is fine and thanks for asking.

No problem, you did the work on that.

Any other advice on bug fixes or features you'd like to see?

Lodi · 02/08/07, 6:19 PM

cheeky:

auto starts at 0.0, then steady starts at 0.0 ... you're not adding a .5 sec gap for auto to actually fire?

Cheeky · 02/08/07, 6:37 PM

Originally Posted by Lodi

cheeky:

auto starts at 0.0, then steady starts at 0.0 ... you're not adding a .5 sec gap for auto to actually fire?

No, not yet. I'm thinking of making the cooldown the normal cooldown - .5, then making a .5 casting time. That should account for everything.

Lactose · 02/08/07, 7:37 PM

Been busier than I expected, sorry.

Originally Posted by Vec

I was just wondering if you were planning on putting something similar to Blessing of Kings in the Buffs section.

Yup, it's planned.

Originally Posted by Lodi

Lactose, I didn't catch anything about modelling the interference from using arcane and multi (to both steady, and even the autoshot on a quite-fast weapon).

At the moment there's no support for this, still thinking of ways to make the shot / rotation tweaking work as good as possible.

Originally Posted by Shookers

It would be nice if you could include the relative value of Hit Rating as compared to Agility. As of now I've just been assuming it has approximately the same value as Crit Rating, yet I know that cannot be accurate.

It's planned.

Originally Posted by Arganise

Secondly, I'm quite confused with how the Shots fields work (i.e. Seconds between Auto Shots). I have some idea, but it would help alot if you could explain abit how to use it properly.

At this stage, it's very rough and extremely likely to be scrapped / revamped completely, so I'm hesitant of documenting it atm. If it's archaic to you, don't worry about it, things will be sorted out a bit later.

Originally Posted by Auxilium

Back when the first changes were announced I briefly considered *not* taking the Improved Arcane Shot talent. Have you been considering any potentional benefits of a 6 sec Arcane Shot over 5 sec Arcane Shots? Being able to spend 5 points elsewhere might improve overall performance. I know this is not directly related to the spreadsheet, but then it would affect your cycle.

Personally I think Improved Arcane Shot might be a bit of a waste compared to the other options, at least for raiding purposes.

Originally Posted by tict

So Lactose thanks for the spreadsheet. Quick question though, as noted above would it be correct to believe that a quick ranged weapon is really that much better then a slow/medium speed one?

If you're able to shoot like you've input, it should be accurate. However, I kinda highly doubt you're able to perform the abilities that perfect, making fast weapons not all that godlike.

Originally Posted by Azulor

1. The formulas for both arcane shot average and multishot average appear incorrect. For example, B176 upon simplification appears to return B175*B151, which is Multishot crit. This explains why changing entries in Improved Barrage have no impact on the final DPS calculations. Likewise, B164 returns B163*B151, basically arcane crit.

This is fixed locally, but not yet uploaded.

2. The logical statements you use to build the raw numbers from row 157 onwards are sensitive to B94 and B97, which are sensitive to B29 and B31 (also the C column for new DPS I suppose). You might want to change the default return on, for example, B97/C97 and B94/C94 to be max rank because as written with no entries in B29/C29 and B31/C31, the arcane and multishot damage gets computed as zero literally (not simply min zero added damage).

I don't have the spreadsheet open in front of me right now, so I'll have to check this a bit later.

Originally Posted by taurenhunter

I would like to make a suggestion: to put names on the relevant Excel columns/cells.

Nice idea, I'll see what I can do, even though it forces me to come up with sensible names for the cells ;)

I'd also like to thank Glaurong for the formula; credit where credit is due ;)

Also... someone asked me earlier if I'm German, due to some WAHR / FALSCH stuff... No, I'm not, nor do I have a German spreadsheet program installed, so I have no idea where this is from :P

Ato · 02/09/07, 6:02 AM

Sorry, but I forget. Is the RAP at the top of the spreadsheet your base RAP without either Hawk or TSA? And, do you add these to the RAP buffs below?

Lactose · 02/09/07, 6:35 AM

With.
When I get more talent stuff implemented (as in, different talent setups), it'll be without TSA, but for now just include it.

Cheeky · 02/09/07, 11:30 AM

Version 4 of my spreadsheet is available for download.

List of changes:
- Using Glau's equation for Improved Aspect of the Hawk uptime.
- Fixed trinkets/racials in shot rotation.
- Included Karazhan gear, what I could locate stats for.
- Added in 0.5 second cast time for auto shot (removing it from auto shot cooldown.)
- Added The Beast Within.

As always comments, criticisms, and ideas are always welcome.