Revith

Hi Cheeky, love the spreadsheet. It's been a huge help to me as I switched over from raiding as a mage to a hunter.

Anyway, I just won the Shoulderpads of the Stranger (Thottbot World of Warcraft: Shoulderpads of the Stranger) and noticed that your spreadsheet was missing the 1 red gem slot that they have. Just thought I'd point it out for your next update. Thanks for the continuing hard work!

 

Ralith

Nice info... good to know.

Just need to get some from the major bosses to see how we are doing.

Also Sunder and FF don't stack unless they have they have changed that recently.

 

◊ Lactose

I'll be adding more as I get the opportunity.

I honestly don't know. When they were active during testing, I just wrote it down. Ideally, I'd like to have the base armor mitigation for every boss. This can quite easily be calculated with:
1.) Armor mitigation I provide
2.) Armor mitigation formula (which I think I have)
3.) Better understanding of what stacks and not, especially in terms of -armor stuff.

Look, Lactose, we'd rather you didn't eradicate the whole human race.
- Sam & Max

 

Groggan

I thought they did. At least, I know way back in MC on the tele-porting guy (Shaz?) when a druid stacked FF on top of the Sundered mob my DPS increased (this was before stacking HM bonus, and even before ap procs and such). That of course is anecdotal.

 

Cheeky

I am in the process of better formatting the results of the spreadsheet into an easier to read and understand layout.

Here is a list of current information I am planning on displaying in a "results" tab:

Complete DPS - Hunter, Pet, Total, Mp5 used, % of damage between Hunter and Pet.
Pet DPS Breakdown - Melee, Special, Kill Command, and % each plays in pet total.
Haste Breakdown - per state (Normal, QS, DST, DST & QS) % of time, DPS, Rotation specified (1:1, 1:1.5, etc.) Mp5 used, Auto Shot cycle time.
Shot Statistics - Per shot damage, damage per mana, % it makes up of Hunter DPS.
Hunter Basic Statistics - Health, Armor, Mana, Resilience, Dodge

Is there anything else anyone thinks would work well? I'm really not sure what others look for out of the massive amount of data that gets compiled in the Calculations tabs.

Cheeky of Havoc

 

Challis

Amount of mana gained if thats even possible at the moment. I would love to find exactly how much mana I am 'gaining' from such abilities as Efficiency and Thrill of the Hunt.

 

Cheeky

That shows up as a reduction in the Mp5 "spent". I could provide time to OOM numbers as well.

Cheeky of Havoc

 

Lerastes

Is there a (preferably free) spreadsheet program that's not Excel that fully supports this? The lack of gems in OO.org is enough to be annoying and I can't afford Excel (Microsoft Works doesn't support more than one worksheet >_<).

 

Cheeky

There is a work around for the gems issue in OO several posts up in this thread. I may start providing a version for OO that has the gem fix already, since it's really trivial to do.

Cheeky of Havoc

 

Lerastes

Oh, I didn't even see that. Thanks!

Consequently, changing the Validation of the Ammo slot to =Ammo fixes the problem with that too (it was doing the same thing for Ammo to me with Gems, had a bunch of wierd things listed).

 

lunatrik

I am a S. Priest turned Hunter in the PvE world and one thing I would find very, very useful is a function that allows me to define:
1) Default Gems for Various types of Slots
2) Default Enchantments for Various Slots

Using the above 2 variables, if a list of equipment upgrades that would maximize (or increase by a certain threshold, ex. 1 DPS) could be automatically generated, this spreadsheet could be even more incredible for me than it already is.

Many thanks for your hard work on this thusfar, as well..

 

Raba_Storm

Heya, and thank you for this splendid tool.

Noticed a slight error with item [Violet Signet of the Master Assassin].

Spreadsheet shows stats +14agi , +28ap , +14crit
when correct stats are +28sta , +25hit , +56ap

 

Carlaena

OK I'm seeing something really odd (Or perhaps my previous understanding of stats was flawed)

If I enter in all my gear with a BM spec(41/20) steady rotation, an increment of 1agil gives me 0.67dps, 1crit gives me 0.61dps, 1ap gives me 0.34dps and 1hit gives me 0.58dps.

No problem there.

If I change it to a SV build (5/20/36) with max specials, an increment of 1agil gives me 1.33dps(?????), 1crit gives me 0.54dps, 1ap gives me 0.28dps and 1hit gives me 0.5dps.

Surely 1 agil for a survival hunter isn't twice as important as 1 agil for a beast master. It's coming up as being five times better than raw attack power, I expected closer to three times better.

Maybe I'm doing something wrong. I'll delete my sheet, redownload the latest, and try again.
Agil isn't this good for SV, right?

 

Hunterlin

I am not sure how you tested this. My numbers with my gear and talents (7/20/34) are :
1agi = 0.82 dps
1hit = 0.58 dps
1cr = 0.66 dps
1ap = 0.37 dps

Edit:
I did changed off hand to "Custom off hand", did put 1 to stat I wanted to test, 0 others.
I left my twohander(Legacy) equiped as is.
May be just retest numbers, most likely should be mistake by leaving some other value as 1.
1.33 could have been 1agi+1cr.

 

Carlaena

I entered one of my items in manually in the 'custom gear' tab, incremented each stat individually, and worked out the bonus recieved by subtraction.

 

Carlaena

Hmm I'm getting further odd behavior now. I just deleted my sheet and redownloaded the latest version off the first page in this thread.

I am using all the default settings as it comes, with all Cheeky's default gear.
I change his Worgon Claw Neck to 'custom' and enter its correct stats in the custom tab. I record the total dps then increment the agil bonus on the neck item and work out that 1 extra agil gives Cheeky 0.72dps.

I then simply change Cheeky's talents to 5/20/36 (instead of 41/20) and do the same. It says 1 agil as survival only gives him 0.73.

Something wrong here.

 

Hunterlin

1 agi : 0.72dps BM and 0.73 as surv.
That may be true. BM scale all stats with 20% haste, while survival have +15% agility and Expose Weakness.

 

Cheeky

Can you verify which version you are seeing this on (check Change Log tab). There was a problem with an un-sorted ring list several releases ago, but I think it should be fine now. I'm not seeing this problem on version 27.5 (my beta-test version.)

Cheeky of Havoc

 

Cheeky

This could be very well true. My shot rotation (the default in the spreadsheet) is just Auto:Steady, with no clipping. A BM build gives me a full 20% advantage from all damage increasing stats, including Agility. A Survival build works out to almost the same through Lightning Reflexes and Expose Weakness. You can do the tests with a 0/0/0 build for a true baseline.

And you can just hand add in stats in the blue section on the Gear tab. I think that would be easier than defining custom gear that mimics regular gear with just a subtle tweak.

Cheeky of Havoc

 

Carlaena

Thankyou for the quick reply.

I did some more tests. Downloaded the latest sheet and added my gear. Havn't touched any other settings. These are the two sets of results for simply 41/20 and 5/20/36 specs.

SV max special:
1agil - 0.74
1crit - 0.58
1ap - 0.35
1hit - 0.55

BM steady rotation:
1agil - 0.73
1crit - 0.62
1ap - 0.39
1hit - 0.60


Now, doing some simple math, bear with me....
For BM spec, 1AP gives us 52.423% of the dps of 1agil. (seems about right)
For SV spec, 1AP gives us 47.297% of the dps of 1agil. (seems very high considering the power of expose weakness and lightning reflexes)

Now, number crunch time...... (I'm using 40agil as it privides nice square numbers to work with)
For BM:
40agil = 40AP + 22crit
40*0.73 = 40*0.39 + 22*0.62
29.3 = 15.6 + 13.64
29.3 = 29.24
Tiny difference of 0.06 probably explained by some minor rounding in previous calculations.


For SV:
40agil = 46ap + 25.3crit (Lightning Reflexes) + 46AP*25% (expose weakness) *86.77%
40*0.74 = 46*0.35 + 25.3*0.58 + 11.5*.35*.8677
29.6 = 16.1 + 14.674 + 3.492
29.6 = 34.266
Significant gap here of 4.666dps for every 40 agil.


34.266/40 = 0.857dps

If my numbers are correct, which they may well not be, and if the spreadsheets weightings for AP and Crit are correct, 1agil should give me 0.857dps which is significantly higher than it currently does.


I just did these calculations on the fly in this text box, please correct me if I have made any errors.

 

◊ Lactose

The AP and the crit% gained from Agility influence each other.

What you're doing is basically, if you e.g. 20% crit, 1500 RAP:
Increased RAP (+40) with 20% crit translates into x DPS.
Increased crit (+1%) with 1500 RAP translates into y DPS.
Total increase = x + y
This is wrong.

The +40 RAP is also affected by the +1% crit.

Look, Lactose, we'd rather you didn't eradicate the whole human race.
- Sam & Max

 

Carlaena

Of course. My numbers are fairly crude. I did them using windows calculator while typing my reply, to try and display my assumption/concern. The cumulative influence of increased AP and Crit on each other are not taken into account by me. But if you increase both together (like we do when using agility), the ratio of AP to Crit in terms of DPS contribution will change very little. You're talking very small decimals here. I'm talking about a potential simulated loss of over 4dps per 40 agil.

There's every chance I've made a huge mistake here. Just trying to help out anyway I can..

 

Cheeky

I think a problem might be in the following:

With 40 more agility there is going to be a corresponding increase in the uptime of Expose Weakness. That that is going to influence the value of all previous Agility as well. (Which means the gap is probably bigger than first suggested.) But that determination of crit/RAP from Agility doesn't tell the whole story.

Here are the base statistics I see with a 5/20/36 build and my gear/rotation:
2024 Effective RAP
30.53% crit chance
135.94 RAP from expose weakness

Here is with +40 Agility
2073 RAP (+49 - 40 * 1.15 * 1.04 and there is a slight 1 RAP increase in the effect of [Hourglass of the Unraveller] from the additional crit %.)
31.68% crit ((40 * 1.15) / 40 = 1.15% crit)
147.92 RAP from Expose Weakness (91.03% uptime versus 90.03%, more Agility to work with as well.)

So we see a total of 1.15% crit (25.41 crit rating) and 49 RAP and 12 RAP. Factoring out Survival Instincts we get 25.4 crit rating and 57.5 RAP gain (ignoring Hourglass increase).

Base DPS - 1099.61
+40 Agility DPS - 1127.29 DPS
+25.4 crit rating, +58.5 RAP DPS - 1127.24 DPS

I think rounding errors can easily explain the .05 DPS difference.

Lactose's observation (I see it now - this post took me forever) are true. Those ratios of DPS per stat point are not fixed in stone, but are only accurate holding everything else in check. Adding 40 item budget is a significant increase, and changes the valuations a good bit. This fact is the reason why ideas like Agility Equivalence Points break down. They are only accurate for a brief moment in gearing. (This is not to make little of the massive work Arcazua has done to make them a sliding scale.) And the reason why I feel spreadsheets are the best way to evaluate talent/gear selection.

Does this make anything clearer? (I wouldn't be surprised if it didn't, not one of my most coherent posts.)

Cheeky of Havoc

 

Xenoborg

Would it be possible to model the effects of judgments on bosses and the average gains from them?

 

Cheeky

Yep. I'm hoping to do JoW. Any others you are interested in?

Cheeky of Havoc