Huh, if they leave the damage as such and not change anything with the mechanics of Steady Shot, doesn't it make the Legendary Bow a little OP, such that it won't be replaced until way,way into lvl80 Raiding?
I.e Three benefits so far:
-Free Arrows,
-Free Bag slot,
and
- Rough increase of 200dps over Bristleback/Timeless? (And still not factoring in the other stats)
This would almost prompt me to believe the first balancing change for WotLK would be for changing Steady Shot Mechanics to factor in Ammo DPS. (a la many nerfs to Thunderfury)
Haste doesn´t seem to have much of an impact on those 3:2 rotations. The average overall shot throughput is almost the same for all of them with faster attack speeds just clipping auto shot more than slow weapons. This favors slow weapons over fast ones for absolute damage.
Looking at your numbers, I'm assuming that "general shot delay" means average time per shot (regardless of type), and that this is what you're looking at to evaluate "average overall shot throughput"?
I do find it helpful to measure time per shot as you have done (or the inverse shots/time) rather than DPS results. I think a next logical step would be to compare your results with what you'd expect to achieve from legacy 1:1 and 1.5:1 rotations.
For example, taking the results of your quivered tests:
Test #2 - 3,0s Weapon, 15% quiverhaste, no SS talent - 2,61s actual attack speed.
Number of Auto Shots fired: 322
Number of Steay Shots fired: 677
Total number of shots fired: 999
Auto Shot delay (min/max/avrg): (2,625s/4,610s/3,187s)
Steady Shot delay (min/max/avrg): (1,203s/2,000s/1,541s)
General Shot delay (min/max/avrg): (0.312s/1.766s/1.043s)
1:1 Expected shot delay*: 1.304 *(i.e. average time per shot)
Improvement: 20%
1.5:1 Expected shot delay: 1.043
Improvement: 0%
Test #4 - 3,0s Weapon, 15% quiverhaste, 5/5 SS talent - 2,17s actual attack speed.
Number of Auto Shots fired: 331
Number of Steay Shots fired: 669
Total number of shots fired: 1000
Auto Shot delay (min/max/avrg): (2,000s/4,813s/3,119s)
Steady Shot delay (min/max/avrg): (1,094s/2,110s/1,537s)
General Shot delay (min/max/avrg): (0.265s/1.687s/1.031s)
1:1 Expected shot delay: 1.087
Improvement: 5%
Test #6 - 2,6s Weapon, 15% quiverhaste, no SS talent - 2,26s actual attack speed.
Number of Auto Shots fired: 331
Number of Steay Shots fired: 669
Total number of shots fired: 1000
Auto Shot delay (min/max/avrg): (2,922s/4,672s/3,216s)
Steady Shot delay (min/max/avrg): (1,063s/2,000s/1,545s)
General Shot delay (min/max/avrg): (0.344s/1.625s/1.044s)
1:1 Expected shot delay: 1.130
Improvement: 8%
Test #8 - 2,6s Weapon, 15% quiverhaste, 5/5 SS talent - 1,88s actual attack speed.
Number of Auto Shots fired: 405
Number of Steay Shots fired: 594
Total number of shots fired: 999
Auto Shot delay (min/max/avrg): (0,078s/4,625s/2,275s)
Steady Shot delay (min/max/avrg): (1,031s/2,219s/1,541s)
General Shot delay (min/max/avrg): (0.031s/2.188s/0.919s)
1:1 Expected shot delay: 0.942
Improvement: 2%
The blue numbers are the average shot times (or "delay" as you've called it) that I'm using to evaluate improvement over expected legacy rotation shot times.
So, if I understand your results correctly, of the four quivered tests, the best improvement you achieved in terms shots/time (or time/shot) was actually not with the slower bow, but in Test 6 (2.6 speed bow, no Serpent's Swiftness), for which you saw a reduced average time per shot of about 8%.
Last edited by Stinkerbelle : 02/11/08 at 11:02 PM.
First of all - you´re right I confused the 3:2 rotation with a 2:1 rotation actually. 3:2 meaning Auto - Steady - Steady.
That beeing said there seems to be a general uncertainty about those terms, so I guess it´d be a good idea to clarify them. To my understanding they´re used as follows:
1:1 = Auto - Steady (steady may be replaced with either multi or arcane, there´s only one special per auto though)
1:1.5 = Auto - Steady - Auto - Steady - Special (special is either multi or arcane)
2:3 = Auto - Steady - Auto - Steady - Steady (actually the same as 1:1.5 but no specials but steady are beeing use)
1:2 = Auto - Steady - Steady (kind of uncommon rotation I´ve never seen theorycrafted in depth about anywhere on these boards, but the most common rotation on my macrotests)
To answer your questions Stinkerbelle: delay is the time between two shots. Steady shot delay is the delay between two steady shots whereas general shot delay is the delay between any two shots following on each other so the latter is the one determing the absolute shot throughput. Assuming all shots would do roughly the same damage the highest shot throughput would also yield the best dps result. I think I´m gonna do a few tests with a standard castsequence macro and see how it compares.
Yeah, like right now I have enough haste with a 3.0 weapon to spam the macro pretty much, under most conditions, and produce a 2:3 rotation. Your tests just didn't have that amount of haste, I guess. A 2.9 weapon + BM spec should have the right speed, it's around 2.08 - 2.1 to be able to spam the macro to produce a 2:3 rotation.
And yes you can do a 2:3 rotation without any macro or without any special conditions, it's just harder to time everything 100% perfect and whatnot. So having a bit of haste + the 3.0 bows seems the best way to go, which won't be a problem at all after Sunwell's out, seeing as how there's only like 3 pieces of gear without haste so far.
Anyway, yes, all the spreadsheet would have to do for MOST weapon speeds is reduce the GCD of a steady shot if the previous shot was Auto Shot by the time between the end of the previous shot and the auto shot shooting, up to a maximum of .5 seconds, and also remove the latency from affecting steady shot. From there you can just put in a button that does the "2:3" rotation (Auto-Steady-Auto-Steady-Steady) and it would be modeled for MOST situations, aside from the jitter we're seeing in auto-shot cast time.
Anyway I'm tired and this got a little longer than I wanted but yeah, that's basically what's going on with this rotation.
Since I forgot to mail myself my working copy of the spreadsheet form work to home last night I didn't get this released. If I'm not a complete idiot today too it'll get done.
The shoulder enchants have a typo - Inscription of Vengence/Greater Inscription of Vengence should be spelled Vengeance.
I'll get those added/fixed.
Originally Posted by Rokh
Anyway, yes, all the spreadsheet would have to do for MOST weapon speeds is reduce the GCD of a steady shot if the previous shot was Auto Shot by the time between the end of the previous shot and the auto shot shooting, up to a maximum of .5 seconds, and also remove the latency from affecting steady shot. From there you can just put in a button that does the "2:3" rotation (Auto-Steady-Auto-Steady-Steady) and it would be modeled for MOST situations, aside from the jitter we're seeing in auto-shot cast time.
That's pretty much exactly what I have done. My first pass on the code was to intelligently pick Auto or Steady based on what the relative cooldowns were and prioritize Steady if it was at all available. That lead to a lot of Auto, Steady, Steady, Auto, Steady, Steady rotations, which isn't what we want.
I'll just force the Auto, Steady, Steady, Auto, Steady pattern now. My initial work shows it as being even more of a mana drain than a 1:1, Priority rotation using max rank Arcane and Multi. But that fits with what people are seeing in game.
Do we need the 3:2 rotation only for unhasted rotations? Or do people envision using it for Quick Shots and DST-based rotations too?
Do we need the 3:2 rotation only for unhasted rotations? Or do people envision using it for Quick Shots and DST-based rotations too?
As far as I experienced, the new macro under haste effects produces 1:1 rotation, but I use it anyway, it's more consistent this way, at least for me (I can focus on other things), so if it isn't much extra work, I would very much appreciate it for hasted rotations too.
As far as I experienced, the new macro under haste effects produces 1:1 rotation, but I use it anyway, it's more consistent this way, at least for me (I can focus on other things), so if it isn't much extra work, I would very much appreciate it for hasted rotations too.
To me that sounds like you want a forced 1:1 rotation if there are some hastes up (Quick Shots, Dragonspine Trophy), and a forced 2:3 rotation otherwise.
Look, Lactose, we'd rather you didn't eradicate the whole human race.
- Sam & Max
To me that sounds like you want a forced 1:1 rotation if there are some hastes up (Quick Shots, Dragonspine Trophy), and a forced 2:3 rotation otherwise.
I added the 3:2 for Quick Shots, but using my gear (no +haste) and a [Serpent Spine Longbow] I get the following unbuffed:
Quick Shots 1:1 - 865.03 DPS, 52.37 MPS
Quick Shots 3:2 - 836.66 DPS, 61.07 MPS
As extra information here is what the spreadsheet gives me unhasted:
1:1, Auto:Steady - 752.34 DPS, 45.54 MPS
1:1, Priority - 794.88 DPS, 74.35 MPS
1:1.X, Arcane - 870.17 DPS, 73.14 MPS
3:2 - 837.39 DPS, 61.12 MPS
Test #2 - 3,0s Weapon, 15% quiverhaste, no SS talent - 2,61s actual attack speed.
Number of Auto Shots fired: 322
Number of Steay Shots fired: 677
Total number of shots fired: 999
Auto Shot delay (min/max/avrg): (2,625s/4,610s/3,187s)
Steady Shot delay (min/max/avrg): (1,203s/2,000s/1,541s)
General Shot delay (min/max/avrg): (0.312s/1.766s/1.043s)
Test #8 - 2,6s Weapon, 15% quiverhaste, 5/5 SS talent - 1,88s actual attack speed.
Number of Auto Shots fired: 405
Number of Steay Shots fired: 594
Total number of shots fired: 999
Auto Shot delay (min/max/avrg): (0,078s/4,625s/2,275s)
Steady Shot delay (min/max/avrg): (1,031s/2,219s/1,541s)
General Shot delay (min/max/avrg): (0.031s/2.188s/0.919s)
A few conclusions that jump to my mind:
- Five of the eight test series produced an almost perfect 3:2 rotation and a near perfect 1,5s average steady delay too. Depending on haste Auto shot is clipped between about 0,4s and 1,0s on those rotations though.
- Haste doesn´t seem to have much of an impact on those 3:2 rotations. The average overall shot throughput is almost the same for all of them with faster attack speeds just clipping auto shot more than slow weapons. This favors slow weapons over fast ones for absolute damage.
The ratio of steady to auto was 2:1 for all your tests that had some haste, except for the extreme case where you went BM with a 2.6 speed gun. There, you actually got 3:2. Not surprisingly, you did get more shots (10%).
It's cute that this works and automatically adjusts for haste procs (going from 2:1 to 3:2 to 1:1 as the hastes stack). But I'd be shocked if steady-multi-auto and steady-arcane-auto didn't outperform steady-steady-auto at most weapon speeds (although, of course, you can't start your next steady as soon, so the earlier autoshot following an arcane isn't as great as you'd think).
Under Quickshots / DST you'll want to drop to 1:1, I'm almost sure. You'll be clipping to much to squeeze in a second steady shot anywhere.
Also Cheeky, yeah, 1:1.x with I'd think Arcane and Multi would be better than a pure 2:3 rotation, shouldn't be that much more mana, just ALOT harder to do and time right.
Version 43 released - Buff Profiles! 3:2 rotations! Sunwell Loot!!!!
- Change Band of the Eternal Champion proc duration to 10 seconds.
- Corrected some bugs in the profiles matrix. Everything should display accurately now.
- Corrected Draenei base Intelligence to 78 (from 82.)
- Corrected some item stats (Embrace of the Twisting Nether, Bow-Stitched Leggings)
- Fixed a bug in Shoulder socket bonuses that was sometimes showing bonuses for gear that did not have sockets.
- Corrected some item name spellings (Ancient Draenei War Talisman, Wicked Flame Spessarite, Greater Inscription of Vengeance)
- Remodeled Mark of Conquest with a 17 second internal cooldown and 13% chance to proc. This is based on data collected by Xeno of Suramar.
- If you select Thor'idal, the Stars' Fury as a ranged weapon the ammo is defaulted to None. (This is not applicable for OO versions.)
- Added new gear (Thor'idal, the Stars' Fury, Blackened Naruu Sliver, Apolyon, the Soul-render, Fang of Kalecgos, Muramasa, Crus of the Apocalypse, Shiv of Exsanguination, Hard Khorium Choker, Shoulderpads of the Silvermoon Retainer, Breeching Comet, Edge of Opression, Sunrage Shoulderpads, Hauberk of the Warbringer, Bladed Chaos Tunic, Leggings of the Immortal Night, Shoulderpads of Vehemence, Duplicitous Guise, Truestrike Crossbow, Bombardier's Blade, The Sunbreaker, Shattered Sun Pendant of Might, Gronnstalker's Belt, Gronnstalker's Bracers, Gronnstalker's Boots, Fletcher's Gloves of the Phoenix, Embrace of the Phoenix, Surestrike Goggles v3.0, Gylph of the Gladiator, Shadowed Gauntlets of Paroxysm, Sunrage Shoulderpads, Carapace of Sun and Shadow, Hard Khorium Band, Mounting Vengeance, Stalker's Legguards, Tunic of the Ranger Lord).
- Provide for three Buff Profiles. These are Loaded/Saved on the 'Buffs' tab, the names are controlled on 'Settings and Results' and they are Imported/Exported properly.
- Users can select from 3 types of shot rotations - Hand-Weaving, Castsequence, and Spam. These refer to the common methods of timing by hand, or using some of the various macros available.
- Using Castsequence macros results in latency being added to the start of every shot cast to account for server<->client communication.
- Using either Hand-Weaving or Spam macros results in latency being a factor when computing GCD based on whether or not the previous shot was an Auto Shot. This means the Shot Rotation matrix will now try and mimic the behavior seen of the GCD being client-only.
- Added a button to build the Auto, Steady, Steady, Auto, Steady (usually referred to as "3:2") shot rotation automatically.
Am I right in assuming that v 42 and back use v 43's 'Castsequence' logic for building shot rotations?
Making my shot rotations in v 43, and I notice that a hand-weaved or Spam 1:1.X (Multi & Arcane) rotation results in a ~80 DPS gain over Castsequence, and thereby a ~20 dps gain over 1:1 (Prio) for my cookie-cutter BM + Wolfslayer setup.
Does this seem wrong to anyone else?
Also possibly related, I notice that theres not a single Multishot in my Hand-weaved/Spam 1:1.X rotation, even though I have selected Multi (Yes) for the rotation. Multi-shot does however appear in the rotation if I use the Castsequence setting.
Last edited by Opostrophe : 02/13/08 at 9:07 AM.
Reason: clarity
Getting a pop-up that Battlemaster's Cruelty is not a supported Trinket. This was happening in ver 42 and now ver 43 (not sure about earlier versions).
Maybe check the space between "Battlemaster's" and "Cruelty". Looks like there might be an extra space?
Thanks again cheeky for your hard work!
I achieved the best theoretical results with the 1.1.x rotation (x=arcane), + 1.1.x rotation (x=arcane) under quickshots, but only when "spammed" oder "handweaved". Since I got my SP garanteed, mana is not the limiting factor here.
Is there any macro out there that can actualy !spam! an auto, steady, arcane rotation like its mentioned in the spreadsheet?
Can't test that right now, but looks reasonable to me atm. If I get this right it will do the 3:2 rotation until the next arcane shot is up. The arcane here fills the gap where the double steady would appear in the standard spammed 3:2 rotation. The spreadsheed tells me it will be:
[auto, steady, auto, steady, auto, steady+arcane,] [auto, steady, auto, steady, auto, steady+arcane,]
The weird thing is that the next steady after the arcane is started 1s after the last arcane. I thought arcane triggers a 1,5s GCD....
... now I'm kind of confused.....
(can be seen in the shot rotation matrix in the wall of numbers everyone ignores.)
I didn't ignore your beautifull wall cheeky
Last edited by Seven : 02/13/08 at 11:12 AM.
Reason: layout improved
Thank you for creating, and maintaining, this incredible tool for the Hunter community.
I downloaded the newest version, and love the Buff Profiles. However, when attempting to switch profiles via the drop down I get a cell protection error.
Although, seeing this addition to the spreadsheet made me wonder...would it be possible to make selectable Talent profiles also?
Am I right in assuming that v 42 and back use v 43's 'Castsequence' logic for building shot rotations?
Making my shot rotations in v 43, and I notice that a hand-weaved or Spam 1:1.X (Multi & Arcane) rotation results in a ~80 DPS gain over Castsequence, and thereby a ~20 dps gain over 1:1 (Prio) for my cookie-cutter BM + Wolfslayer setup.
Does this seem wrong to anyone else?
Also possibly related, I notice that theres not a single Multishot in my Hand-weaved/Spam 1:1.X rotation, even though I have selected Multi (Yes) for the rotation. Multi-shot does however appear in the rotation if I use the Castsequence setting.
Yes, the rotations built in v42- are the same as Castsequence macros in v43. I needed a way to distinguish when the Hunter would have to wait for server confirmation to cast the next step and also to allow for the spam and handwoven rotations where you can recover the GCD during Auto Shot's cast. This was the best I was able to come up with.
Those types of gains are what have been seen in the testing done. I know that moving from a hand-timed rotation to the 3:2 macro was a very slight upgrade for me, but others who went from the same rotation but using a /castsequence macro saw huge gains with the 3:2 macro.
The logic of the 1:1.X rotation is to pick the best non-Steady special available based on cooldowns. If both Arcane and Multi are available and Arcane does more damage that should get picked. Try scaling down your rank of Arcane to lower it's damage (or decrease target armor to pump up Multi's damage) and see how that affects results. Without knowing the timing differences in your setup in picking Castsequence versus Hand-timed I can't say why there is a difference, but I'd check the GCD behavior and times each shot is available (can be seen in the shot rotation matrix in the wall of numbers everyone ignores.)
The logic of the 1:1.X rotation is to pick the best non-Steady special available based on cooldowns. If both Arcane and Multi are available and Arcane does more damage that should get picked. Try scaling down your rank of Arcane to lower it's damage (or decrease target armor to pump up Multi's damage) and see how that affects results.
But surely multi is available when arcane is still on cooldown... What I'm saying is that there isn't a single multi-shot in all 50 lines. Even stranger is that this is only when I have selected 'hand-weaved' or 'Spam'; Multi-shots are there when I choose 'Castsequence'. Why would a timing difference make multi-shot a more or less attractive shot to use?
Originally Posted by Cheeky
Without knowing the timing differences in your setup in picking Castsequence versus Hand-timed I can't say why there is a difference, but I'd check the GCD behavior and times each shot is available (can be seen in the shot rotation matrix in the wall of numbers everyone ignores.)
I'll start looking there and see if I can figure something out.
P.S. Thanks so much for your work on the spreadsheet and elsewhere researching hunter shot mechanics! Your efforts are an invaluable resource for all serious raiding hunters.
OK....I have ruminated over this a while before posting. Using the current version of the spreadsheet (43), I appear to gain considerable DPS specing 2/5 Mortal shots and 5/5 imp Arcane shot. I would be using a 1:1.5 ratio. Help!
The [Ancient Sin'dorei Longbow] was renamed [Ancient Amani Longbow] in a recent patch. Noticed it when the spreadsheet's Load From Armory feature told me my character was using a weapon that didn't exist.
OK....I have ruminated over this a while before posting. Using the current version of the spreadsheet (43), I appear to gain considerable DPS specing 2/5 Mortal shots and 5/5 imp Arcane shot. I would be using a 1:1.5 ratio. Help!
I could see that being true if you had a pretty low crit rate, but without knowing all the settings you selected I couldn't say for sure if it was a bug, or the truth.
Take a look around the Calculations tab for shot damages and the Shot Rotation for shot frequency. If you find anything that just looks off, post the details here and we can figure out if I've fucked up someplace in the calculations. (Bonus points if you find the bug and propose a solution!)
02/11/08, 10:52 PM
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