Hunter Spreadsheets -- In development - Page 6

Cheeky · 04/24/07, 6:00 PM

Originally Posted by Jezele

Thanks for the reply, Lactose, just didn't want to be missing out!

Cheeky: I've been playing around with your spreadsheet, but I've run across a strange phenomenon and I'm not sure whether it's "true," or simply an artifact and/or error (whether mine or the spreadsheet's). I selected a full set of tier 2 gear, full MM talents (including IAotH), and a GM bow. I used your prioritization for shot rotation (multi>steady), and came up with a hunter-only DPS of 841.28. I then started to play around with alternate bows (recalculating the shot rotation each time), but discovered that the GM bow gave me a higher DPS than every other ranged weapon on your list (again, hunter DPS only - it was even further ahead when you considered pet DPS, probably due to GftT).

I figured that faster bows would have a slight edge due to the increased IAotH proc, but there's something not quite right when a 55.8 DPS/1.8 speed bow calculates a higher DPS output then the 73.8 DPS/2.8 gladiator crossbow. I ran these numbers without IAotH and obtained similar results, which makes me think that there's something fishy about the calculations somewhere. Or are faster bows really that much better?

(Edit: If I only use autoshot and/or multishot, the values look more reasonable. I think the reason the GM/HW bow gives such a high DPS output is that you're basically able to fit in a steady shot between each autoshot without any "wasted" time. This means less longevity, I'm guessing, but higher DPS output during that time since the ratio of steady shot damage/autoshot damage is much higher.)

The Shot Rotation has a couple of modeling weak points, and your specific comparisons hit them pretty squarely.

1) There is no allowance for lag. I have had a request for this, and I am going to allow users in the next version to specify a delay to be added to all triggerable cast start times. Putting 0.1 or 0.2 seconds in for that should lower the HW bow DPS by quite a bit.

2) I model IAotH by averaging out the haste gains into a static effect. What this does is put each autoshot cooldown and Steady Shot cast time into a "middle ground" that is not achievable in the game. You are either not in Quick Shots, in which case everything is slower; or you are, and things are much quicker (and the HW bow clips every auto shot, nullifying the benefit entirely.)

Your specific example looks real good because you have a 0 second reaction time, and the averaged Autoshot cycle time for the HW is 1.45 seconds. But Steady Shot cast time is averaged to 1.21 seconds. In effect the HW bow is clipping each autoshot by 1.21 - (1.45 - 0.5) = .17 seconds. If you have even a slight lag/reaction time this is going to be much worse, and the bow looks as crappy at level 70 as it really is.

To really see what the normal cast times are I would recommend turning off Hawk as an aspect on the Shot Rotation and adding 155 RAP to the Gear page's hand adjustment field to get a better idea of the shot times. This will turn off the IAotH effects without costing you the RAP.

Jezele · 04/24/07, 8:34 PM

Turning off IAotH won't change the relative comparisons since the haste effect modifies both the autoshot and steady shot times. Being able to factor in lag time (or simply modifying the weapon/shot speeds by a small amount) would certainly help produce more "real world" results. One temporary workaround would be to find a slightly slower speed weapon, calculate the shot rotation, then switch back to the actual weapon, so I may give that a shot to see what sort of values that gives me.

Thanks for the response and I look forward to further tweaks.

Cheeky · 04/24/07, 8:40 PM

Originally Posted by Jezele

Turning off IAotH won't change the relative comparisons since the haste effect modifies both the autoshot and steady shot times. Being able to factor in lag time (or simply modifying the weapon/shot speeds by a small amount) would certainly help produce more "real world" results. One temporary workaround would be to find a slightly slower speed weapon, calculate the shot rotation, then switch back to the actual weapon, so I may give that a shot to see what sort of values that gives me.

Thanks for the response and I look forward to further tweaks.

Improved Aspect of the Hawk scales based on weapon speed. A faster bow gets more benefit from it than a slower bow. It does not even out between a 3.2s Gladiator's and a 1.6s High Warlord's Recurve.

Charky · 04/28/07, 4:00 AM

For the past couple weeks I've been working on developing my own spreadsheet, mostly for my own enjoyment and use. I take all the stats on an item and convert them to their equivalent value in Attack Power. I don't, however, use a static value for each stat, but I calculate it using partial derivatives of the damage formulae. When I had started working on it, I didn't see a spreadsheet that came at it from this angle.

The spreadsheet itself is similar to Lactose's in that you manually enter your stats and the stats for the items you want to compare, however I also provide a section for you to input your own shot rotation (it must repeat), as it can play a role in the relative value of a stat. In the talents section, it is currently set for the proposed talents in 2.1.

Anyhow, just thought I'd share.

http://www.teamcaustic.com/uploads-b...%20Calc100.xls

I sincerely apologize if this post is incoherent. I'm more than a little tired.

helias126 · 04/28/07, 8:26 PM

Cheeky,

1) There is no allowance for lag. I have had a request for this, and I am going to allow users in the next version to specify a delay to be added to all triggerable cast start times. Putting 0.1 or 0.2 seconds in for that should lower the HW bow DPS by quite a bit.

Isnt't it true that if u mash the Steady shot.auto shot macro you have 0 DPS loss even if your latency is 400 ms?
That means that Consortium blaster and all other fast weapons > everything in game atm?
Or latency can affect the button mashing macro too?
I own Sunfury and Gladiators btw but i am after the Rifle from Doomwalker for PvE , 41/20/0 spec.

Cheeky · 04/28/07, 8:46 PM

Originally Posted by helias126

Isnt't it true that if u mash the Steady shot.auto shot macro you have 0 DPS loss even if your latency is 400 ms?
That means that Consortium blaster and all other fast weapons > everything in game atm?
Or latency can affect the button mashing macro too?
I own Sunfury and Gladiators btw but i am after the Rifle from Doomwalker for PvE , 41/20/0 spec.

Lag is irrespective of the macro. Just because you mash it continuously and get it to trigger as soon as the client allows you to does not mean the server gets it at the same time. If it takes 200 ms for the client to communicate to the server you see a 200 ms delay in whatever you do.

This is why for high-latency environments it is better to hand-cast your shots and time the Steady Shot so you press the key before the autoshot timer has expired. The latency from your client to the sever allows the server time to complete the effects of the autoshot cast and then processes your Steady cast immediately. Of course, if you go too early you just interrupt the auto and get the clobbered auto shots we're all such big fans of.

I believe latency will always punish faster weapons more than slower weapons. Unless you happen to be playing on the same LAN as the sever.

helias126 · 04/29/07, 4:11 AM

Thanks for the answer mate.
Can't wait for the next version of your calculator with the latency included

Also please include Barel-Blade Longrifle on it!
Also missing Assasins fire opal in the gems.

Apteryx · 04/30/07, 1:59 AM

Cheeky,

Just started fiddling with your spreadsheet, and I have to thank you for the time you've put into it so far.

One thing I did note however, is that version 11 is missing the pants I am currently wearing, the Chimaerascale legguards of the Bandit - http://www.wowhead.com/?item=31210

They are one of the most commonly dropped random enchant blues from Nuramoc, and aren't half bad. I'd appreciate it if you included them in further releases

vorda · 04/30/07, 8:35 AM

I hope I'm not asking too much with this:

We have some really really stubborn hunters. I've been getting a debate started about their dps (some use AoTV and AS+MS spam.. :'( constantly clipping autoshots aswell) and already posted some tips about steadyshot/auto macro and the spreadsheet.

Still, I dont think the information I gave them was enough. Would it be possible to set up a small list of tips ('best practices: hunter dps' if you must :p )? If they dont believe that what you say is true, I'll just scan every hunter topic on this forum -again- and slap them with math.

Much appreciated

ps: I've used the search function and has read most of the latest hunter topics, but my knowledge about hunters is far from sufficient to come up with this kind of 'small list'.

Osse · 04/30/07, 8:39 AM

Vorda I believe it's time to get new hunters if they're so arrogant. Had two hunters in guild in vanilla wow that just didnt want to learn anything so they got kicked eventually.

vorda · 04/30/07, 8:59 AM

Originally Posted by Osse

Vorda I believe it's time to get new hunters if they're so arrogant. Had two hunters in guild in vanilla wow that just didnt want to learn anything so they got kicked eventually.

Nah, they'd be willing if pushed hard enough, it just hurts me to see some of them spam AS+MS highest rank with AoTV and no pot usage..
(I'm running WWS on all our dps from now on :p )

Just need some baselines.. Like: Dont even bother using AS/MS with a 2.6 or faster (pre quiver) bow. (if this is even correct?)

Glaurong · 04/30/07, 10:05 AM

I'd say minimum you would want them to:

1) Get LittleTrouble or zHuntermod. Something to give them an auto shot cast bar.

2) Use a steady shot in between each auto shot. If they resist getting an auto shot cast bar, have them use the following macro. They can just mash it to the same effect.

/castsequence Auto Shot, Steady Shot

3) Use their pet on every fight, there are very few fights where it should be just chilling next to them.

4) Use Aspect of the Hawk and make sure they have the Improved Aspect of the Hawk talent.

They wont be doing top tier DPS but its better than what you describe and won't take a lot of effort.

The Iron Colonel · 04/30/07, 11:22 AM

Cheeky:
I've been toying around with your spreadsheet a bit, and I was wondering if there's a way to access the gear lists. While I CAN use the hand adjustment, it's not the most convenient way to do things. If possible, can you give users more clear access to the gear lists? There are a number of items I'd like to add, but it's unclear to me how to even access the list. Along the same lines, is it possible for users to help update the gear library to keep in up to date while alleviating some of the work for you? If not, I understand. Thanks for the work you've already done.

Jezele · 04/30/07, 1:06 PM

Originally Posted by The Iron Colonel

If possible, can you give users more clear access to the gear lists?

I think this would be a great idea as well. I realize that it'd create a slew of new tabs (since based on your calculations, you have a separate tab for each gear slot), but I think the additional customization would be useful.

A couple of other potential improvements (other than the latency issue that I know you're already working on) would be the addition of standard buffs (including kings, which requires a bit more hardcoding) and factoring in glancing blows/dodges/parries for pet DPS. A method of direct gear comparison might also be helpful as well (i.e. look at the change in DPS if swapping one piece of gear for another).

Cheeky · 04/30/07, 1:35 PM

Originally Posted by Jezele

I think this would be a great idea as well. I realize that it'd create a slew of new tabs (since based on your calculations, you have a separate tab for each gear slot), but I think the additional customization would be useful.

A couple of other potential improvements (other than the latency issue that I know you're already working on) would be the addition of standard buffs (including kings, which requires a bit more hardcoding) and factoring in glancing blows/dodges/parries for pet DPS. A method of direct gear comparison might also be helpful as well (i.e. look at the change in DPS if swapping one piece of gear for another).

I have been hesitant to open up the gearing sections for a bunch of reasons. The largest of these are selfishness. If I let anyone go ahead and fix the mistakes and ommisions I'll never learn about them. Right now I get a few messages a week of things that are missing or wrong. I can then fix/add those changes and re-release. To me everyone wins that way. (And I am an incredible control freak, and like protecting the mind-numbing hours it took to input and maintain that data.)

There was a movement a while a go to standardize the gear lists in the various spreadsheets. Does anyone know what happened to that effort?

Here is a preview of the features already implemented for version 12. I am holding off on releasing it because it has all the 2.1 changes in it.
- Corrected bug in Expose Weakness. Updated rates to 2.1 talents
- Added Combra Reflexes
- Modeled Kill Command DPS. See thread on TKASomething for explanation of the math.
- Modeled new Hunter's Mark. (currently as having to be reapplied, but will just assume 440 RAP with changes on PTR.)
- Added armor mitigation to pet's attacks.
- Added in Gronnstalker Armor for shits and giggles.
- Added Raid Buffs. Blessings/elixirs/flasks/etc. Enforce 2 Elixirs or 1 flask rule. R2.1 flask stats, and added in buffs for pets.
- Added in Helath/Mana enchants for chest
- Added Dodge and Glancing Blow calculations to pet's DPS.
- Changed Survival Instincts to be as it is in 2.1 (Better per point than Master Marksman in a lower part of the tree...)
- All pet data sheets have been hidden to reduce clutter.
- Calculations for Romulo's Poison Vial have been added. This just computes DPS gain right now, but is not factored into DPS listed for the Hunter.

I guess there are quite a few changes. Now would be a good time to ask for new stuff.