Hunter Spreadsheets -- In development - Page 7

helias126 · 04/30/07, 2:10 PM

Originally Posted by Cheeky

I have been hesitant to open up the gearing sections for a bunch of reasons. The largest of these are selfishness. If I let anyone go ahead and fix the mistakes and ommisions I'll never learn about them. Right now I get a few messages a week of things that are missing or wrong. I can then fix/add those changes and re-release. To me everyone wins that way. (And I am an incredible control freak, and like protecting the mind-numbing hours it took to input and maintain that data.)

There was a movement a while a go to standardize the gear lists in the various spreadsheets. Does anyone know what happened to that effort?

Here is a preview of the features already implemented for version 12. I am holding off on releasing it because it has all the 2.1 changes in it.
- Corrected bug in Expose Weakness. Updated rates to 2.1 talents
- Added Combra Reflexes
- Modeled Kill Command DPS. See thread on TKASomething for explanation of the math.
- Modeled new Hunter's Mark. (currently as having to be reapplied, but will just assume 440 RAP with changes on PTR.)
- Added armor mitigation to pet's attacks.
- Added in Gronnstalker Armor for shits and giggles.
- Added Raid Buffs. Blessings/elixirs/flasks/etc. Enforce 2 Elixirs or 1 flask rule. R2.1 flask stats, and added in buffs for pets.
- Added in Helath/Mana enchants for chest
- Added Dodge and Glancing Blow calculations to pet's DPS.
- Changed Survival Instincts to be as it is in 2.1 (Better per point than Master Marksman in a lower part of the tree...)
- All pet data sheets have been hidden to reduce clutter.
- Calculations for Romulo's Poison Vial have been added. This just computes DPS gain right now, but is not factored into DPS listed for the Hunter.

I guess there are quite a few changes. Now would be a good time to ask for new stuff.

<3 <3
Kudos for all the great work mate, thanks a lot

The Iron Colonel · 04/30/07, 2:38 PM

I like the new change so far (although I haven't had a chance to review the TKAsomething thread on kill command yet, but I'm sure the model they used is valid, based on reputation alone). Couple questions:

1) Have you considered adding a "pet raid buff" section? When I'm raiding I annoy the shit out of our druids priests and paladins to buff my pet, which helps his DPS (most notably Blessing of Might and Battle Shout).

2) I understand your reasons for not opening access to gear lists. I like that they are currently hidden because it does tidy things up a bit. I'll put together a list of notable items not in the list for you to add.

3) Have you modeled haste/AP procs? I am not seeing any information regarding Dragonspine or Hourglass (the two I'm currently looking at). Is this a matter of not having a valid model or simply not being implemented?

4) In a different thread we discussed some pet calculation issues, notably incorrectly calculating damage per focus for gore and failing to account for player crit rate/unleashed rage (apparently? not sure what the issue is here). Have these issues been addressed?

I'll add more suggestions/comments as they occur to me. Thanks for all the effort you've put into the spreadsheet.

Jezele · 04/30/07, 2:40 PM

Originally Posted by Cheeky

I have been hesitant to open up the gearing sections for a bunch of reasons.

Can't say I blame you. A possible compromise would be to add a tab for the addition of a limited number of new items (for example, a block of 3-5 for each gear slot that would be reflected on each of your hidden tabs). This would prevent mucking with your hard work while still allowing atypical (green resist pieces, for example) or theoretical items to be compared.

version 12

Wow, lots of nice additions! You didn't include latency in your list, which is the change I'm most interested in, but I think you've already said that it'll be included in your next version. (Sidenote, did you model it by adding latency to the cast time of every non-autoshot?)

When hiding tabs, you might also consider hiding the Race and Level tabs as well (Level could be combined with the Calculations page if you wanted it visible).

Oh, and one possible error: Ravager is listed as not having bite, when Petopia says it's a trainable skill. I haven't trained one myself, so not sure which is accurate. Also, Gore will need the 1.5x damage modifier.

Thanks again for all your effort, this really is a quality piece of work!

Originally Posted by The Iron Colonel

Have you considered adding a "pet raid buff" section?

Good catch! Also, I'm not sure if you're set up for including Kings as one of your raid buffs, but this is a pretty common one that'd be helpful to have included (especially since it effects so many variables).

Cheeky · 04/30/07, 4:35 PM

Originally Posted by The Iron Colonel

I like the new change so far (although I haven't had a chance to review the TKAsomething thread on kill command yet, but I'm sure the model they used is valid, based on reputation alone). Couple questions:

1) Have you considered adding a "pet raid buff" section? When I'm raiding I annoy the shit out of our druids priests and paladins to buff my pet, which helps his DPS (most notably Blessing of Might and Battle Shout).

2) I understand your reasons for not opening access to gear lists. I like that they are currently hidden because it does tidy things up a bit. I'll put together a list of notable items not in the list for you to add.

3) Have you modeled haste/AP procs? I am not seeing any information regarding Dragonspine or Hourglass (the two I'm currently looking at). Is this a matter of not having a valid model or simply not being implemented?

4) In a different thread we discussed some pet calculation issues, notably incorrectly calculating damage per focus for gore and failing to account for player crit rate/unleashed rage (apparently? not sure what the issue is here). Have these issues been addressed?

I'll add more suggestions/comments as they occur to me. Thanks for all the effort you've put into the spreadsheet.

1) Pet Buffs are there. I had a specific request from someone for Battleshout. I'm sure I've missed some, but I tend to get feedback to that rather quickly.

3) I have no clue how to model the Hourglass. It's difficult with a hidden cooldown. If you can get me reliable numbers for the cooldown duration, and rate of proc afterwards (wither proc per minute or stright chance on crit) I'll give it a go. I have a whole infrastructure in place for haste effects, but I have little rate information on the Dragonspine Throphy too.

4) I fixed gore, that was pretty easy. I must have missed issues with Unleashed Rage. Player Crit only comes into play for Go For the Throat and Kill Command, as far as I can figure it out. Can you explain what you thing is wrong/missing?

Originally Posted by Jezele

Can't say I blame you. A possible compromise would be to add a tab for the addition of a limited number of new items (for example, a block of 3-5 for each gear slot that would be reflected on each of your hidden tabs). This would prevent mucking with your hard work while still allowing atypical (green resist pieces, for example) or theoretical items to be compared.

I am teaching myself Excel as I do this, this being my first real spreadsheet of any kind besides simple math. I'm not sure how I can specify a Validation list to incorporate columns among multiple sheets. It's something I can look into though.

Originally Posted by Jezele

Wow, lots of nice additions! You didn't include latency in your list, which is the change I'm most interested in, but I think you've already said that it'll be included in your next version. (Sidenote, did you model it by adding latency to the cast time of every non-autoshot?)

Yeah, it's there. Right now it increases the start time of every non-autoshot, exactly like you figured. I have to also add it to Kill COmmand too, but that would be a very small difference maker.

Originally Posted by Jezele

When hiding tabs, you might also consider hiding the Race and Level tabs as well (Level could be combined with the Calculations page if you wanted it visible).

Oh, and one possible error: Ravager is listed as not having bite, when Petopia says it's a trainable skill. I haven't trained one myself, so not sure which is accurate. Also, Gore will need the 1.5x damage modifier.

Thanks again for all your effort, this really is a quality piece of work!

Fixed gore. I'll check into Ravager. Without Bite it is a lesser DPS pet than Wind Serpent or Cat I'd assume. Bite is very efficient in converting Focus to damage.

Originally Posted by Jezele

Good catch! Also, I'm not sure if you're set up for including Kings as one of your raid buffs, but this is a pretty common one that'd be helpful to have included (especially since it effects so many variables).

I actually separate out additive vs. multiplicitive (is that a word?) buffs and talents, and combine them separately. This was the only simple way I could figure out to account for Kings.

Jezele · 04/30/07, 5:04 PM

Originally Posted by Cheeky

I am teaching myself Excel as I do this, this being my first real spreadsheet of any kind besides simple math. I'm not sure how I can specify a Validation list to incorporate columns among multiple sheets. It's something I can look into though.

I haven't worked much with drop-down lists myself, but something that might work is to simply add a few lines at the end of your current gear lists that simply refer to the custom gear page. Include those referencing lines from your individual tabs in your drop-down list (i.e. widen the range to include those extra lines) and then you don't have to worry about directly looking up from multiple tabs. (NB: It may require that the custom lists all receive dummy names for selection purposes, such as Neck 1, Neck 2, etc.)

The Iron Colonel · 04/30/07, 5:30 PM

Originally Posted by Cheeky

3) I have no clue how to model the Hourglass. It's difficult with a hidden cooldown. If you can get me reliable numbers for the cooldown duration, and rate of proc afterwards (wither proc per minute or stright chance on crit) I'll give it a go. I have a whole infrastructure in place for haste effects, but I have little rate information on the Dragonspine Throphy too.

I'm not sure the best method for modeling dragonspine trophy. One method would be to determine the average added haste, but given the low attack speeds that you get with BM this may not yield accurate results (that is to say that you are required to adjust your rotation to priority when speed gets too low to avoid clipping autoshots). If you're willing to accept that as a simplistic model (it would probably not be representative of a real life situation due to the adjusted rotation) I reckon it's around 9% time averaged haste (325 haste * 10s/60 s/m*1.7ppm = 92 haste rating = 8.76% haste). Honestly, though, I'm not sure what the best method of modeling it is.

Originally Posted by Cheeky

4) I fixed gore, that was pretty easy. I must have missed issues with Unleashed Rage. Player Crit only comes into play for Go For the Throat and Kill Command, as far as I can figure it out. Can you explain what you thing is wrong/missing?

I'm not sure what the Unleashed Rage (you called it Unleashed Fury in your quote, perhaps that's the source of miscommunication?) issue was/is, I merely was referencing your post in the BM raiding thread where you said:

Originally Posted by Cheeky

I also had some mis-alignment in the Damage per Focus calculations, they were not factoring in the damage after adjustments from crit, Unleashed Fury, etc.

Again, I'm not sure what the issue you are bringing up is, I just felt I should include it in my pet questions. As far as GFTT goes, my impression is that it is currently included in the focus regen model (as a function of player crit). Is this not the case?

Otherwise things look good, thanks again!

Cheeky · 04/30/07, 6:02 PM

Originally Posted by The Iron Colonel

I'm not sure the best method for modeling dragonspine trophy. One method would be to determine the average added haste, but given the low attack speeds that you get with BM this may not yield accurate results (that is to say that you are required to adjust your rotation to priority when speed gets too low to avoid clipping autoshots). If you're willing to accept that as a simplistic model (it would probably not be representative of a real life situation due to the adjusted rotation) I reckon it's around 9% time averaged haste (325 haste * 10s/60 s/m*1.7ppm = 92 haste rating = 8.76% haste). Honestly, though, I'm not sure what the best method of modeling it is.

Hmm. I'll think about this a while. I'm not thrilled with what we have for Quick Shots for the same reason. It's a binary effect that we are smoothing into an average. Only problem is the average is not something you'd ever see at any one point.

The way I handle ppm is to figure out what the precentage would be based on the un-hasted auto shot speed, and then compute up time based on the shots per second I can derive from the Shot Rotation. So if it is a 1.7 ppm trinket a Hunter is going to see a hell of a lot more benefit than 8.76%.

Some simple math:
2.8 speed weapon - 1.7 ppm means 7.93% chance on any hit.

2.8 speed with quiver and trinket proc'd is 1.86s
Simple Auto/special rotation is still possible, but tricky. 2 shots every 1.86 seconds.
Chance to be in proc is the chance any attack in the last 10 seconds proc'd it. That would be: 1-(1 - chance)^floor(10/.93) = 1 - (.9207 ^ 10) = 56.23% uptime.

Wow, that's a lot of uptime. Is this the kind of effect people are seeing? That's an average gain of 182.75 haste rating, or 17.4% haste. It's like having another quiver. Since you can still maintain a steady/auto roatation with slower bows this is a 17.4% DPS gain. Good lord that's sweet.

Of course, it wouldn't be possible to handle it with Quick Shots, Berzerk, or Rapid Fire at the same time. And Serpent's Swiftness would really be a pain in the ass without the Arena Xbow.

Originally Posted by The Iron Colonel

I'm not sure what the Unleashed Rage (you called it Unleashed Fury in your quote, perhaps that's the source of miscommunication?) issue was/is, I merely was referencing your post in the BM raiding thread where you said:

Again, I'm not sure what the issue you are bringing up is, I just felt I should include it in my pet questions. As far as GFTT goes, my impression is that it is currently included in the focus regen model (as a function of player crit). Is this not the case?

Otherwise things look good, thanks again!

Yep, I'm an idiot. The miscommunication seems to be my fault. GFtT is modeled as well as I can think to do it. It's not much different in the in-progess version than version 11.

The Iron Colonel · 04/30/07, 6:47 PM

Originally Posted by Cheeky

Some simple math:
2.8 speed weapon - 1.7 ppm means 7.93% chance on any hit.

2.8 speed with quiver and trinket proc'd is 1.86s
Simple Auto/special rotation is still possible, but tricky. 2 shots every 1.86 seconds.
Chance to be in proc is the chance any attack in the last 10 seconds proc'd it. That would be: 1-(1 - chance)^floor(10/.93) = 1 - (.9207 ^ 10) = 56.23% uptime.

I agree using the average haste is probably a bad idea. I'm really not great at modeling probabilistic events, but the percentage time under effect (up time) seems rather higher than I anticipated. Using the converse probability seems to be the way of determining up time, but it definitely strikes me as odd that it would have such a high up-time.

Indulge me as I step through your math (mostly for my own gratification).
Weapon Speed = 2.8
Shots / Minute = 60 / 2.8 = 21.4
Proc / Minute = 1.7
Procs / Minute / Shots / Minute = 1.7 / 21.4 = 0.079 Procs / Shot

This is assuming procs / minute gives a percentage based purely on weapon speed (that is, discounting special shots). My question is this: does the chance to proc dynamically look at attack speed for each attack (thus changing the chance to proc depending on if quick shots is up, etc) or does it just use the base weapon speed? If it uses the base weapon speed, Dragonspine is pretty much godly for hunters. If not, I don't know - I'd have to see empirical data or a thorough model. If it uses attack speed rather than weapon speed, up time would be something like this (assuming only autoshots):

Weapon Speed = 2.9/(1.15*1.20)=2.10
AutoShots / Minute = 60 / 2.10 = 28.6
Procs / Shot = 1.7 / 28.6 = 0.059 procs/shot

Uptime During Rotation (using auto/steady rotation)
Hasted Speed = 2.90 / (1.31 * 1.15 * 1.20) = 1.60 / 2 = 0.80 (steady/auto rotation)
Uptime = 1-(1-0.059)^floor(10/0.80) = 1 - (0.0.941^12) = 51.8% uptime

I used a different weapon speed than you did (wanted to model for Sunfury speed, since that seems to be the most common weapon used), but the difference will only be slight. Even if attack speed is used instead of weapon speed the up time is significant (assuming it can proc on yellow hits, of course).

My gut feeling is that every time you shoot the game determines the chance to proc based on attack speed. If not then this trinket is retardedly good for a hunter, in terms of percentage time under effect (and uniquely so, as hunters have more haste effects available as a class through talents and quivers/ammo pouches than other classes have). Obviously some testing is in order to verify this (I didn't have the DKP to get the dragonspine we had drop last night or I'd gladly do it...QQ). Can someone verify if it can proc from yellow hits or only white hits and what the approximate chance to proc per shot is (try not to use quick shots / AotH for consistency)?

Xeen · 05/01/07, 2:39 PM

Currently Monster/Humanoid Slaying talents are ignored. It would be pretty keen if the page showing calculated DPS could add a row showing DPS against each mob type with those talents factored if they have points placed in them.

Cheeky · 05/01/07, 3:20 PM

Originally Posted by Xeen

Currently Monster/Humanoid Slaying talents are ignored. It would be pretty keen if the page showing calculated DPS could add a row showing DPS against each mob type with those talents factored if they have points placed in them.

I could add that. Basically it will be ~3% higher. More based on your crit rate. I've been hesitent to do that because then it opens the door to people asking for +AP vs. <xxxx> being added in for weapons that have that too. And I'm really not interested in going down that path!

I'll see if it's pretty simple to add. I think it is.

matthra · 05/01/07, 7:43 PM

I'm excited to hear about the features in the new version,when do you think we will be able to test it ou?

Cheeky · 05/01/07, 7:52 PM

Originally Posted by matthra

I'm excited to hear about the features in the new version,when do you think we will be able to test it ou?

Would people want it before 2.1? I can probably release it tomorrow. The gear stats for changed items will all be wrong, but the chances of me catching them all even a week after release is minimal. Just post here or send me pms for what needs fixing. Item changes are easy, and I can release updated versions almost daily.

Aesa · 05/01/07, 8:04 PM

Originally Posted by Cheeky

Would people want it before 2.1? I can probably release it tomorrow. The gear stats for changed items will all be wrong, but the chances of me catching them all even a week after release is minimal. Just post here or send me pms for what needs fixing. Item changes are easy, and I can release updated versions almost daily.

I'd love to see the spreadsheet before the patch is actually live... I'm looking forward to seeing how the Surestrike Goggles v2.0 fit into my set of gear. Thanks!

helias126 · 05/02/07, 1:50 AM

Originally Posted by Cheeky

Would people want it before 2.1? I can probably release it tomorrow. The gear stats for changed items will all be wrong, but the chances of me catching them all even a week after release is minimal. Just post here or send me pms for what needs fixing. Item changes are easy, and I can release updated versions almost daily.

Would love to see a new version with shot rotations adjusted with latency

Cheeky · 05/02/07, 10:54 AM

Ok, version 12 is available. There are quite a few changes in this release, and I've converted over as much as I could think of to use 2.1's mechanics.

The biggest differences are Hunter's Mark, Survival Talents, Kill Command, and Hunter/pet buffs.

Please let me know what errors you find in gear, talents, math, spelling, methodology, or layout.

Enjoy! (Same link as always)