Interesting. Was this a stealth nerf? I don't see it any of the patch notes. Also, the character sheet actually shows my pet getting 12.87% spell damage from my RAP. This is actually consistent with this wowwiki article: Pet (Hunter - WoWWiki - Your guide to the World of Warcraft). I wouldn't put it past them to have an inaccurate tooltip though *cough*steady shot*cough*
Bah this whole thing is a mess. I'll do some testing when I get home and hopefully be able to have some hard evidence to support changing those wiki pages to be consistent and correct. Or if someone knows if testing was already done and can link me?
It wasn't in a patch notes; the change was done as a hotfix. "Around 2.1" is all I remember for timeframe. My understanding is they left the RAP -> pet spelldamage conversion the same but nerfed the coefficient on LB itself way way down. A while later they did the same thing to Scorpid Poison, which makes me wonder why they don't just leave the coefficients alone and nerf the RAP -> spelldamage conversion itself. At least then pets could benefit more than a couple points from raid +dmg buffs.
It sounds to me like they neither nerfed RAP -> spell damage in general, nor the coefficient of LB. They just changed the RAP -> spell damage conversion for LB specifically, from 12.5% to (I'm guessing, based on what Cheeky has) to 1.25%. So it still shows up as 12.5% on the character sheet - for the sole purpose of confusing me imo.
Both coefficients are easily tested by taking off a couple pieces of gear.
Hunter AP: 2161, Pet spell damage: 278. Average of 5 LBs: 149 damage
Hunter AP: 2406, Pet spell damage: 309. Average of 5 LBs: 159 damage
(none of the LBs were crits or resists, and were all done on the same level 63 spider)
Increasing AP by 245 increased spell damage by 31. That's exactly a conversion ratio of 0.125 spell damage per AP.
Increasin Spell Damage by 31 increased LB's damage by ~10. That's a spell coefficient of 0.32 - but could actually be 0.43, due to the small sample size of 5.
It would seem that the spreadsheet is indeed adding an extra factor of 10 reduction to the AP->LB calculation.
Both coefficients are easily tested by taking off a couple pieces of gear.
Hunter AP: 2161, Pet spell damage: 278. Average of 5 LBs: 149 damage
Hunter AP: 2406, Pet spell damage: 309. Average of 5 LBs: 159 damage
(none of the LBs were crits or resists, and were all done on the same level 63 spider)
Increasing AP by 245 increased spell damage by 31. That's exactly a conversion ratio of 0.125 spell damage per AP.
Increasin Spell Damage by 31 increased LB's damage by ~10. That's a spell coefficient of 0.32 - but could actually be 0.43, due to the small sample size of 5.
It would seem that the spreadsheet is indeed adding an extra factor of 10 reduction to the AP->LB calculation.
You're looking at character sheet numbers, which as I mentioned earlier, appear to be inaccurate for LB. The method seems a bit backwards too.
Assuming those numbers are accurate, you've got:
108.5+2406*x*.43=159 (x=4.9%)
108.5+2161*x*.43=149 (x=4.4%)
So that would suggest 1 RAP -> .04 or .05 spell damage for LB purposes. Which is much less than 12.5% but isn't 1.25% either.
I'll do some tests on this when I can actually remember too... I feel like I'm way behind on looking into this, but I can't find info on it anywhere.
The red line (median damage) is 136 + AP*0.125*0.43*0.15. The blue lines (min/max) are +/- 10 dmg from the red line.
Why is this the behavior of LB? Who knows. At this point, the best we can do is to snicker at Blizzard and their tooltips.
Ok, so that's .125*.15=1.875% which is pretty close to Cheeky's 1.25 (again, I really wish that bastard could just tell us where he got that number ). I don't know if we even need to consider varying AP levels, since it should all be scalar anyway.
Thanks for the data though Gear, I'll add my own if I have some time before the raid when I get home from work.
I think there may be a problem with the crit damage modifier as well. I did some testing on my shaman with the chaotic skyfire diamond - and while this is admittedly a different gem, I don't think it's an unfair assumption to say that the 3% crit bonus works the same on both.
Cheeky's spreadsheet assumes it works like this:
(base crit bonus + 30%)*1.03 = 133.9%, or 233.9% the damage of a normal shot
All of my testing with the chaotic skyfire showed that this couldn't possibly be how it works. Instead, the meta gem actually gets applied before the talents. It should also be noted that while the 30% from mortal shots is only applied to the damage gained from the crit modifier (100%), the meta is 3% of the TOTAL damage. So the result would look like this:
Untalented/gemmed crit vs normal hit is 200%.
Multiplying this by 1.03 we get 206
The crit bonus of this (106) is increased by 30%, so 106*1.3=137.8
That is, 237.8% the damage of a normal shot.
The difference is not that big, and again this still assumes the chaotic works the same as the relentless. I know for a fact from my own testing that ele shaman and destro (ruin) locks do 209% crit damage because of how this works (their base crit is 150% -> 1.50*1.03= 1.545 -> .545*2+1=2.09)
I dont have a account on EJ so i cant post it their but it seems Gronnstalker's Spaulders is not counting to the 4set so it's hard to see what non Sunwell t6 item is best to keep compared to its sunwell item
Ok I finally got around to doing some testing on Lightning Breath. I spent some time in the Blasted Lands doing nothing but mend pet and lightning breath. Ferocious Inspiration could not be avoided, but it wasn't too hard to manually remove all of the lines where this buff had FADED. Thus for the below data it's always on.
I'm using a basic 41/20/0 BM template, with 2/2 Animal Handler, and my pet still gets a lot of misses on boss encounters (even Gruul). Around 12% on standard attacks and Bite/Gore, and up to 25% on KC (wowwebstats of 1 month of raid). Does anyone have the same rough results, or am I just unlucky?
I'm using a basic 41/20/0 BM template, with 2/2 Animal Handler, and my pet still gets a lot of misses on boss encounters (even Gruul). Around 12% on standard attacks and Bite/Gore, and up to 25% on KC (wowwebstats of 1 month of raid). Does anyone have the same rough results, or am I just unlucky?
That's normal and would be much worse if you didn't have 2/2 AH.
Then... Here comes another question. Why do I see my pet on 95% hit chance on the spreadsheet?
Does it have something to do with the target's chance to dodge and Parry comming in a second roll after the pet's chance to hit?
The "Missed"-column in a WWS Overview takes all kinds of not-hitting into account (Parry, Dodge, Miss). To see the real number of Misses you have to click on one of your pets abilitys to open its details.
Anyone else noticed problems with the 4 part Gronnstalkers bonus not applying to the latest OO version? I've got helm chest gloves and legs input and yet the field at the bottom is only showing 3 parts filled, yet if I add in bracers it recognises 4 part achieved. From what I can see having moved parts in and out, it's the gloves that aren't registering as set bonus.
edit: shoulders don't seem to be applying the bonus either.
Anyone else noticed problems with the 4 part Gronnstalkers bonus not applying to the latest OO version? I've got helm chest gloves and legs input and yet the field at the bottom is only showing 3 parts filled, yet if I add in bracers it recognises 4 part achieved. From what I can see having moved parts in and out, it's the gloves that aren't registering as set bonus.
edit: shoulders don't seem to be applying the bonus either.
Ye, reported it a few weeks ago already, we'll just have to wait till a version 50 comes out i guess. And it only seems to have gone wrong in the OO version, the Excel seems to be still correct.
mp/5 and Efficiency not increasing total damage done
I've been using the spreadsheet a long time, but have not been on the forums. I can't get here from work. forgive me if this has been asked before.
one thing I've been trying to do, and I may be doing something wrong...
when I "respec" to Efficiency over improved hunters mark, the pets damage does go down(as expected), and the used mana does go down, BUT the amount of total damage done by the hunter stays constant... how is this possible? if less mana is used, you would expect the time before mana exhaustion to increase(as it does) but total damage should increase because you've done nothing to decrease the output, but added more shots before OOM occurs. same for mana totems, major majeblood elixers, and MP5 gems...
is there a way to get the calculation for total damage until OOM to see how much more damage until OOM can be obtained by gear/talent/buff changes?
I've been using the spreadsheet a long time, but have not been on the forums. I can't get here from work. forgive me if this has been asked before.
one thing I've been trying to do, and I may be doing something wrong...
when I "respec" to Efficiency over improved hunters mark, the pets damage does go down(as expected), and the used mana does go down, BUT the amount of total damage done by the hunter stays constant... how is this possible? if less mana is used, you would expect the time before mana exhaustion to increase(as it does) but total damage should increase because you've done nothing to decrease the output, but added more shots before OOM occurs. same for mana totems, major majeblood elixers, and MP5 gems...
is there a way to get the calculation for total damage until OOM to see how much more damage until OOM can be obtained by gear/talent/buff changes?
Time till exhaustion and Total Damage done aren't connected. Total Damage done is just calculating the damage done by those 50 shots in shot rotation table. If you want to do a quick comparison, You could calculate DPS x time till exhaustion and compare that number to the difference between PET DPS with imp mark x Length of fight and Pet DPS without imp mark. I don't think it's a fair comparison though. In a raid there's going to be multiple hunter pets, multiple tanks and multiple melee DPS taking advantage of that Imp Mark. With just a few people smacking the mob, Imp Mark is going to surpass the effectiveness of Efficiency.
I downloaded the spreadsheet and enabled macros. But whenever I try the 'Load Gear from Armory' button from the Gear tab, I get an error saying 'A connection with the server could not be established'. I have even tried to use the default name & server (Cheeky & Khadgar). I also can't seem to find any information about this within the forums.
Also, small typo in the Shot Rotation & Quick Shots where it says 'Finsihing Shot'. Other than what's been said above, I can't wait to start using it.
Time till exhaustion and Total Damage done aren't connected. Total Damage done is just calculating the damage done by those 50 shots in shot rotation table. If you want to do a quick comparison, You could calculate DPS x time till exhaustion and compare that number to the difference between PET DPS with imp mark x Length of fight and Pet DPS without imp mark. I don't think it's a fair comparison though. In a raid there's going to be multiple hunter pets, multiple tanks and multiple melee DPS taking advantage of that Imp Mark. With just a few people smacking the mob, Imp Mark is going to surpass the effectiveness of Efficiency.
I'm certainly not arguing that... esp for 25 mans. however my situation is this, I'm in a small guild where we are only doing 10 mans for now. and in those 10 mans we haven't had a rogue or a dps warrior in months... at most 1 other hunter, and a lot of casters. Much of our DPS is still in blues and greens, making the fights take much longer than they should. I'm the only DPS that puts out 1000dps+ on every boss. so when I go OOM the whole raid suffers. which is why I wanted to do the comparison. if we start running with rogues and melee dps, I'll keep mark, hands down. I just wanted to do the comparison.
I'm a big fan of the changes in the last few versions, especially the gear planner. I was wondering though if you had any plans to add a 'mail only' and 'leather only' filter. I know with my guild, leather really wouldn't be an option for me, losing the +int would be bad with how our raid setup usually works.
Cheers, and keep on rocking the Khadgar progression!
I'm a big fan of the changes in the last few versions, especially the gear planner. I was wondering though if you had any plans to add a 'mail only' and 'leather only' filter. I know with my guild, leather really wouldn't be an option for me, losing the +int would be bad with how our raid setup usually works.
Cheers, and keep on rocking the Khadgar progression!
Dondee
I second this. I would love to see a filter for mail and leather, as of right now leather goes to our rogues first.
Have I missed a change in the current version? I just downloaded it and now [Bloodmoon] is now better than [The Blade of Harbingers]. The previous version had the DPS values for the two items on the gear planning tab were as follows:
The Blade of Harbingers: 107.85
Bloodmoon: 67.45
Now they are coming up as:
The Blade of Harbingers: 47.38
Bloodmoon: 48.68
note: Hit rating selection in the gear planning tab does not effect this as neither weapon has +hit.
06/17/08, 3:46 AM
). I don't know if we even need to consider varying AP levels, since it should all be scalar anyway.
Why do I see my pet on 95% hit chance on the spreadsheet? 
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