Hunter Spreadsheets -- In development - Page 96

Sebudai · 08/05/08, 6:37 AM

Sorry, Cheeky. I was being a little snarky, but it wasn't aimed at you at all. I was really just looking for a quick "you're wrong and this is why..." or a "you're right" and not a "well, spreadsheets and simulators are naturally somewhat inaccurate because it is impossible to perfectly model real game conditions" etc. I'm well aware of the limitations of a spreadsheets. Anyway, this is a copy of my current 1:1.4 rotation:

#	Action	Damage	        Mana    Start	Stop
1	Auto	1,584.71	0	0.00	0.50
2	Steady	1,745.54	102	0.50	1.80
3	Multi	1,859.01	255	1.80	2.30
4	Auto	1,584.71	0	2.43	2.93
5	Steady	1,745.54	102	3.30	4.61
6	Auto	1,584.71	0	4.87	5.37
7	Steady	1,745.54	102	5.37	6.67
8	Auto	1,584.71	0	7.30	7.80
9	Steady	1,745.54	102	7.80	9.11
10	Arcane	1,613.85	213	9.11	9.11
11	Auto	1,584.71	0	9.74	10.24
12	Steady	1,745.54	102	10.61	11.91
13	Auto	1,584.71	0	12.17	12.67
14	Steady	1,745.54	102	12.67	13.98
15	Auto	1,584.71	0	14.61	15.11
16	Steady	1,745.54	102	15.11	16.41
17	Multi	1,859.01	255	16.41	16.91
18	Auto	1,584.71	0	17.04	17.54
19	Steady	1,745.54	102	17.91	19.22
20	Auto	1,584.71	0	19.48	19.98
21	Steady	1,745.54	102	19.98	21.28
22	Auto	1,584.71	0	21.91	22.41
23	Steady	1,745.54	102	22.41	23.72
24	Arcane	1,613.85	213	23.72	23.72
25	Auto	1,584.71	0	24.35	24.85
26	Steady	1,745.54	102	25.22	26.52
27	Auto	1,584.71	0	26.78	27.28
28	Steady	1,745.54	102	27.28	28.59
29	Auto	1,584.71	0	29.22	29.72
30	Steady	1,745.54	102	29.72	31.02
31	Multi	1,859.01	255	31.02	31.52
32	Auto	1,584.71	0	31.65	32.15
33	Steady	1,745.54	102	32.52	33.83
34	Auto	1,584.71	0	34.09	34.59
35	Steady	1,745.54	102	34.59	35.89
36	Auto	1,584.71	0	36.52	37.02
37	Steady	1,745.54	102	37.02	38.33
38	Arcane	1,613.85	213	38.33	38.33
39	Auto	1,584.71	0	38.96	39.46
40	Steady	1,745.54	102	39.83	41.13
41	Auto	1,584.71	0	41.39	41.89
42	Steady	1,745.54	102	41.89	43.20
43	Auto	1,584.71	0	43.83	44.33
44	Steady	1,745.54	102	44.33	45.63
45	Multi	1,859.01	255	45.63	46.13
46	Auto	1,584.71	0	46.26	46.76
47	Steady	1,745.54	102	47.13	48.43
48	Auto	1,584.71	0	48.70	49.20
49	Steady	1,745.54	102	49.20	50.50
50	Auto	1,584.71	0	51.13	51.63

As far as I can tell, the spreadsheet thinks I can start things like Arcane Shot or Multi-shot 1.3 seconds after I cast Steady Shot, and not 1.5. If I had more haste it would be even less accurate. Anyway, am I interpreting all of this incorrectly? I'm not looking for anyone to fix the spreadsheet, I just want confirmation as to whether or not this error exists so I can tell if I need to account for it. I appreciate the assistance so far, guys.

Cheeky · 08/05/08, 10:25 AM

Originally Posted by Sebudai

Sorry, Cheeky. I was being a little snarky, but it wasn't aimed at you at all. I was really just looking for a quick "you're wrong and this is why..." or a "you're right" and not a "well, spreadsheets and simulators are naturally somewhat inaccurate because it is impossible to perfectly model real game conditions" etc. I'm well aware of the limitations of a spreadsheets. Anyway, this is a copy of my current 1:1.4 rotation:

As far as I can tell, the spreadsheet thinks I can start things like Arcane Shot or Multi-shot 1.3 seconds after I cast Steady Shot, and not 1.5. If I had more haste it would be even less accurate. Anyway, am I interpreting all of this incorrectly? I'm not looking for anyone to fix the spreadsheet, I just want confirmation as to whether or not this error exists so I can tell if I need to account for it. I appreciate the assistance so far, guys.

Could it be that you have the non-castsequence option selected? In that case the spreadsheet will recover GCD during the cast of Auto Shot, making it seem like you can chain 2 specials closer than 1.5s. This mimics what you can get in game, but the GCD should eventually catch up to you again and start limiting total special shot throughput to 1/1.5s.

The last row of the matrix is the GCD, take a look at what's going on there. See if what is happening algebraically makes sense to you. This was all part of my effort to model the client-side GCD changes (and the whole reason the /cast /cast macro seems to work.) I could have screwed something up, since I very rarely use other than a 1:1 rotation myself.

You may be wrong, you may be right. I dunno. There's some tricky math in there in regards to the GCD, and I'm perfectly capable of having fucked it all up.

DOOA · 08/05/08, 3:08 PM

Cheeky,
I lament this being the last issue of your spreadsheet.
Any chance you show how to add items so we can have drop downs for new stuff?
Currently I use Custom, but having a drop down would be much faster for trying combinations.

Cheeky · 08/05/08, 3:12 PM

Originally Posted by DOOA

Cheeky,
I lament this being the last issue of your spreadsheet.
Any chance you show how to add items so we can have drop downs for new stuff?
Currently I use Custom, but having a drop down would be much faster for trying combinations.

Unhide the item sheets, insert new rows, and fill in the blanks.

brigwyn · 08/05/08, 3:32 PM

Cheeky and Lactose,
You know how all of us over at The Hunting Lodge much less the entire hunter community appreciate all of the hardwork the both of you have done for us hunters. So a simple thank you is not enough but is really all we can offer.

Since I'm not sure how long Elitist Jerks or either of you will continue hosting the spreadsheet or this forum. I just wanted to let you know that I'm willing to host it, keeping this original version preserved and also am willing to offer anyone that's willing to pick up the torch - a forum and hosting site to keep this project alive. Of course this is only if this is acceptable to the both of you.

- Brig
The Hunting Lodge Forums

beathoven · 08/06/08, 2:56 AM

A big thanks from myself to Lactose and Cheeky as well. Your work really made a huge difference, be it on the spreadsheet or detailed investigation of hunter mechanics. So thank you both for your efforts and have fun in whatever you are going to do in the future.

Sebudai · 08/06/08, 5:11 AM

Originally Posted by Cheeky

Could it be that you have the non-castsequence option selected? In that case the spreadsheet will recover GCD during the cast of Auto Shot, making it seem like you can chain 2 specials closer than 1.5s. This mimics what you can get in game, but the GCD should eventually catch up to you again and start limiting total special shot throughput to 1/1.5s.

The last row of the matrix is the GCD, take a look at what's going on there. See if what is happening algebraically makes sense to you. This was all part of my effort to model the client-side GCD changes (and the whole reason the /cast /cast macro seems to work.) I could have screwed something up, since I very rarely use other than a 1:1 rotation myself.

You may be wrong, you may be right. I dunno. There's some tricky math in there in regards to the GCD, and I'm perfectly capable of having fucked it all up.

Yep, that's exactly what it was. I had Hand-Weaved selected because that's what I have been doing in-game. Switching that to Cast Sequence seems to put everything in order. Thanks for the help, and for the spreadsheet in general. I appreciate it.

-EDIT-
I guess I really have no idea why the Castsequence option accounts for the GCD and the other two options don't. I don't get it. I mean, if I hand-weave my shots in-game I get to ignore the GCD? I don't understand. What behavior is this attempting to mimic?

Bikiniwax · 08/06/08, 10:29 AM

Thanks to Cheeky and Lactose for all your hard work. This spreadsheet has been THE reference tool for informed hunters everywhere.

Nophshlah · 08/06/08, 12:19 PM

Originally Posted by Sebudai

I guess I really have no idea why the Castsequence option accounts for the GCD and the other two options don't. I don't get it. I mean, if I hand-weave my shots in-game I get to ignore the GCD? I don't understand. What behavior is this attempting to mimic?

In one of the patches, 2.2 I believe, they changed how the GCD worked. The client now allows you to start specials early, even if the server side does not think the full 1.5 seconds have elapsed. This ONLY works with hand-weaving. A /castsequence macro will always wait for the full 1.5 seconds before attempting to fire the next shot.

Tsook · 08/06/08, 4:09 PM

Originally Posted by Sebudai

I guess I really have no idea why the Castsequence option accounts for the GCD and the other two options don't. I don't get it. I mean, if I hand-weave my shots in-game I get to ignore the GCD? I don't understand. What behavior is this attempting to mimic?

Since 2.3 special shots started after autoshot's channel time starts but before it finishes are delayed until after the auto - but their GCD is not. This means, assuming the .5 second auto cast time we usually do, in theory you can get up to a .5 second 'head start' on the GCD from the steady that immediately follows an auto, assuming the GCD is up before the auto. It's one of the reasons Cheeky theorized the 3:2 rotation 'works' -- if you look at the space between two autos where you get two steady shots, you're essentially offsetting the GCD for the first one back into time you couldn't have been doing anything anyway (auto cast time), which allows you to start the second steady shot before you should have been able to.

Using .00001 as an arbitrary unit for 'very short':

time action
0.00000 auto cast time starts
0.00001 steady1 GCD starts
0.50000 auto cast time finishes, steady cast time starts
1.50001 steady1 GCD finishes
1.50002 steady2 GCD and cast time starts (because of the 'spell queueing' that was put in for all casters in 2.2 or whatever, but we couldn't really take advantage of until 2.3)
1.60001 steady1 cast time finishes (assuming exactly 1.1 second steady, obviously this part will vary slightly)
2.60002 steady2 cast time finishes
2.60003 auto cast time starts
3.00002 steady2 GCD finishes (if I was continuing this you'd start a new steady cast time/GCD here, gaining .1 on the next GCD)
3.10003 auto cast time finishes

It's.. pretty much bullshit, and why I've avoided using the 3:2 macro. As Cheeky said when it first came out: "this is making me want to quit hunter theorycrafting."

Sebudai · 08/07/08, 1:38 AM

Man, friggin' hunter mechanics...

Thanks for the explanation, Tsook. That clears up a lot of my confusion.

Gramzon · 08/07/08, 4:41 AM

Ok i have a silly question. How do i switch the profiles? Whenever i load or save a profile it just loads and saves the first one?

SenorPez · 08/07/08, 11:17 AM

Originally Posted by Gramzon

Ok i have a silly question. How do i switch the profiles? Whenever i load or save a profile it just loads and saves the first one?

The "Profile Name" field at the top of the Gear tab is a drop-down list. Select a profile from that list, and click [Load]. (It doesn't load automatically.) Viola!

Gramzon · 08/07/08, 3:21 PM

ty for that

anyway when i try to load gear from armory this is what i get:
Run-time error '91':
Object variable or With block variable not set.

and when i go to debug it singles out this line:

If Node.Attributes.Length = 0 Then

Fleabite · 08/07/08, 6:21 PM

Just wanted to say a huge thankyou to cheeky and lacoste for their work on the spreadsheet over such a long time. Discovered it when I first started kara, still using it now I've just entered swp. Massive props guys, You've been a huge asset to the WoW Hunter community, EU and US alike.

Ta

KraxisSingular · 08/08/08, 7:36 AM

Joining the crowd to express my gratitude.

The spreadsheet really made a difference. I knew somewhat what to go for, but the spreadsheet set in stone when it was dicey for me to know. Comparing different and unrealted stats is no easy task when you have little experience with them.

Thanks for all the hard work.

Fola · 08/08/08, 9:17 AM

Just wanted to drop in also and express my gratitude for all the hard work you did putting the spreadsheet together and constantly updating it. Definately one of the best class tools out there, enjoy the time you freed up!

brigwyn · 08/08/08, 11:27 AM

With the blessing of Cheeky and in case anyone is interested Wertez at The Hunting Lodge has updated the spreadsheet to now have the Guardian gear included and is working on future versions.

Fairbo · 08/08/08, 1:48 PM

Originally Posted by brigwyn

With the blessing of Cheeky and in case anyone is interested Wertez at The Hunting Lodge has updated the spreadsheet to now have the Guardian gear included and is working on future versions.

Thanks for taking up the spreadsheet for the future versions. I did notice though that the [Guardian's Pendant of Triumph] & [Guardian's Band of Triumph] still are not in the spreadsheet.

brigwyn · 08/08/08, 2:45 PM

Originally Posted by Fairbo

Thanks for taking up the spreadsheet for the future versions. I did notice though that the [Guardian's Pendant of Triumph] & [Guardian's Band of Triumph] still are not in the spreadsheet.

I'll take this over to The Hunting Lodge forums for Wertez. I'm not sure if he tracks this or not. And after a couple of days I'll just be keeping up with the discussions going on at the Lodge for the most part.

But thanks, I'll let him know.

boogyness · 08/12/08, 7:36 AM

Hello Cheeky,

First, thank's a lot for the work you've provided. It helped me a lot to try and find the best cycle according my weapon speed, try and optimize my stuff for raid etc...

I just have a little problem with open office and Gronnstalker's Spaulders (seen as Black Temple item set instead of T6 tier) and Gronnstalker's Gloves (seen as "1" item set instead od T6). I cannot unhide sheets corresponding to these items as they seem to be locked, so I cannot solve the problem by myself.

Would it be possible for you to unlock the open office spreadsheet so we can modify it by ourselves?

Thanks again.

Drazm · 08/13/08, 5:38 PM

I noticed that the gear planner doesn't support ranged weapons (both through observation and the change log). I assume there is a good reason for this, such as it's a huge pain.

Does anyone know the correct calculations, or can point me to a post, for ranged weapon DPS? If possible I would like to add this to the gear planner worksheet.

Also, I'm no guru with excel or spreadsheets in general, so how would I go about editing the sort button so it could modify the ranged worksheet like it does the equipment and melee worksheets?

Chasim · 08/19/08, 8:26 PM

First, thanks for all the hard work on the spreadsheet - it has been an invaluable hunter tool.

Second, in terms of DPS modeling for "Use" trinkets, like Berserker's Call, I assume that the assigned DPS is based upon use every cooldown. Is that correct?

SenorPez · 08/20/08, 10:48 AM

Originally Posted by Chasim

First, thanks for all the hard work on the spreadsheet - it has been an invaluable hunter tool.

Second, in terms of DPS modeling for "Use" trinkets, like Berserker's Call, I assume that the assigned DPS is based upon use every cooldown. Is that correct?

By default, that's correct. The spreadsheet assumes you're popping the trinkets (and specials, like Rapid Fire) every cooldown. There are settings on the Settings and Results tab that can change some of this behavior; look at Control Settings and play with the options to see their effects.

As always, the spreadsheet is more of a guide than a bible. Depending on the length of the fight, and how you rotate your trinkets, your real DPS can "drift" up or down, and while it could be modeled, the minimal amount of useful data that would be obtained would be offset by the effort required to make it happen.

Brasou · 08/20/08, 1:19 PM

Hey, whenever I try to load gear or talents from armory I get a "Run-time error '1004': Method 'Calculation' of object'_Application' failed" error and I was just wondering if this was something in Excel messing up or if anybody else was having this problem. I tried several different versions and they all did the same thing. If anybody has any suggestions on how to maybe fix this that would be great. Thanks.