still that are some very sick numbers. beating the 85 = crushing blows < 15%
p.s i hope ctprofiles doesn't suck to much in counting numbers. i will recheck them later.
p.p.s night elfs got one more dodge...eek, so the number is damn close, i understand now why we need 30agi for one dodge.
Clearly you're trying to build a non-insane set, since you've added stamina enchants where you could have added agility and shield block rating. Is 12 agility really higher dodge than the +dodge enchant?
Edit: Also, it's too bad ctprofiles doesn't work with gems... might be able to push your avoidance a little higher with some epic gems that don't suck... opposed to just adding all 12 stamina gems everywhere avoiding socket bonuses which seems to be the popular thing to do.
I have read conflicting things about crushing hits from bosses.
Is it possible to mitigate crushing to the extent you imply or do other things get pushed out of the way first?
well shield block does nothing else as adding some percentages to your block chance. you reach 100 with ease that way and pre-tbc there was no way to get crushed in defensive stance while shield block was active.
Edit: Can't seem to find the priority I know someone listed before for the hit table.
Edit2: Ah NM yeah Miss is at the top for some reason was thinking it was at the bottom.
Okay, I avoided entering everything into ctprofiles because of the lack of gems, and I took the head and shoulders enchants he used even though I'm not sure where they're from. This is going to be long, here's the list of gear:
Helm: Warbringer Greathelm [ 1080 Armor | +13 Str | +14 Agi | +47 Sta ] +21 Def Rat | +15 Block Rat | +33 BlockVal
(Tenacious Earthstorm Diamond - +12 Def Rat & Chance to Restore Health on Hit) (+8 Def Rat) **+4 Block Rat**
[+16 Def Rat | +17 Dodge Rat]
Neck: Strength of the Untamed [ +27 Sta ] +19 Def Rat | 18 Dodge Rat
Should: Warbringer Shoulderguards [ 997 Armor | +11 Str | +12 Agi | +34 Sta ] +14 Def Rat | +23 Dodge Rat
[15 Def Rat 10 Dodge rat] (+8 Dodge Rat) (+8 Defense Rat) *+3 Def Rat*
Shield: Platinum Shield of the Valorous [3711 Armor | 83 Block | +33 Sta ] +24 Def Rat [12 block rat]
Gloves: Gauntlets of the Iron Maiden [793 Armor | +34 Sta ] +14 Def Rat | +15 Block Rat
(+8 Dodge Rat) (+8 Defense Rat) *+4 Block Rat* [+15 Agi]
Belt: Sha'tari Vindicator's Waistguard [655 Armor | +33 Sta ] +20 Def Rat | +24 Block Rat | +29 BlockVal
Legs: Warbringer Legguards [1163 Armor | +21 Str | +20 Agi | +49 Sta ] +29 Def Rat | +31 Dodge Rat [35 Sta | +12 Agi]
Boots: Boots of Elusion [872 Armor | +30 Sta ] +21 Def Rat | +36 Dodge Rat [+12 Agi]
Ring: Andormu's Tear | +10 Def Rat | +26 Dodge Rat | +15 Block Rat [+4 Str | +4 Agi | +4 Sta]
Ring2: Andormu's Tear | +10 Def Rat | +26 Dodge Rat | +15 Block Rat [+4 Str | +4 Agi | +4 Sta]
Trink: Figurine - Dawnstone Crab [+32 Def Rat ] (Use: Inc dodge rating by 125 for 20 sec) [Alt: Adamantite Figurine, increases armor by 1280 for 20 sec]
Trink2: Styleen's Impeding Scarab [+24 Block Rat | +20 Def Rat | +24 BlockVal]
(Enchants are in Brackets near the end, Gems are in Parentheses with the Set Bonus in Asterisks)
+8 Def Gem: Thick Dawnstone
+8 Dodge Gem: Subtle Living Ruby
Warbringer set bonus: check
---- Totals, including stats (I used a Tauren, since that's the warrior I'm leveling). Buffs are Blessing of Kings, Imp MOTW, Imp Fort)
Flask of Fortification will push this up to 97.54
Against 73 will be -1.5% (evenly from block/miss/dodge/parry)
Elixir of Major Agility: +1.28% dodge
UnImproved GoA totem: +2.82
I used rating and stat conversions accepted from this site: 30 agil -> 1% Dodge, 1 defense -> 0.04% miss/parry/block/dodge, 2.4 def rating -> 1 defense, 18.9 Dodge Rating -> 1% Dodge, 7.9 Block Rating -> 1% Block.
The only sad thing is you have to be both Enchanting and Jewelcrafting Profession for this to work, at least unless I missed something =)
I assumed 0% Base Dodge, 5% base parry and 5% base block, which I'm not completely sure about.
One thing I'm unsure about: the way Mark of the Wild Stat bonus stacks with potions. If I got that wrong, it's a little under 1% short.
Also, it's late, I might have made a math mistake.
So? What would this accomplish? Well, you save 5 rage every 6 seconds or so from not having to spam Shield Block(A talent point too!), not to mention the Cooldown if you don't time it correctly, and you have a ridiculous amount of avoidance. Coupled with hots and Earthen Shield, I suspect burstyness won't really be a problem (you're fighting against a 65% to take no damage, with a 35% to take -220, with not bad armor reduction)
Threat will probably be the biggest issue, along with tanking while you're building up to this level of avoidance.
Women's breasts can be modeled as a cone and measured as V = (Db^2*h*.785)/3 and since breasts can be thought of as an amorphous fluid, you just have to worry about containing the volume of the breast.
I suppose replace one with a Elementium Band of the Sentry: 24 sta, 20 defense rating, 19 dodge rating. Not quite as good, but with the .75% base dodge you should still make it to 100%
other question is, when fighting against lvl 73 what values get reduced?
enemy miss will bei 4,40
but i think that our dodge and parry will be still the same.
Well the weapon skill of a level 73 is 15 above yours (if it's a "standard" mob and nothing like e.g. Patchwerk) and afaik the normal modifiers are applied to this increased weapon skill, being +hit, -dodge, -parry and +crit.
Now I *still* have no idea whatsoever what exactly weapon skill does after patch 2.0 and the changes Blizzard made to it, therefore it could be totally different than what I just told you.
I took the head and shoulders enchants he used even though I'm not sure where they're from.
The head enchant is from the Keepers of Time Quartermaster and it requires a revered reputation.
The shoulder enchant is from the Scryers (I'm exalted with them and I'm at work so I can't currently check to see if Aldor has the same enchant) and requires exalted reputation.
*Edit* Don't forget on the leggings you could also place a Clefthide Armor kit (+30 stamina and +10 agility) or a Nethercleft Armor kit (+35 stamina and +12 (maybe 15) agility).
Aldor's version of the shoulder enchant is http://www.wowhead.com/?item=28889 (Permanently adds 15 dodge rating and 10 defense rating to a shoulder slot item. Does not stack with other enchantments for the selected equipment slot.)
I looked at the numbers in the linked thread and came up with the following:
Assuming:
1% avoidance =
14.81 defense rat or 18.9 dodge rat or 31.54 parry rat or 7.88 block rat
Therefore:
1 blk rat = 0.1269 avoidance
1 def rat = 0.0675 avoidance
1 dodge rat = 0.0529 avoidance
1 parry rat = 0.0317 avoidance
Assuming 30 agility = 1% dodge: (is this correct?)
1 agi = 0.0333 avoidance
Shooting purely for avoidance to "beat the 85", some gear changes can be made. For example, Strength of the Untamed is beaten by the Steam Hinge Chain of Valor by about 0.2%, by my calculations. Panzar'thar may beat out Warbringer chest, I would have to sit down and run the numbers and possible socket choices. Wherever the socket bonus is irrelevant, defense gems should be socketed over dodge gems (for example - barrel bladed long-rifle) because it gets you slightly closer to beating the 85 than pure dodge.
Also, Ironscale War Cloak beats Devilshark Cape by 0.1%. Assuming i'm right. Figurine of the Colossus > Dawnstone Crab. Etc.
All the numbers are giving me a headache though. With the changes to flasks and elixirs next patch, 100% may no longer be possible to achieve.
as far as i know it is currently possible for dual wield mobs like Malchezaar.
dual wield means
24% enemy miss (5base + 19dual wield malus)
thus the enemy is 73 its only 23.4%.
well to get immune to crushings against lvl 73 we need 102.4% avoidance (cause of the higher weapon skill)... thats enemy miss, dodge, parry, block.
this sounds crazy but it is possible.
against dual wield mobs this is no problem at all, especially if you have a hunter and a shaman in group. scorpid sting is another 5% avoidance, the agility totem is 77agi, which is another 2.5% avoidance. if you take pots you can get mastery + agility to get sth like another 1.5% avoidance which means we can get 9% avoidance from buffs/debuffs. this does not include kings and motw.
lets take malchezaar phase 2, assumimg the tanking warrior has 510 defense.
malchezaar has 23.4 miss.
with a hunter in raid and our added miss through defense this becomes 23.4+5+6= 34.4 enemy miss
we have 510 defense which does mean we have 16 parry (5base+5talent+6defense)
if you sum this up you have 50.4 avoidance already!
so with dodge and block you only need another 52 to become immune. getting 30block and 22dodge or sth like that isn't that hard!
50.4+52=102.4...
you can try it out at malchezaar. do not use shield block and see if you get crushed (phase 2 only, phase 3 axes doen't count ><)
if you want to get immune against mobs without dual wield malus...damn this one is quite heavy. lets asume the best possible, agi totem, hunter and some pots and buffs (kings and stuff). so 10% avoidance from outside buffs...
a lvl 73 enemy has 4.4 base miss, + defense (510) this leads to 10.4 base miss
we got 16 parry and 40 block + 10 avoidance through outside buff/debuffs
thats 76.4 avoidance without dodge which is huge. you need another 26 dodge to get to 102.4 which may be possible with extraordinary gear.
you need very specific gear to make all this happen. but its nearly to full possible.
thus shield block wouldn't be needed any more cause you would mitigate the damage anyway.
but at the end of the day its worth nothing if the enemy parries your attack, gets the attack speed bonus for his next swing and kills you with 2 quick hits. gruul is a bad ass example for this one. he hits so hard that if he parries your attack this can mean death if you do not parry/dodge/miss the following attack.
I am not sure what exactly is the point of this thread - "is the 85% beatable" or "is there any point to beat the 85%" ?
If the question is "is it beatable" then the answer is pretty simple - it is. I myself reach 85% combined miss/dodbe/parry/block vs 73 lvl mob/boss with zero buffs. While raid buffed (pre 2.10 flask, agi pot, GotW, agi totem, etc.) I reach the 100% checkpoint and am crushing immune without using the Shield Block ability.
Did some testing on the PTR with T5 and SSC/TK loot and it gets even easier (meaning with less raid buffs) to dig into the last 15% (if you're rich enough to buy the proper gems before copying your char on the PTR so you can socket the T5).
However here comes the question - what is better - more sta or more avoidance. I do not wish to dig into epic discussions as I've made my choice avoidance + mitigation over stamina (read blue gems here).
This pops up some interesting thoughts about T6. It looks like it will be easy to be crush immune without shield block ability up and at the same time maintain high stamina and even be able to place in some +hit gems. If you look carefully at the set the total avoidance increase comes from the +def increase rather than dodge/parry/block which are kept close to T5 (the total amount that is). This comes to show the value of +block rating. The latter allowes you to be crush immune without spending rage on shield block ability while keeping your avoidance (miss/dodge/parry) steady so you get hit and get rage ofc. The +hit can be compensated with gems however I doubt the parry (haste) buff will be enough to compensate the lack of Strength.
With the above said about T6 I am wondering when blizz tank gear developers will realise the importance of the tank self rage generation, somehow I doubt the haste from the extra parry or the rage you save from not clicking on shield block will compensate for the loss of raw strength in T6.
...and I shall never find Solace for I was born Restless...
Is there any way to model the benefit/loss relationship between choosing one over the other, or is it really just a matter of personal preference?
Never played a tank, so please forgive my ignorance on the subject.
Long story short - more avoidance makes the tank more mana efficient on the long run because you will take less hits for the duration of the fight. Another benefit of high avoidance is to prevent tank deaths due to crushing blows especially when facing dual wielding mobs - their fast hits combined with the Trash ability and the Parry "haste" bonus can make a short work of any tank lacking avoidance (i.e. Prince in Karazhan, perhaps Mother Shahraz in BTemple). Stacking stamina allows you to take heavier hits with less chance to die (i.e. a tauren decked out with 12 sta gems can have ~1500-2000 more hp than a tauren stacking avoidance - that might allow the first tank to survive a normal hit followed by a crushing or elemental dmg like earthquake).
I am a surgeon, not a mathematician so I can not dig deep into math models however I value avoidance and mitigation over stamina to a certain point but it all comes down to the bond between the tank and his healers - some of them prefer to pump heals into a bigger life pool with less avoidance, others like it to be more mana efficient and use the forecast system. Me and my heal crew are using the latter and I've never died due to predictable dmg (enviromental, aoe, scripted etc.) however I've died a few times due to their raid frames lagging with a second or two which resulted in a period of 5-6 seconds with heals being canceled instead of landing on me combined with no avoided hits and me dead as a result, while their mana bar was full after 10 mins of bossfight.
...and I shall never find Solace for I was born Restless...
Highfather i have a question on this one. how much avoidance do you get from outside buffs/debuffs? 15%?!
I am using the Tank Points addon calculator to easy view my avoidance stats (passive block % included). With absolutely no buffs I have 84,80 % combined miss/dodge/parry/block, while raid buffed it goes above 100% mostly due to dodge increase (flask, agi pot, mastery elixir, agi totem, agi food, kings, not counting the Mongoose proc - all of these buffs make the avoidance+block go over 95% passive, the druid insect debuff or the hunter scorpid sting make up for the last few %). Since I've reached that kind of avoidance+block I stopped using shield block ability in order to test and I do not get crushed (using Recap for parsing). If that is of any interest - I have over 18k hp while buffed that way, reacing 19k if I use 30sta food food instead of agi food (+ black rum ofc).
Short answer ~10% avoidance (mostly dodge) comes from buffs. Cba to log in and buff up just to refresh my memory but that can be done if needed (also provide parsing).
However I rarely use agi totem/food except for testing avoidance vs bosses on farm status so during normal raids my passive avoidance+block is ~91% (by passive I mean without any enchat/item procs).
...and I shall never find Solace for I was born Restless...
All red sockets are Shifting Shadowsong Amethyst. All blue and yellow sockets are Enduring Seaspray Emeralds. Socket rules are obeyed 100% of the time. Enchants are as follows:
Head: Glyph of the Defender
Shoulder: Greater Inscription of Warding
Back: Enchant Cloak - Dodge
Chest: Enchant Chest - Exceptional Health
Wrist: Enchant Bracer - Fortitude
Hands: Enchant Gloves - Superior Agility
Legs: Nethercleft Leg Armor
Feet: Enchant Boots - Fortitude
Weapon: Enchant Weapon - Agility
Shield: Enchant Shield - Major Stamina
The following buffs/debuffs are also assumed:
Improved Mark of the Wild
Improved Power Word: Fortitude
Improved Blood Pact
Improved Grace of Air Totem
Improved Devotion Aura
Blessing of Kings
Spicy Crawdad
Flask of Fortification
Scorpid Sting
That should net you the following stats with a normal full Protection build:
20200 Health
18502 Armor
63.67% Damage Reduction
17.72% to be Missed
35.18% to Dodge
21.37% to Parry
28.48% to Block
So that's a grand total of 102.75% avoidance against a level 70 target. Given that against a level 73 target you need a combined total of 102.4% to completely push off crushing blows, the target is reachable without the use of Shield Block.
Warbringer Greathelm (8 dodge, 8 defense) KoT enchant
Steam Hinge Chain of Valor
Warbringer Shoulderguards (8 dodge, 8 defense) Scryers enchant
Ironscale War Cloak w/enchant cloak: dodge
Warbringer Chestguard (8 dodge, 8 defense, 8 defense) +6 stats
Bracers of the Green Fortress w/+12 defense
Destroyer Handguards v2.1 w/15 agi
Crimson Girdle of the Indom (8 dodge, 8 defense)
Destroyer Legguards v2.1 w/ZG enchant
Boots of Elusion w/11 agi
Andormu's Tear
Seventh Ring of the Tirisfalen v2.1
Scarab of Displacement v2.1
Figurine of the Colossus
The Sun Eater w/15 agi
Shield of the Wayward Footman w/15 block rating
Barrel Blade Longrifle (8 defense, 8 defense)
The numbers worked out for me to be:
143 agility (using 30 agi = 1% dodge, this is 4.76% dodge)
184 dodge rating (using 18.9 dodge rating = 1% dodge, this is 9.73% dodge)
3 parry rating
244 block rating (using 7.9 block rating = 1% block, this is 30.88% block)
384 defense rating (which was 160 defense, which worked out with Anticipation to be 7.2% dodge, parry, block and -7.2% enemy hit)
Combine with Anticipation, Deflection (5% parry) and Shield Specialization (5% block), and 5% dodge/parry/block base... I got 103.6742% avoidance. This is achievable in 2.1 using gear entirely obtainable from Karazhan, Gruul's and SSC and I didn't even factor in buffs of any sort.
I can only imagine i've gone wrong with the math somewhere....
I dont see a point going on with the "premade" gear that on theory makes you passively immune to crushing blows - it has already been proven on practice that such gear set can be obtained.
The big question in my mind is - is it really that benefitial to be passively crush immune?
From one point of view it saves you the rage to spam shield block skill (and even 1 talent point) but at the same time such gear will hinder your rage gained from hits landed on you and if you have crappy healers the not so big life pool will be your undoing (although the difference is less than 2k hp which is marginal for a tank).
From another point of view if such gear is hindering you and being crush immune is not what the developers had in mind for warriors then what the hell is the use of "shield block rating" on items? Raid gear has quite some item budget spent on block rating and its obvious that this is the easiest (and best) way to reach the crush immunity and at the same time to not sacrifice too much for pure avoidance (dodge mostly) including lower risk for rage starved periods due to no hits taken.
As I said in a previous post when it comes to the avoidance/stamina dilema its more of a personal choice since the base stats of raid gear ensure that you have enough hit points and mitigation to survive X amount of time without heals (few seconds usually) which should be enough for a heal to land. However that does not answer the question "what is the use of shield block rating on items" - is it intended for warriors to be able to push it to the point of being crush immune (of course as a trade off) or we see yet another flaw in the game design (remember the 33% def nerf on all items)?
Share your view on this matter.
...and I shall never find Solace for I was born Restless...
Well I would answer that with a question: what is the intended purpose of Shield Block? I stated it in the Tankadin theorycraft thread, but I really don't think the whole mechanics of Crushing Blows and pushing them off with Shield Block was thought out or thought through - it seems like it happened by accident.
Block rating is a valuable stat by accident, because in one way the mitigation it offers is inferior - shaving 300 damage off a 6k hit is very minor - but preventing that 6k hit from critting or crushing is priceless. Except, us warriors all have a baseline skill that grants us 75% blocking, making crush immune virtually naked.
I think blocking was originally intended to be something it ended up not really being because of CB's, and the value of block rating reflects that. (Similarly, the 30% value of Holy Shield.)
the mitigation it offers is inferior - shaving 300 damage off a 6k hit is very minor
On the contrary - block amount is quite some mitigation on the long run. Back in the days when Satrina's Combat Monitor addon was working my block value helped me mitigate 6-9% of the damage taken during long boss fights in Naxxramas, even more in the lower tier dungeons. If you do the math you will need quite some armor to reduce 300 dmg from a 6k dmg hit (5%).
As for the other part of your statement - you might very well be right, something tell me that this will be yet another case of developer shortsight.
...and I shall never find Solace for I was born Restless...
02/15/07, 11:58 AM
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