Beat the 85 - Page 2

Daler · 04/24/07, 5:59 PM

Originally Posted by Highfather

However here comes the question - what is better - more sta or more avoidance.(read blue gems here).

Is there any way to model the benefit/loss relationship between choosing one over the other, or is it really just a matter of personal preference?

Never played a tank, so please forgive my ignorance on the subject.

Highfather · 04/24/07, 6:22 PM

Originally Posted by Daler

Is there any way to model the benefit/loss relationship between choosing one over the other, or is it really just a matter of personal preference?

Never played a tank, so please forgive my ignorance on the subject.

Long story short - more avoidance makes the tank more mana efficient on the long run because you will take less hits for the duration of the fight. Another benefit of high avoidance is to prevent tank deaths due to crushing blows especially when facing dual wielding mobs - their fast hits combined with the Trash ability and the Parry "haste" bonus can make a short work of any tank lacking avoidance (i.e. Prince in Karazhan, perhaps Mother Shahraz in BTemple). Stacking stamina allows you to take heavier hits with less chance to die (i.e. a tauren decked out with 12 sta gems can have ~1500-2000 more hp than a tauren stacking avoidance - that might allow the first tank to survive a normal hit followed by a crushing or elemental dmg like earthquake).

I am a surgeon, not a mathematician so I can not dig deep into math models however I value avoidance and mitigation over stamina to a certain point but it all comes down to the bond between the tank and his healers - some of them prefer to pump heals into a bigger life pool with less avoidance, others like it to be more mana efficient and use the forecast system. Me and my heal crew are using the latter and I've never died due to predictable dmg (enviromental, aoe, scripted etc.) however I've died a few times due to their raid frames lagging with a second or two which resulted in a period of 5-6 seconds with heals being canceled instead of landing on me combined with no avoided hits and me dead as a result, while their mana bar was full after 10 mins of bossfight.

zork · 04/25/07, 3:59 AM

Highfather i have a question on this one. how much avoidance do you get from outside buffs/debuffs? 15%?!

to bad dwarfs got no +5% hp bonus

Highfather · 04/25/07, 8:46 AM

Originally Posted by zork

Highfather i have a question on this one. how much avoidance do you get from outside buffs/debuffs? 15%?!

I am using the Tank Points addon calculator to easy view my avoidance stats (passive block % included). With absolutely no buffs I have 84,80 % combined miss/dodge/parry/block, while raid buffed it goes above 100% mostly due to dodge increase (flask, agi pot, mastery elixir, agi totem, agi food, kings, not counting the Mongoose proc - all of these buffs make the avoidance+block go over 95% passive, the druid insect debuff or the hunter scorpid sting make up for the last few %). Since I've reached that kind of avoidance+block I stopped using shield block ability in order to test and I do not get crushed (using Recap for parsing). If that is of any interest - I have over 18k hp while buffed that way, reacing 19k if I use 30sta food food instead of agi food (+ black rum ofc).

Short answer ~10% avoidance (mostly dodge) comes from buffs. Cba to log in and buff up just to refresh my memory but that can be done if needed (also provide parsing).

However I rarely use agi totem/food except for testing avoidance vs bosses on farm status so during normal raids my passive avoidance+block is ~91% (by passive I mean without any enchat/item procs).

Theras · 04/26/07, 3:47 AM

Here's my gear list:

Head: Onslaught Greathelm
Neck: Frayed Tether of the Drowned
Shoulder: Onslaught Shoulderguards
Back: Phoenix-wing Cloak
Chest: Onslaught Chestguard
Wrist: Eternium Shell Bracers
Hands: Onslaught Handguards
Waist: Girdle of the Invulnerable
Legs: Onslaught Legguards
Feet: Tide-stomper's Greaves
Ring: Violet Signet of the Great Protector
Ring: Ring of Sundered Souls
Trinket: Moroes' Lucky Pocket Watch
Trinket: Scarab of Displacement
Weapon: Mallet of the Tides
Shield: Aldori Legacy Defender
Range: Barrel-Blade Longrifle

All red sockets are Shifting Shadowsong Amethyst. All blue and yellow sockets are Enduring Seaspray Emeralds. Socket rules are obeyed 100% of the time. Enchants are as follows:

Head: Glyph of the Defender
Shoulder: Greater Inscription of Warding
Back: Enchant Cloak - Dodge
Chest: Enchant Chest - Exceptional Health
Wrist: Enchant Bracer - Fortitude
Hands: Enchant Gloves - Superior Agility
Legs: Nethercleft Leg Armor
Feet: Enchant Boots - Fortitude
Weapon: Enchant Weapon - Agility
Shield: Enchant Shield - Major Stamina

The following buffs/debuffs are also assumed:

Improved Mark of the Wild
Improved Power Word: Fortitude
Improved Blood Pact
Improved Grace of Air Totem
Improved Devotion Aura
Blessing of Kings
Spicy Crawdad
Flask of Fortification
Scorpid Sting

That should net you the following stats with a normal full Protection build:

20200 Health
18502 Armor
63.67% Damage Reduction
17.72% to be Missed
35.18% to Dodge
21.37% to Parry
28.48% to Block

So that's a grand total of 102.75% avoidance against a level 70 target. Given that against a level 73 target you need a combined total of 102.4% to completely push off crushing blows, the target is reachable without the use of Shield Block.

Eat your heart out, Protection Paladins.

Charsi · 05/02/07, 2:48 PM

Help..?

I came up with my own list. Here it is:

Warbringer Greathelm (8 dodge, 8 defense) KoT enchant
Steam Hinge Chain of Valor
Warbringer Shoulderguards (8 dodge, 8 defense) Scryers enchant
Ironscale War Cloak w/enchant cloak: dodge
Warbringer Chestguard (8 dodge, 8 defense, 8 defense) +6 stats
Bracers of the Green Fortress w/+12 defense
Destroyer Handguards v2.1 w/15 agi
Crimson Girdle of the Indom (8 dodge, 8 defense)
Destroyer Legguards v2.1 w/ZG enchant
Boots of Elusion w/11 agi
Andormu's Tear
Seventh Ring of the Tirisfalen v2.1
Scarab of Displacement v2.1
Figurine of the Colossus
The Sun Eater w/15 agi
Shield of the Wayward Footman w/15 block rating
Barrel Blade Longrifle (8 defense, 8 defense)

The numbers worked out for me to be:

143 agility (using 30 agi = 1% dodge, this is 4.76% dodge)
184 dodge rating (using 18.9 dodge rating = 1% dodge, this is 9.73% dodge)
3 parry rating
244 block rating (using 7.9 block rating = 1% block, this is 30.88% block)
384 defense rating (which was 160 defense, which worked out with Anticipation to be 7.2% dodge, parry, block and -7.2% enemy hit)

Combine with Anticipation, Deflection (5% parry) and Shield Specialization (5% block), and 5% dodge/parry/block base... I got 103.6742% avoidance. This is achievable in 2.1 using gear entirely obtainable from Karazhan, Gruul's and SSC and I didn't even factor in buffs of any sort.

I can only imagine i've gone wrong with the math somewhere....

Highfather · 05/02/07, 3:11 PM

I dont see a point going on with the "premade" gear that on theory makes you passively immune to crushing blows - it has already been proven on practice that such gear set can be obtained.

The big question in my mind is - is it really that benefitial to be passively crush immune?

From one point of view it saves you the rage to spam shield block skill (and even 1 talent point) but at the same time such gear will hinder your rage gained from hits landed on you and if you have crappy healers the not so big life pool will be your undoing (although the difference is less than 2k hp which is marginal for a tank).

From another point of view if such gear is hindering you and being crush immune is not what the developers had in mind for warriors then what the hell is the use of "shield block rating" on items? Raid gear has quite some item budget spent on block rating and its obvious that this is the easiest (and best) way to reach the crush immunity and at the same time to not sacrifice too much for pure avoidance (dodge mostly) including lower risk for rage starved periods due to no hits taken.

As I said in a previous post when it comes to the avoidance/stamina dilema its more of a personal choice since the base stats of raid gear ensure that you have enough hit points and mitigation to survive X amount of time without heals (few seconds usually) which should be enough for a heal to land. However that does not answer the question "what is the use of shield block rating on items" - is it intended for warriors to be able to push it to the point of being crush immune (of course as a trade off) or we see yet another flaw in the game design (remember the 33% def nerf on all items)?

Share your view on this matter.

Charsi · 05/02/07, 3:22 PM

Well I would answer that with a question: what is the intended purpose of Shield Block? I stated it in the Tankadin theorycraft thread, but I really don't think the whole mechanics of Crushing Blows and pushing them off with Shield Block was thought out or thought through - it seems like it happened by accident.

Block rating is a valuable stat by accident, because in one way the mitigation it offers is inferior - shaving 300 damage off a 6k hit is very minor - but preventing that 6k hit from critting or crushing is priceless. Except, us warriors all have a baseline skill that grants us 75% blocking, making crush immune virtually naked.

I think blocking was originally intended to be something it ended up not really being because of CB's, and the value of block rating reflects that. (Similarly, the 30% value of Holy Shield.)

Highfather · 05/02/07, 3:47 PM

Originally Posted by Charsi

the mitigation it offers is inferior - shaving 300 damage off a 6k hit is very minor

On the contrary - block amount is quite some mitigation on the long run. Back in the days when Satrina's Combat Monitor addon was working my block value helped me mitigate 6-9% of the damage taken during long boss fights in Naxxramas, even more in the lower tier dungeons. If you do the math you will need quite some armor to reduce 300 dmg from a 6k dmg hit (5%).

As for the other part of your statement - you might very well be right, something tell me that this will be yet another case of developer shortsight.

Charsi · 05/02/07, 3:51 PM

I only meant minor in comparison to parrying or dodging the entirety of the damage

Darkmgl · 05/02/07, 4:02 PM

I'm sure originally blocking was just supposed to be additional mitigation, and as said the crushing blows thing was a side effect. It just happened to work out in a way that they were able to manipulate into a raid tanking mechanic; they've left it in for so long now that it would be class breaking to remove. Its all just speculation of course, but they seem to be using it in a positive way now.

Looking at T5 and especially T6 you should be forgetting this 85% number, aim for closer to 100%. I'm betting it is very possible to hit full crushing blow immunity without shield block in a full set of T5+ with approriate jewelry and trinkets. Even just looking at warriors in 2-3 pieces with a styleens they are looking at 33%+ shield block, that just leaves 67% to be covered in dodge/parry/miss, would be fun to play around with a crush immune tank!

Just for kicks: http://ctprofiles.net/5331728

34.37% block
23.04% dodge
16.46% parry
+509 Defense which I think is 5.6% + .04 * 159 = 11.96% miss?

So right there you've got 86% before Grace of Air, Mongoose, Scorpid Sting, Insect Swarm, Blessing of Kings, or anything else that further increases avoidance.... You can bust 100% easily. This is also rounded gear, over 13,000 hps and over 14,000 armor makes me think you can actually tank raidbosses like this and just sit there without using shield block.... You could hit 100% unbuffed if you skimp your hps but it isn't practical. Someone should do this with Tier 6 and see what they can get.

EDIT: The combined T6 difference in this particular set is + 43 defense rating (17 Defense, .68% block, dodge, parry, miss), +22 block rating (2.75% block), +52 parry rating (2.3% on new formula), -6 agility (-.2% dodge) and +1 dodge rating (+.05% dodge?) So Tier 6 would make the total avoidance 93.32 on this set I believe.

Highfather · 05/02/07, 5:34 PM

Originally Posted by Darkmgl

This is also rounded gear, over 13,000 hps and over 14,000 armor makes me think you can actually tank raidbosses like this and just sit there without using shield block....

I already do that on practice. The only downside are the long strings of no hits on you thus low rage generation, 19k hp raidbuffed is enough for my healers (unless they fall asleep during the sometimes 30-40seconds long breaks in dmg flow on me). While tanking I usually dont notice these breaks in the dmg flow but on a few of our guild movies I saw my hp bar not moving for over a minute(whole duration of the magtheridon blast nova cooldown) for a few times and that got me worried a bit:P

Bluefish · 05/02/07, 5:46 PM

Are you uncrushable with buffs/debuffs factored in, Highfather?

Highfather · 05/02/07, 8:04 PM

Originally Posted by Bluefish

Are you uncrushable with buffs/debuffs factored in, Highfather?

Buffs/Debuffs all the way, prior T6 its hard if not impossible to achieve passive crush immunity without gimping your overall stats too much (i.e. stamina). As I said in a previous post I swap buffs just for the sake of testing, usually I am using WF totem instead of agi one and sta food over agi food(etc etc.) so I sit at ~90% avoidance+block and still use my block skill wisely. In the not so distant future however passive crush immunity will be achievable without using buffs gimping your threat or sacrificing too much sta (even debuffs like scorpid sting) so I am asking myself if the trade off at that point will be worth it and even seen by the developers as a path that the player can choose(with all their talent/gear fiasko that is supposed to give you several options instead of being a cookie cutter as we used to).

zork · 06/29/07, 12:25 PM

I just finished my new excel sheet.

You can download it here:
http://dm.next-gen.org/upload/warrior_avoidance.xls

With the introduction of tier6 items it is possible to get more than 105% "avoidance" containing enemy miss+parry+dodge+block.

You can get much higher though if you keep stacking avoidance gems. Stacking block rating is a plus, you won't be crushed on the one hand but still get rage from getting hit and blocking.

Avoiding to much damage can lead into some serious rage- /threat-generation problems.