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Old 02/23/07, 7:19 PM   #16
Tristanian
Dreamwalker
 
Night Elf Druid
 
Kor'gall (EU)
I've been specced 34/0/27 since the moment we got our second free respec and never looked back ever since. The synergy between NG, Moonglow, Guidance, Dreamstate and Intensity/Swiftness is simply amazing and unsurpassed when it come to single-target spike damage healing (which is the direction endgame content seems to be moving). Your spells will cost less mana, they will be faster on occasion (especially combined with haste trinkets) and focusing on pure healing/regen can easily bring ht 4 back to its former glory, assuming you are standing above 1200-1300 healing.

Fully buffed/potted i'm sitting at more than 150 mp5 which makes mana more or less not an issue on 5 mans except heroics. Definetely a very viable raiding spec and the best thing of all, it doesn't gimp your soloing/grinding ability to the same extend that a full resto build (or at least a 31+) would do, that is ofc depending on playstyle and gear.

Improved FF while good and viable isn't really a necessity assuming your guildmates are properly geared, you are way better off spending the points elsewhere if you intend to go for a hybrid build.

Last edited by Tristanian : 02/23/07 at 7:33 PM.

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Old 02/23/07, 7:24 PM   #17
Mencius
Von Kaiser
 
Night Elf Druid
 
Dunemaul
I like being a tree druid and I found that I could easily heal all the fights that the OP talked about, given the rest of the healing team was doing their job as well.

However, always looking to maximize my healing this thread is great.

One thing I thought about was the tree aura. 25% of my spirit is about 120 +healing to all incoming spells on the 5 people in my group by all healers, even out of group healers.

Is the efficientcy that you would gain from speccing out of tree form comparable to the overall loss of healing via the aura, over the course of a raid, assuming that your other healers are doing their job well?

In my mind, at least without math to prove this theory, I basically see speccing out of tree aura and into a HT spec is putting the burden of direct healing more on the druids in the a raid and making you more like a pally and a priest.

Now, if the effectiveness of the HT spec was such that it was worth making the change than by all means, I'd do it.

I guess it'll require a little investigaion on my part to see how much healing by other healers would be lost of the course of a raid when you lose the aura.

If they were about equal, that is... the healing lost by other healers would be gained by the druid, than you would basically just be putting more responsibility on yourself to heal a larger portion of the raid.

Sort of just spitballing here.

EDIT: Nevermind, I just run some numbers here and the aura is fucking worthless. Wow, the HoT stacking and mana cost reduction are the only reason to be a tree druid. I'll be respeccing tonight and let you guys know how it goes this week in Karazhan and our Gruul learning runs.

Actually, now that I think back to the days when we didn't have Tree form how much more fun healing was. The loss of utility in tree form just doesn't seem worth it anymore. I knew something didn't feel right...

Last edited by Mencius : 02/23/07 at 7:30 PM.

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Old 02/23/07, 7:50 PM   #18
Tristanian
Dreamwalker
 
Night Elf Druid
 
Kor'gall (EU)
The aura of the Tree is good since it affects all healing effects (even from people NOT in your group) and you cannot possibly compensate for it via directly healing. BUT (there is a huge 'but' in here). Almost every other aspect of the Tree form is so limiting that it gimps the druid himself up to the point where not only actual utility is lost (in the terms of mobility - hello Gruul ground slam, decurse, depoison, CR, HT), but the so called stacked healing via hots and the occasional swiftmend isn't actually helping to the extend that is expected by the more demanding content, in its current incantation.

Don't get me wrong, hots are good, but that doesn't mean that they don't have their limitations. Direct Heals are more accurate than Heals over Time, in the presence of uncontrollable factors, even post downranking nerf. These factors include other healers using alternate heal styles and random incoming damage to your heal target. Patchwerk used to be a good example of this, I guess now nearly any boss capable of huge spikes can be used an example (eg Nightbane, Gruul). Things such as crushing, criticals and thrashes make heals over time actually heal more effectively but they lack the magnitude to heal the target accurately, that is to say return the target's health to a reasonable amount in a timely fashion, before he gets the next damage spike that will kill him.

Swiftmend fixes this weakness in HoT healing for the most part, but with a 15 second cooldown, there is only so much it can do. Most clever Swiftmenders (HoT specced druids) use it as a way to spot heal the raid while maintaining direct heals on the primary tank and other targets as needed rather than a way to spam rejuvenation/lifebloom across the raid and react to a spike. This is simply a heal difference, but for the most part relying on spammed hots to provide real effective healing is foolhearty and reliant on the rest of your healteam to ignore damage as it arrives on the raid. Other classes overhealing your hots and mana efficiency are also issues to consider.

I only have the experience of the current raid game, but heals over time lack heal accuracy in that they are unreliable for actually providing heals while consuming the full mana cost of the cast. It is this reason that using rank 4 (or maybe 5 post nerf depending on reaction time/incoming dmg) healing touch is generally superior to using whatever rank of rejuvenation (lifebloom has it way better if you stack it once). You get real results to your mana consumption and a way to avoid using the mana if it is unneeded. Cast abortion is a very powerful tool for healing efficiently, and something you do not get with HoTs. Perhaps a shorter Swiftmend cd would remedy the problem to some extend.

Unfortunately Blizzard has envisioned the restoration druid as more of a HoT/support healer (there are 3 talents that focus almost purely on hots) rather than a direct healer. This ofc does not disprove of a viable direct healing strategy but due to the long casting times and mana inefficiency on specs, a balance/resto druid has significant advantages when it comes down to ht healing than a pure resto one. Just my 2 copper.

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Old 02/23/07, 8:43 PM   #19
Playered
Soda Popinski
 
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Tauren Druid
 
Twisting Nether (EU)
I just still cannot fathom while Abolish Poison / Remove Curse is only available in caster form, when each could be suitably used in their respective forms (Poison = Tree / Curse = Moonkin) which would atleast provide them with abit more utility and use within raids other than a really limited niche spec, heck Priests can use PW:Shield in Shadowform ffs.

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Old 02/23/07, 9:57 PM   #20
 Lrigatonmai
owns a cowbell irl
 
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Tauren Druid
 
Mal'Ganis
Originally Posted by Playered View Post
To be fair there are/should not be many issues of hunters or rogues having a lack of +hit, the only real gain would be to feral druids and dw warriors, neither of which are of such an importance/quantity that would require you to spec to help them.

If they made it also work for spells (Which would also help the BALANCE druid side) however...
Rogues are going to gain from the +hit until the next round of gear plateaus. They have the same DW penalty as warriors (24% against equal level mobs).

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Old 02/23/07, 10:04 PM   #21
Playered
Soda Popinski
 
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Tauren Druid
 
Twisting Nether (EU)
Yes but really once you hit around 18% hit theres really not many noticable benefit to having more over crit or other stats, and with the current void of crit itemization in lue of hit I highly doubt it will be hard to reach that level.

And honestly the next round of gear plateau will simply be existing gear with a random mix of [+1 Agil, Hit Rating, Crit Rating, +2 AP, +2 Sta] on them coupled with a different colour socket and perhaps a small upgrade on the socket bonus

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Old 02/24/07, 7:16 AM   #22
Boevis
Bald Bull
 
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Tauren Druid
 
Lightbringer
3% Hit is worth less than 2% Crit for almost every class in the game, I think shadow priests and affliction locks are the only exception and they are casters, that's why it's itemized cheaper per %. Is it still good? Absolutely, I know tanks love actually landing their big threat abilities on the pull, rogues and DW warriors can always use a bit more hit.

It's just not worth taking in a healing build over Empowered Touch. Even Dreamstate and Moonfury just seem like selfish talents compared to Imp Rejuv, Swiftmend, and Living Spirit. I'm aware not everyone can spend the time/money to drink Mana Potions like candy on boss fights, but 10% more spirit makes a big difference when you innervate yourself and the usefulness of swiftmend is unquestionable. If you really want to talk consumables, ask a hunter how many potions they drink per fight (mine at least, use Agi, AP, Mastery, Mageblood, Mana Oils, and drink mana pots as often as my healers do)

If Imp FF is something you are seriously considering and want in a raid ... get a moonkin for ranged DPS. The boost to DPS they provide from IS, iFF, and their Aura is rather immense.

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Old 02/27/07, 6:24 PM   #23
Monsanto
Don Flamenco
 
Tauren Druid
 
Mug'thol
Now that I've been raiding for ~3 weeks or so, and doing heroic 5 mans the rest of the time, here are my thoughts:

HoTs seem extremely weak in the face of many, many mobs (including trash) hitting for several thousand damage. It seems to me that in WoW 1.0 Patchwerk was this one-of-a-kind encounter, but in WoW 2.0 it seems that the Patchwerk model is what they went with for a great deal of encounters.

Another observation, and this may be just my guild, but I've found that the immediate solution to AoE damage to the raid is..... shadow priests, not HoTs. I know that vampiric embrace is getting nerfed a bit, but I think it will still remain as a great way of dealing with AoE damage. Chain healing, by shaman, seems to be another excellent choice, as it has for a while.

Because I feel that HoTs are ill-suited to handle most of the content, and that other methods to deal with AoE damage have evolved, I believe that a HT spec is superior to a HoT spec for raiding.

On a similar topic, here is another reason I like the HT spec. When I look at gear upgrades, I only see marginal improvements to mp5 gear. But what I do see, are massive upgrades to pure stats, like INT or SPI. Having lots of raw INT synergizes well with two of the balance talents in the HT build, giving you more +healing and more mp5. The same goes for SPI if you tip your hybrid more to the resto side, and pick up the 15% more spirit talent. If the above paragraph seemed rambling to you, my point is that due to talents, the HT spec seems to get more out of the type of gear Blizzard has added to the expansion.


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Old 02/27/07, 7:50 PM   #24
 Lorewanderer
Moof.
 
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Lorewanderer
Tauren Druid
 
No WoW Account
I've been looking at gear now for healing and have decided (particualarly coming from my EQ Cleric healing background) that I'll be going 34/27 HT spec. My (very small) guild has a good paladin who is interested in tanking and we're short on healers. I'm not sure what we'll be doing when the nerfbat swings at the paladin tank-- we don't have a single warrior at the moment, let alone one who wants to tank. Let's hope that takes a while.

Now my question is about healing gear and what I should be after. I'm using HealPoints now to help make some generalized decisions, but I like to be able to play with the weighting myself as I find my own healing groove.

Does anyone have a good weighting for Pawn (discussed in another thread) or a suggestion of where to start?

My current (rough) heal stats with 34/0/27, MotW as the only buff
390 int
240 spi
88 mp5 within the 5sr
+700 heal
(Yeah, I'm working on improving it.)

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Old 02/27/07, 8:07 PM   #25
Playered
Soda Popinski
 
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Tauren Druid
 
Twisting Nether (EU)
Your int seems ok, your spirit is not that great however its not too low.
+Healing seems significantly low (You should be able to get over 1k easily without heroics/raiding) with only 600 from your gear.
MP5 also seems quite low and if my brief look is correct it seems about only 20MP5 on your gear (30~ Spirit, 39 Int).

Without seeing a listing of your gear its hard to say, however the most likely thing to do is take some of the many good cloth pieces that drop.
Setthek Halls, Botanica, Mechanar, Sha'tar rep... should provide you with some pretty good gear.

Just dont undervalue spirit, as a HT spec you will spend some fair time outside the 5sec rule and thus get a hefty chunk of regen from that, aswell as Innervate etc.

Also get yourself one of the maces from Shatterd Halls / Mechanar + offhand from http://www.wowhead.com/?quest=10804 questline

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Old 02/28/07, 12:10 AM   #26
Boevis
Bald Bull
 
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Tauren Druid
 
Lightbringer
I loathe point systems for healing unless they are specifically designed for your class and take into account (or allow) raid buffs. Usually once you pass 200 healing or 20 mp5 above/below where they were designed, they fall apart.

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Old 03/23/07, 6:04 AM   #27
Solstice
Piston Honda
 
Night Elf Druid
 
Sylvanas (EU)
Originally Posted by Boevis View Post
3% Hit is worth less than 2% Crit for almost every class in the game, I think shadow priests and affliction locks are the only exception and they are casters, that's why it's itemized cheaper per %. Is it still good? Absolutely, I know tanks love actually landing their big threat abilities on the pull, rogues and DW warriors can always use a bit more hit.

If Imp FF is something you are seriously considering and want in a raid ... get a moonkin for ranged DPS. The boost to DPS they provide from IS, iFF, and their Aura is rather immense.
I agree that the +hit is fairly useful and would provide a reasonable dps increase for melee heavy raid setups. Nevertheless I cant justify having to to spec so deep into balance, and furthermore have to spend 3 points for such a mediocre talent. Particularly when you compare it to other t7 talents such as SM and LotP.

Overall I'd say that imp FF is not something any RL could seriously consider given the viability of moonkins in endgame PvE. A quick glance at this table shows that not only do Moonkins provide substantially less dps than any other caster (with the exception of elemental shamans) they also have by far the lowest DPM. Take the comparison with shadow priests for example, a moonkin would do 19% less dps for 45% less dpm. In terms of raid support, if faced with a choice between Moonkin aura, Imp FF and IS or VE, VT and misery, I know which I'd rather have.

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Old 03/23/07, 9:24 AM   #28
Narugh
Von Kaiser
 
Tauren Druid
 
Mazrigos (EU)
Do you people who HT heal in raids still downrank?

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Old 03/23/07, 9:35 AM   #29
Playered
Soda Popinski
 
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Tauren Druid
 
Twisting Nether (EU)
I just use R11 for my HT and try only really let it go off if the tank has a deficit higher than what a pally can spam heal off easily, more of a backup so to say. Never really had an encounter where mana has been a huge issue that consumables havent been able to make up for on this and it suits me rather well =p

But I suppose its down to your guilds healing style, we've always had paladins always spam healing the tanks the entire time so we've never needed to have another class downrank to achieve the same effect.

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Old 03/23/07, 9:41 AM   #30
Kretschmer
Von Kaiser
 
Undead Priest
 
Chromaggus
I've always been a HT user; the efficiency and precise nature of the spell is appealing. And - with the smaller sizes of today's raids - there's less of an issue of flash heals interrupting your efforts.

One question I do have: Do HoTs interact properly with overhealing meters? I always run into trees that brag about topping their respective meters, but it doesn't seem to make sense. The nature of Hots should counter the minor tree aura bonus and 20% efficiency edge. I also wish that guilds would step away from meters for healers, as it's possible to pump out a lot of healing without really contributing to keeping the tank up (i.e. babysitting the warlocks).

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