Omen - Ace Threat Meter - Page 10

Athinira · 06/03/07, 4:52 AM

Originally Posted by Antiarc

This isn't true for thorns, at least. I had a feral druid, 1.45 modifier, aggro a mob and let it reflect one tick of thorns for 25 damage. Unmodified, that's 25 threat; modified, it's 36.25 threat. I then had a mage melee the mob, and it pulled aggro at 40 damage, not at 28 damage like I would expect if it were unmodified threat.

Interesting, that wasn't the case back when i tested it during patch 1.11 (that was before the fix to threat modifiers in patch 1.12 though). Can you test this as well with, say, Retribution Aura for druids (aka. get a paladin in party with a druid, use ret aura, have the druid take some damage then test how much it takes to pull off)?

Demi9OD · 06/03/07, 5:05 AM

Originally Posted by Kyth

I was just crashing through mana tombs as alts, but soulshatter (the few times I used it) didn't seem to drop my threat in omen, though it did in KTM.

It should be a 50% threat dump. (against all enemies within 50 yards, but I know that's always going to be a guess.)

I've been updating pretty often and haven't seen this implemented yet either :-/

• giansm · 06/03/07, 5:25 AM

Originally Posted by Kyth

It should be a 50% threat dump. (against all enemies within 50 yards, but I know that's always going to be a guess.)

Actually the combat log looks like this when a warlock casts soulshatter:

5/22 18:07:43.011 Aquatic casts Soulshatter on Blindeye the Seer.
5/22 18:07:43.012 Aquatic's Soulshatter was resisted by Krosh Firehand.
5/22 18:07:43.013 Aquatic casts Soulshatter on Olm the Summoner.
5/22 18:07:43.014 Aquatic casts Soulshatter on Kiggler the Crazed.
5/22 18:07:43.015 Aquatic casts Soulshatter.

So you can tell which mobs threat was reduced on.

Dirich · 06/03/07, 9:05 AM

Originally Posted by Chicken

I was personally theorizing about displaying threat in a single bar for DPS classes.

Basically, the bar's 'max health' would be the threat of the person with highest aggro (+10%/30% depending on range to the target), with it's 'current health' being your threat (In other words, if you've got half the tank's threat, we have a half-full bar). Combine this with the bar changing color depending on how high your TPS is compared to the person with highest threat (green being lower, yellow about the same, red meaning you're steadily overtaking), that would probably be a very simple, intuitive threat speed-o-meter.

Any thoughts?

The idea is really good, because it saves space and gives almost all the info needed. But as other suggested there are cases in which it's needed to know who's going to pull aggro next. I.e. when someone takes aggro from the tank with this display it will not be possible to see if you are surpassing the tank aggro too. In the end a list of the top X is needed, and X may vary depending on how big is the difference between the threats. It seems that the optimal layout needs to be similar to the standard "meter-addon's" one.

Really nice work, my guild will adopt this because of the multiple aggro list feature. Even better if it's really as low cost (in resources) as it's been stated, because half my guild plays on old laptops.

alkis · 06/03/07, 9:46 AM

Originally Posted by Praetorian

That seems clunky. It really just boils down to a question of how much Blizzard wants to help the playerbase make mods like these.

I have no doubt that each mob has a unique identifier that isn't displayed but which is known serverside. If they wanted, they could make these unique IDs known to the client via an invisible combat log channel for use by addons, kind of like how they added invisible chat channels for addon communication. But I think that Blizzard may want to continue to obfuscate some elements like this.

Actually if they wanted to make these mods possible, the solution would be even simpler. Just give an API to spit out the treat table of each mob. I don't see why they just don't do that. KTM already exists and it is a very good approximation of that. Blizzard adding this would make everyone's life easier and writing a threat mod would become just UI design without the need of parsing/computing threat.

Of course the counter argument is what if they want to scrap the whole threat model one day? If they expose it now there is no going back later. Maybe a point against it, but I don't see how they can pull something like that off with so many millions of people already used to play and think under this threat/agro model.

Wobin · 06/03/07, 11:37 AM

Originally Posted by alkis

Of course the counter argument is what if they want to scrap the whole threat model one day? If they expose it now there is no going back later. Maybe a point against it, but I don't see how they can pull something like that off with so many millions of people already used to play and think under this threat/agro model.

Well no, I don't see why Blizzard couldn't rewrite the whole threat model. As long as the results were a logical balance and understandable (from a black box perspective) then they could change whatever they like. All it would entail is people learning anew how to handle the way aggro is developed, and that's not particulary difficult given time. It would mean a whole lot of death right at the beginning, but as long as people were warned "In this patch we have rewritten the aggro model" then all we can do is adapt, as we have to every change in every patch =)

Just because they might expose the current system to the API doesn't mean they can't change their mind.

Caryna · 06/03/07, 11:48 AM

I really like Omen (and not just because I can be lazy and update it using WAU). I only have some request for layout options:

1. toggle header text (Omen - target name) on/off
2. toggle footer text (version info) on/off (do I really need to see that?)
3. scaling of the frame (if I use Visor the border doesn't grow with the list)
4. hide when out of combat or not having a hostile target
5. toggle TPS display (not something I am concerned about)
6. change threat bar texture

This should be some trivial to implement options and would make it much easier to implement the addon in my UI.

Antiarc · 06/03/07, 4:38 PM

Originally Posted by Caryna

I really like Omen (and not just because I can be lazy and update it using WAU). I only have some request for layout options:

1. toggle header text (Omen - target name) on/off

Shouldn't be a problem

2. toggle footer text (version info) on/off (do I really need to see that?)

That's more for me right now, so I have that info in error report screenshots and people can easily tell me what revision they're using

3. scaling of the frame (if I use Visor the border doesn't grow with the list)

Will be doing.

4. hide when out of combat or not having a hostile target

Will be doing.

5. toggle TPS display (not something I am concerned about)

Will be doing.

6. change threat bar texture

Will be doing.

Nemaa · 06/03/07, 6:56 PM

I'm testing Omen in 25man raids and something is wrong with receiving information from KTM. Some people changed to omen but there are sill a lot of us using only KTM. I use both. There are trashmobs with different names and I always have a high threat on the second which I didn't even hit. Also I'd like to ask why does omen reset the threatlist when someone resets KTM?

Is it possible to have an option for retaining the last targeted mob's threat list (if i clear my target)? So the bars do not disappear when I clear my target.

Athinira · 06/03/07, 7:43 PM

Originally Posted by alkis

Actually if they wanted to make these mods possible, the solution would be even simpler. Just give an API to spit out the treat table of each mob. I don't see why they just don't do that. KTM already exists and it is a very good approximation of that. Blizzard adding this would make everyone's life easier and writing a threat mod would become just UI design without the need of parsing/computing threat.

Of course the counter argument is what if they want to scrap the whole threat model one day? If they expose it now there is no going back later. Maybe a point against it, but I don't see how they can pull something like that off with so many millions of people already used to play and think under this threat/agro model.

Will never happen. Besides usual boss tactics, Blizzard consider threat management a part of almost every encounter, especially agro sensitive ones, and while we as players indeed do have a good deal of tools available to measure threat, there is no way they will server it to us on a silver plate.

Jayde · 06/03/07, 9:54 PM

This is probably a nearly useless report (I apologize) but figured I'd post it anyway... For whatever reason, Threat1.0 got packaged along with Pitbull recently and was running without me really knowing it last evening. Ended up tossing me an error in the Threat-1.0\ClassModules\Mage.lua in regard to 'invisTime' or something along those lines when I used Inviz in Shattered Halls Heroic.

Would have payed more attention if I had actually known I was running it and/or wasn't on a SH Heroic timer. But, seems like at least something is slightly amiss with it. I believe my cast/channel period was inturrupted by a mob when this happened.

Either way, I'm interested to see where this project goes. I'm not one who particularly cares about the performance issues of KTM, and have loved KTM for a long time... but always nice to have options.

Antiarc · 06/03/07, 10:27 PM

Invis should be fixed now, Jayde. I think ckknight is planning to show threat data on unit frames in Pitbull, which is why he externed it.

Moong · 06/04/07, 1:19 AM

Will boss-specific abilities, when they are implemented, be handled by Omen or Threat-1.0? With three different usable front-ends to Threat now, I'm just curious if I can avoid overlap by using only Violation or Recount for instance.

Antiarc · 06/04/07, 2:29 AM

Originally Posted by Moong

Will boss-specific abilities, when they are implemented, be handled by Omen or Threat-1.0? With three different usable front-ends to Threat now, I'm just curious if I can avoid overlap by using only Violation or Recount for instance.

Threat-1.0. All the front-ends have to do is display the calculated threat.

cocidius · 06/04/07, 4:28 AM

So does omen sync with ktm atm? I haven't updated it in a few days.

sp00n · 06/04/07, 5:20 AM

Some idea that I wished I had yesterday during our raid using KTM.
Maybe Omen could make a snapshout of the current aggro table when somebody / only you is drawing aggro (of curse there should be an option for this, because for tanks it would be rather useless).
Afterwards you could look at that snapshot and see if you really were over the 110%/130% mark when drawing aggro.

Reason I come up with this, yesterday me and seconds later a paladin drew aggro on Hydross and died, and the paladin swore that we were around 5th and 6th on KTM before this happened. Unfortunately, I really didn't look at KTM before drawing aggro, so that could have been a misunderstanding. But seriously, I have never ever seen a paladin get aggro on a boss mob. And no, this was not during a phase change, Hydross didn't even move an inch.

If this option is already present, or KTM already does support this, forgive my ignorance. :x

banaj · 06/04/07, 5:23 AM

Been using omen for some time now and i agree with some of the options caryna put forward, but i see you're working on those already.

I wondered about something yesterday while being on kael.
At the start i saw the threat on each individual add and it was really nice and handy.
After a while someone had set ktm to the last add cause that was the most important one and ktm can't decide what threat to show on each target like omen.

Now i couldn't see the threat anymore on the adds except the last one.
Is this cause omen is secretly set to a mastertarget as well?
Or is it cause the ktm users don't send threat info anymore so omen can't pick it up?

If it's the first is there a method to turn off the mastertarget or at least show it in omen?

If it's the second can you force to get the info anyway?

Thanks for your work so far, works good already and can't wait for the improvements.

Elhana · 06/04/07, 5:44 AM

Originally Posted by banaj

Or is it cause the ktm users don't send threat info anymore so omen can't pick it up?

This one and the only thing Threat can do about it is to apply KTM data to mastertarget only

Elhana · 06/04/07, 6:04 AM

Originally Posted by sp00n

Reason I come up with this, yesterday me and seconds later a paladin drew aggro on Hydross and died, and the paladin swore that we were around 5th and 6th on KTM before this happened. Unfortunately, I really didn't look at KTM before drawing aggro, so that could have been a misunderstanding. But seriously, I have never ever seen a paladin get aggro on a boss mob. And no, this was not during a phase change, Hydross didn't even move an inch.

Hydross resets his threat list on every phase shift
mastertarget = hydross and threat was reset on each phase shift, right?

Paladin landing his crit heal on you being taking huge hits by Hydross right on threat drop + tank missing something might cause this

Ammo · 06/04/07, 7:02 AM

Originally Posted by Elhana

This one and the only thing Threat can do about it is to apply KTM data to mastertarget only

Currently Threat-1.0 applies threat received from KTM comm in the following way:

1. if KTM has a mastertarget set -> apply the received threat to that target in Threat-1.0 list.
2. if KTM has no mastertarget set -> apply the received threat to the GLOBAL threat.

That's all we've put in atm.

Ofcourse we listen to the target and cleartarget messages to determine the mastertarget.

A current issue indicated by a FIXME in the code is the usage of the mobtranslation table. In a multilingual raid it can go wrong (people using enGB and deDE clients in the same raid).

-Ammo

sp00n · 06/04/07, 8:18 AM

Originally Posted by Elhana

Hydross resets his threat list on every phase shift
mastertarget = hydross and threat was reset on each phase shift, right?

Paladin landing his imba heal on you being pwned by Hydross right on threat drop + tank missing something might cause this

And no, this was not during a phase change, Hydross didn't even move an inch.

Additionally the paladin was meleeing Hydross at that time, the MT healing was done by others.

banaj · 06/04/07, 11:03 AM

Just downloaded the latest version with added gfx options, really nice work.

I wondered if you could add a 'grow up' option to the bars.
Usually i just dump these kind of addons at the bottom of my screen to save some space when there are just a few bars etc

dr_AllCOM3 · 06/04/07, 11:42 AM

It's kinda hard to see your own bar. Can you make the player red and the aggrogain blue please? Those little markers aren't that good, should be something inside the window.

Cel · 06/04/07, 11:45 AM

Originally Posted by dr_AllCOM3

It's kinda hard to see your own bar. Can you make the player red and the aggrogain blue please? Those little markers aren't that good, should be something inside the window.

I know at least for me, colors are not the best indicator of which little bar I am when there are many different colors already. I would love a feature that would allow me to format the player bar exclusive to the rest of the bars. ie: I could make my bar use a different surface, be a different size (vertical or even just have it extend a few pixels off the one side of the frame like a tab), etc. as well as be a different color.

This is a job for the client makers, really, and would really be appreciated if someone could implement it.

Antiarc · 06/04/07, 12:37 PM

Originally Posted by Cel

I know at least for me, colors are not the best indicator of which little bar I am when there are many different colors already. I would love a feature that would allow me to format the player bar exclusive to the rest of the bars. ie: I could make my bar use a different surface, be a different size (vertical or even just have it extend a few pixels off the one side of the frame like a tab), etc. as well as be a different color.

This is a job for the client makers, really, and would really be appreciated if someone could implement it.

I'm also discontent with only colors for marking; I like some of these idea. Another I'd had was a "glow border" for your own bar, but I really like the idea of being able to change its height independently.

Regarding phase shifts and the like, I am getting close to having the NPC modules to the point I'd like them at - they all need testing, but I'm reasonably confident that the API works as intended. This will allow for fight-specific mob aggro management - for example, you can wipe threat on Hydross on a phase change, as well as on his adds (since they were all killed last phase); for Illhoof, you can wipe threat on Kil'rek every time he dies, so that each time he's summoned you have an accurate threat list for him (even with warlocks seeding the imps!); this is all automatic and is handled by the library itself, so no player interaction is necessary to manage threat lists mid-fight, leaving you free to do less UI management and more ass-kicking.