Noximus

We've had the same problem as well. The first time he killed the mage and the second time one of my warlocks shattered and he went back for the tank.

Extih <Apocalypse> - Raid Leader - 70 Warlock (Retired)
Noximus <Apocalypse> - 70 Warrior (Retired)

 

silv

I was noticing something strange on our Vashj attempts last night. It seems that Omen doesn't pick up Misdirection hate until the tank actually hits the target?

I'd see Misdirect go off, hunter shoot a few times, and the tank's threat would still not be on my bars. Not sure if this was a fluke, but it was pretty weird.

It is definitely possible though that the hunter wasn't using Omen, and instead KTM though. That may have been it?

 

Demi9OD

Speaking of RSTS and reassigning top threat, is there any way we could get a minimum time window for this to occur? On bosses with frequent targeted RSTS it's almost impossible to get a bead on your threat with omen due to all the focus changes. Setting a minimum amount of time for someone to be targeted by a mob before they switch to top agro would take care of this, around 2-3 seconds I'd guess.

 

Apate

That may be the granularity of the system I noted above. Basically, The mob says "Who do I have aggro on?" either at an interval or when an action is taken, and will only switch at that point. I think fade is the easiest way to illustrate this if you are interested in playing around to verify.

See you, auntie.

 

• Vykromond

EDIT: Ignore, hit Reply by accident on a half-baked post

EDIT 2: Gurgthock types too fast, here's the post I edited out:

Sounds almost like another iteration of the 'Al'ar charge bug,' where a mob confuses its RSTS with its real threat table.

 

◊ Praetorian

Sort of. Or Capernian lobbing a fireball at her Conflag target. If mobs can use abilities (or autoattack) that are meant to only be used on their true #1 aggro target, while completing an RSTS cycle, then I don't think it's a big stretch to imagine that pure aggro mechanics might be impacted as well.

 

• Vykromond

Man, you caught me as I tried to ninja-edit my post out. Well, I'll put it back in now...

 

Antiarc

Yeah, it did. My check-in tonight will default player/aggro bars to red, and you can, as always, recolor them as you see fit. The arrows didn't seem to useful in retrospect, and they took up resources that seemed to be not terribly well-spent.

Praetorian: Interesting thought on Void Reaver there. Were you using the trunk 25% modifier, or had you changed it to something else?

Anyone have any thoughts on how to handle that kind of situation?

Hrm. I'll need to test KTM -> Omen misdirection, but that's going to be kind iffy. I don't think it's currently supported. I can probably hack something together though.

I don't seem to remember having problems getting MD threat to show on the tank in normal operation, but I'll add it to my to-check list.

I'm testing a fix for this in my working copy, actually. The basic rule is "On aggro change, if the new aggro holder's threat is > old aggro holder's threat, switch immediately. Else, delay for 2 sec then switch." That should filter out RSTS without lagging the aggro display on genuine aggro switches.

 

Molkovien

As a shadow priest on Reliquary of Souls it seems Omen bugs a lot.

After a phase change, for some reason the shadow priest's just appear at the top with like 5-6k TPS or something silly like that. Sometimes a "/omen reset" seems to fix it somewhat (but still the numbers look kinda wrong) and for phase 3 a reset does not seem to work at all.

Just thought i would make you aware of the issue.

 

Antiarc

I don't know the Reliquary of Souls encounter at all. Do you have a video of it or anything I could see?

Which revision were you using? I've been working heavily on shadow priest-related things lately.

Edit: TPS is completely out of whack when you switch targets to a target you've been damaging without targeting. I didn't notice in raids because I'm a rogue, but I managed to see it last night while in a party as my priest; I've got a solid fix in testing that I should have ready for commit tonight.

 

• Vykromond

http://www.warcraftmovies.com/movieview.php?id=41601 is one movie of Reliquary.

 

Antiarc

Thank you. I'll review it and see if I can learn anything.

 

◊ Praetorian

Basically it's a 3-phase fight.

Essence of Suffering --> [interlude AoEing a wave of harmless souls] --> Essence of Desire --> [interlude] --> Essence of Anger

There generally isn't any out-of-combat period between these phases, so perhaps healing aggro is bring wrongly carried over from one phase to the next?

 

Molkovien

Now i will be the first to admit i do not know a lot about how the mod works.

But i had an idea anyway, could it be possible that Omen is storing the Global threat generated during the previous phase, and as soon as next phase begins it somehow takes all that global threat and adds it to the target. Could maybe account for why we see such numbers as 4-6k TPS.

The problem is though in phase1 no healing is possible so we are not using Vampiric Embrace, so I am not really sure how much global threat we actually generating.

Edit: Also our resto shaman sometimes shows up at the top with huge amounts of tps as well.

 

• frmorrison

Solid mod, it worked fine on VR yesterday for me (except it saying you pulled aggro when he is just targeting you for an orb, but that behavior is likely unavoidable). Keep up the good work!

 

Antiarc

This is exactly what is happening.

Is there a full threat wipe between phases? If so, can someone get me the phase triggers - yells, emotes, whatever? I can use those to build a module that'll perform a full threat wipe between phases, resulting in threat properly being reported.

 

Molkovien

We are going for him now, I will try and write down his emotes, and update you with it after we done raiding.

 

◊ Praetorian

It's brand new mobs entering the fight with clear aggro lists, basically. Imagine the event at the end of heroic Arcatraz, minus the OOC pauses between bosses.

The mob "Essence of Desire" simply does not exist prior to phase 2 of the fight. It pops out with a clean aggro list. Same with "Essence of Anger."

Edit:
Resto shaman probably spams chain heal the moment Essence of Suffering dies to top everyone who was injured off, so he'd be getting a bunch of heal aggro recorded on the global list.

 

Antiarc

Ok, great.

Since I have no way of telling when a mob spawns, global threat is applied to all mobs that you see in the encounter, unless a reset is done. The solution is basically to do a threat wipe on those mobs on some kind of trigger. This might be a certain number of deaths of the phase 1 mob, or a yell, or an emote, or what have you.

The best way to help me with it is to get a /chatlog and a /combatlog of the fight. That should give me most all the data I need to formulate a module.

Worst comes to worst, just have a raid officer issue a "/omen reset" command between phases until a proper module is in place.

 

Harem

This kind of thing seems like it will crop up often however. For example, on Vashj, the strider spawns will have tons of global aggro on them as shown by Threat, but they will still follow a warlock around.

Would it be possible to do some thing where Threat syncs the mobs it is currently keeping track of and to add new mobs to this list via mouse-over or something? That would kind of break things with respect to KTM syncing, but would be favorable in the long run.

 

Llilyth

A shadow priest who just installed Omen also complained about that. He said he had a ton of threat on the Omen meters the moment he targeted a new Strider that spawned before he did any damage or healing.

By the way, you don't mean Global Threat, right? Global Threat being high is normal methinks.

 

Molkovien

Gah, I totally forgot we keep curse of tongues on him, making his emotes become demonic.

I did screenshot the emotes though, but not sure how usefull they are when in demonic ?

 

◊ Kalman

VT/VE regen threat is Global. Mob threat = Global threat + Mob-specific threat. So, if you have a ton of global threat, a new mob will show you with lots of threat on it as a result.

 

Antiarc

Honestly, I have absolutely no clue how to handle them when they're in demonic. Gimme what you've got and I'll see what I can find.

Harem, I'll think about doing something like that. I'm thinking that have Threat maintain an internal list of mobs it has seen in the fight, and when you or a raid member mouses over or targets a mob that we haven't seen before, do a clear on it, effectively assuming it spawned right then, and tell the raid about it.

Can anyone think of a situation where this would not be a valid case? ie, there's a mob that accumulates threat, but can't be targeted or moused over, resulting in a postmature threat clear (which would under-report threat, which is bad).

 

◊ Praetorian

Not very, but really this seems like a problem that calls for a fundamental solution rather than a ton of boss-specific mods.

If I've been in combat for 3 minutes and suddenly I detect a brand new mob in my combat log that has never been seen by anyone in my raid until now, why should that mob come with an initial aggro list? This goes well beyond boss fights, though it obviously appears in boss fights as well. You could be doing a trash pull and then suddenly aggro a patrol midway through, for example.