Omen - Ace Threat Meter - Page 48

• Tyran · 07/06/07, 10:25 PM

If he only does one Eject during the fel rage like you say, it would be quite likely for someone to dodge it at some point, especially with rogues popping evasion. Unless this particular ability can't be dodged of course, but I have personally never noticed getting knocked down with evasion up.

Coupled with the insane damage rogues are putting out when they get fel rage, I think it's not very likely they are generating normal threat because I have never seen him stay on the fel raged target after returning to his normal phase.

It's possible they just added this ability to give him some extra burst damage (by making the target unable to dodge/parry for the duration).

CrazyGamer · 07/06/07, 11:07 PM

I'm curious if, or when, this mod might, in its current version, be desirable over KTM, and which remaining flaws we should be keeping an eye out for. Is there some main page being updated with the current status of the mod? If not, please consider making one (and linking it in the first post), as I'm surely not the only one who feels discouraged from reading through 1200 posts to evaluate the current quality of the mod.

Dawme · 07/07/07, 2:33 AM

Originally Posted by Praetorian

How do you KNOW that Fel Rage causes the target to generate no threat?

Why would there not be any indication if it were an effect?

Fel Rage does this:
1) http://thottbot.com/s40604
2) http://thottbot.com/s40616
3) http://thottbot.com/s41625

Insignificance very clearly modified threat generation: http://thottbot.com/s40618

Fel Rage does not. It would be unusual for a buff to have a hidden effect like this. Now, an attack on the other hand....

When Fel Rage is in effect, Gurtogg does not use the same Eject ability that he does normally (http://thottbot.com/s40486 ). Instead, he uses this version: http://thottbot.com/s40597 , which leaves a lingering stun debuff, but, being an ability, is a much more likely candidate for having a hidden threat modifier.

What if his Fel Rage Eject is a full deaggro, or a larger deaggro? He always does one Eject during Fel Rage, no more, and no less.

Can anyone prove to me that the Fel Rage player generates 0 threat while Rage'd, as opposed to generating normal threat, but then having a massive deaggro applied via Eject?

Honnestly, it's not that important for Omen (even if i recognize the discussion is interesting). I'm sure omen will be more near the real aggro table with a fel rage at 0 threat than how it is at the moment, and at the end of the day, this is what is important isn't it ?
Now on the Eject itself, i'm pretty sure he uses this version in fel rage just to put a bit more pressure on the fel rage target healing, exactly like the short mortal strike effect on the special fel rage arcing smash. But it's probably also a deaggro.

• Valoran · 07/07/07, 4:09 AM

Originally Posted by CrazyGamer

I'm curious if, or when, this mod might, in its current version, be desirable over KTM, and which remaining flaws we should be keeping an eye out for. Is there some main page being updated with the current status of the mod? If not, please consider making one (and linking it in the first post), as I'm surely not the only one who feels discouraged from reading through 1200 posts to evaluate the current quality of the mod.

For almost all intents and purposes, this mod is as desirable to use as KTM, in some cases (multiple mobs, lower grade machines) it's infact more desirable.

There's nothing to stop you (and other people in your guild) from running the two side by side.

Llilyth · 07/07/07, 4:23 AM

There seems to be a display bug with the threat bars. During Vashj, when I had aggro on Nagas, the aggro gain bar (which should be 100% of the width of the Omen window) and my own threat bar (which should be 10/11 the width of the Omen window) were extremely short, taking up maybe only 10% of the width of the Omen window. There were no bars above my threat bar and the aggro gain bar.

I disabled the display of KTM threat. Is Omen still calculating the width of the threat bars as if KTM threat is displayed? It makes sense if a KTM user had 10x more threat than me and thus his bar would be 10x longer than mine. Omen should ignore KTM threat when calculating the width of the bars though if I don't display KTM threat.

Nemaa · 07/07/07, 10:00 AM

This happened when a rogue had fel rage:

I have rogues filtered in my omen. It's surely the rogue who had fel rage at the top of the threat list and gurtogg hits our main tank Tsukaima. I don't know if it's enough for proving fel rage makes you generate no threat.

Cromfel · 07/07/07, 10:25 AM

Im back from another set of tests with Prism of Inner Calm, and there was problem with unarmed criticals (Didnt use weapon to get rid of mongoose proc and to get smaller damage amounts for exceeding threat gain). So, the trinket is working with normal melee weapons. back to square 1, and to test what modifier SoC and JoC has.

Edit: Gah what a mess this trinket is.

Test2:
Paladin 1 does 20 023 damage and Paladin 2 gains agro after 22 841 damage with 10 JoC crits and 9 melee crits.

Test3:
Paladin 1 does 9 969 damage and Paladin 2 gains agro after 11 115 damage with 5 JoC crits and 3 melee crits.

Test 4:
Paladin1 Does 22 131 damage (Threat gain at 110% = 24344)
Paladin2 Does 24 435 damage and gains agro. (+ 2 618 mana gained from SJ = 1309 threat)
Paladin2 have done 8 JoC criticals and 10 melee criticals.
Prism of Inner Calm should have removed 18 * 150 threat from critical attacks (2700 threat)
Paladin2 should have gained agro at 27135 damage, but instead he gained it at 25744

Am I missing something? Paladin 1 did only melee attacks. Paladin 2 did only melee attacks and JoC damage.

Llilyth · 07/07/07, 3:49 PM

Originally Posted by Nemaa

I have rogues filtered in my omen.

Thanks for a nice screenshot.

That's what I was referring to in my post above. If rogues are filtered, their threat shouldn't be considered when drawing the threat bars, right? The bar of the top threat person displayed should fill the Omen window.

Nemaa · 07/07/07, 4:17 PM

Originally Posted by Llilyth

Thanks for a nice screenshot.

That's what I was referring to in my post above. If rogues are filtered, their threat shouldn't be considered when drawing the threat bars, right? The bar of the top threat person displayed should fill the Omen window.

Well, I don't know... it has advantages (without it I couldn't figure out how Fel Rage works

) but maybe you're right. I made a post earlier in this thread "complaining" about the top threat bar not filling the omen window.

Marling · 07/07/07, 6:06 PM

Strange occurrences tonight on Nightbane. First four tries, and our top four dps (all running omen) pulled dps on four different attempts. One of them was me, and I am sure I was under the tank on threat. Chatted to the other, and we all seemed sure we were under the tank when we pulled. Maybe we were just being useless, and I am afraid I can't offer more than anecdotal evidence. But figured I should throw the idea out there - anyone else experienced the same?

Twid · 07/08/07, 6:32 AM

Our guild has seen an issue crop up a couple times this week that I've been unable to isolate a reason for. It doesn't occur every time, but at the start of a fight, as soon as a mage attacks a boss, their threat will jump up to the 100's of thousands. It occurred for us with one mage on Void Reaver, and for a completely different mage on Prince Malchezzar. If they use their invisibility, they will reset their threat to zero. Both times have been after a wipe, and upon reengaging the boss.

It may be that their threat values are being reapplied from the previous fight, but I am not certain this is the case

healmuth · 07/08/07, 7:35 AM

Fel Rage indeed makes you generate 0 threat as soon as you get the debuff.

• frmorrison · 07/08/07, 1:27 PM

Originally Posted by CrazyGamer

I'm curious if, or when, this mod might, in its current version, be desirable over KTM, and which remaining flaws we should be keeping an eye out for. Is there some main page being updated with the current status of the mod?

EJ, which is the #12 US guild in progression, has used this mod for weeks.

I feel it is good enough for widespread usage, however the downside is since Threat and Omen get updated a lot, if people don't update then you could get bad data.

wowace.com/files then click on Omen will have the newest version always.

Daize · 07/08/07, 2:12 PM

Or just daily use the program WoWAceUpdater.

healmuth · 07/08/07, 4:42 PM

I feel it is good enough for widespread usage

Its great that you feel that way - i have to disagree thou - while i love Omen and think its gonna be superb - its just not ready yet. Its not ready to replace KTM if you want maximized DPS as a very aggro sensible class. Its still too buggy and its still totally off on some encounters.

If you raid Gruul, Mag and perhaps the first bosses of SSC, it'll do just fine but i would not recommend it on later fights where you actually have to maximize dmg in order to win.

sovelis41 · 07/08/07, 4:47 PM

Originally Posted by Daize

Or just daily use the program WoWAceUpdater.

I update with Wowaceupdater several times during the day. I've run it when I log on to update everything, and then by raid time someone already has a newer version of Omen!

Edit: @Marling: It's funny you mention that about Nightbane because we had the same issue this past week where on our first attempt our rogue and feral druid got gibbed by Nightbane before the first air phase. Not that it's surprising but the rogue even vanished and Nightbane didn't blink and proceeded to own him. I was running Omen but some others were using KTM and both showed them below the MT in threat. The real kicker was there was also a DPS warrior there who, on KTM and Omen, was below the tank but above the druid and didn't pull aggro. The next attempt was smooth as butter with no changes in our approach.

Antiarc · 07/08/07, 5:28 PM

Originally Posted by Twid

Our guild has seen an issue crop up a couple times this week that I've been unable to isolate a reason for. It doesn't occur every time, but at the start of a fight, as soon as a mage attacks a boss, their threat will jump up to the 100's of thousands. It occurred for us with one mage on Void Reaver, and for a completely different mage on Prince Malchezzar. If they use their invisibility, they will reset their threat to zero. Both times have been after a wipe, and upon reengaging the boss.

It may be that their threat values are being reapplied from the previous fight, but I am not certain this is the case

This is the second report I've had of this happening on Malchezzar specifically. Are they both Fire mages, by any chance? Do you have armory links that I could use check them out with?

Originally Posted by sovelis41

Edit: @Marling: It's funny you mention that about Nightbane because we had the same issue this past week where on our first attempt our rogue and feral druid got gibbed by Nightbane before the first air phase. Not that it's surprising but the rogue even vanished and Nightbane didn't blink and proceeded to own him. I was running Omen but some others were using KTM and both showed them below the MT in threat. The real kicker was there was also a DPS warrior there who, on KTM and Omen, was below the tank but above the druid and didn't pull aggro. The next attempt was smooth as butter with no changes in our approach.

This strikes me as really odd; vanish always always always resets the rogue's threat to 0. I've never had it fail to do that - for him to vanish and then get smacked is extremely abnormal.

Marroc · 07/08/07, 6:10 PM

Originally Posted by Antiarc

This is the second report I've had of this happening on Malchezzar specifically. Are they both Fire mages, by any chance? Do you have armory links that I could use check them out with?

This strikes me as really odd; vanish always always always resets the rogue's threat to 0. I've never had it fail to do that - for him to vanish and then get smacked is extremely abnormal.

no its not... It's called lag, and as a rogue I can attest to that exact sequence of events happening on more than one occasion.

Basically, what is happening is this:

Rogue hits vanish.
Client vanishes rogue, and sends info to server.
Server sends info to client stating nightbane instagibbs rogue.
Client gets info that rogue is dead. Kills Rogue.
Server gets info that rogue vanished, but is dead. Info is ignored.

This is the #1 reason why rogues should never vanish in melee range of ANYTHING.

• Maestroquark · 07/08/07, 7:25 PM

Originally Posted by Marroc

This is the #1 reason why rogues should never vanish in melee range of ANYTHING.

No, it's why you Vanish before you get aggro instead of after. If you run out of melee range to Vanish, most things will just chase you down and you'll get a pissed off raid party.

monkorn · 07/08/07, 7:41 PM

It's a bug with vanish and certain encounters*, it won't reset threat if deadly poison or rupture is up.

*Confirmed for Magtheridon/Nightbane so far, no idea why specificially these two.

Kreoss · 07/08/07, 7:52 PM

Omen bugged today on Gruuls for me and all using it. It wouldn't show me or other running in on KTM users or even my own omen screen. I have version from today.

erudil · 07/08/07, 8:00 PM

Ah yes, I got bitten by this particular bug on our first mag kill; had rupture up, vanished and got smacked all over the floor by Magtheridon about ten seconds later. For comic relief, the same thing happened to another of our rogues a minute later.

Definately not a threatlib bug.

Bladerain · 07/08/07, 8:17 PM

Originally Posted by monkorn

It's a bug with vanish and certain encounters*, it won't reset threat if deadly poison or rupture is up.

*Confirmed for Magtheridon/Nightbane so far, no idea why specificially these two.

As a rogue who always keeps deadly poison up, I have never experienced that situation on those encounters. There must be more variables present. I also vanish before threat becomes critical though.

As for Omen bugs, I've noticed some weirdness on Fathom Lord. As soon as one of our hunters started DPS'ing the first add, they would max out the threat meter. The tank would disappear as well sometimes. However, since there are so many versions of Omen present in the raid, I can't really expect it to work perfectly.

Marroc · 07/08/07, 8:41 PM

Originally Posted by Maestroquark

No, it's why you Vanish before you get aggro instead of after. If you run out of melee range to Vanish, most things will just chase you down and you'll get a pissed off raid party.

Obviously. That was more in reference to PvP as thats where the bug is more often seen, but ya, in PvE you'd generally vanish before you hit the 110% threat limit.

Originally Posted by erudil

Ah yes, I got bitten by this particular bug on our first mag kill; had rupture up, vanished and got smacked all over the floor by Magtheridon about ten seconds later. For comic relief, the same thing happened to another of our rogues a minute later.

Definately not a threatlib bug.

That bug got fixed in the latest patch iirc.

Cromfel · 07/08/07, 9:30 PM

Elrath starts combat and causes 20 007 damage to target (Threat gain 110% at 22007.7) Timangi now starts to attack and causes 20 424 damage, gaining agro with 291 as last attack. (20424 Damage + 1 785 Mana gained from SJ = 21316 total threat)

So we are getting 700 more threat from somewhere.

Edit2: Checking few things. ~57 threat per Judgement gives us 855 threat. So there are no threat missing. Its 99.99% sure now that Judgement always causes additional ~57 threat. That seems to have been causing the headache.

Test:
890 damage from Paladin2 (979 agro gain)
17 Judgements of Crusader caused Paladin1 to pull agro.

That leads to ~57 threat per judgement.