Omen - Ace Threat Meter - Page 49

tvelocity · 07/09/07, 5:29 AM

Originally Posted by Antiarc

This is the second report I've had of this happening on Malchezzar specifically. Are they both Fire mages, by any chance? Do you have armory links that I could use check them out with?

This bug occurred to me as well on our last gruul kill; I don't know if it will be of any help, but I kept WWS for that fight. You should be able to easily find the relevant part of the log since I died a few seconds later due to a unlucky shatter :P

The log for the wipe before the kill is also available. This is the kill: http://www.lossendil.com/wws/?report...5c&s=8780-9303

I'm afraid I don't remember which version I was running at the time, since I update 2-3 times per day. I was the only one in the raid using omen, the rest was using KTM. The only other addon I use that messes with the combat log is recount.

My build is the cookie cutter fire 10/48/3 and the bug occurred at the first scorch. I also use stopcasting macros.

I hope any of this can help tracking this down.

Nemaa · 07/09/07, 8:01 AM

I have a problem since three days before when I update omen with externals via wowace updater. Every time I update omen with externals one of the two things occur:
-I don't see anything in my omen window. It's empty, not a single threat bar shows up.
-I can see everyone's threat but not mine.

I figured out how to fix it but it's not too fast cause I like to backup my addons folder. I need to update ALL my ace2 addons including omen. Here's my list ofaddons I'm using (I hope it helps).

• sp00n · 07/09/07, 11:05 AM

The list doesn't show up, and generally it isn't a good idea to only update certain addons. If a library changes but you're still using an addon that wasn't adapted to that change, it'll just brake.

Twid · 07/09/07, 12:27 PM

Originally Posted by Antiarc

This is the second report I've had of this happening on Malchezzar specifically. Are they both Fire mages, by any chance? Do you have armory links that I could use check them out with?

http://armory.worldofwarcraft.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Kael'thas&n=Melodee

http://armory.worldofwarcraft.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Kael'thas&n=Nocte

Both are indeed fire mages.

Antiarc · 07/09/07, 2:52 PM

There's probably a problem remaining with the Threat-1.0 library upgrade path. I'll see if I can track it down. Again.

Thanks for the Judgment report, Cromfel. I'll add that in.

Antiarc · 07/09/07, 4:40 PM

I'm starting to suspect that the mage bug is somehow related to the mage retaining threat across fights, and the first shot in a new fight is causing threat to show up.

If any of you mages can, next time that happens, run the following three commands:

/dump AceLibrary("Threat-1.0"):GetPlayerModule().targetThreat
/dump AceLibrary("Threat-1.0"):GetPlayerModule().generalThreat
/run AceLibrary("Threat-1.0"):DumpThreatTable(UnitName("player"))

and take a screenshot of each. That should help me find the problem a lot more easily.

mils · 07/10/07, 12:42 AM

Does Omen work with Hyrdross? I.E. When he transitions to frost or nature, does it clear the agro list (like the boss mods section of KTM)?

That type of boss mod stuff is the only thing holding us back from using Omen (we could manually do it if its possible but auto makes things so much easier

)

Xerophyte · 07/10/07, 1:01 AM

Yes, Omen (or rather Threatlib) clears on Hydross' phase transitions. For Outlands bosses Omen generally does a better job of tracking special effects than KTM does.

I'd even say Omen + Threat is better than KTM in most respects at this point, but the revisions are frequent enough that unless every raider runs WAU before every raid there's a fair risk you'll encounter compatability issues.

mils · 07/10/07, 1:20 AM

We run with a raid pack so all members have the same version of ktm and boss mods to remove compatibility issues

so i guess i will just update the pack a lot :/

Oh well time to test it this week i guess!

Rinced · 07/10/07, 4:18 AM

Maybe it was just because i was targt of the axes but … Not explaining a that high threath anyways.

♦ Cadfael · 07/10/07, 7:14 AM

I have both KTM and Omen run concurrently. Ever since I disabled "use KTM data" and "export to KTM" in Omen, it has seemed very accurate. I don't know what happens if export/import is activated while KTM is running as well. Maybe some double reporting or something ?

Could be a random hunch and a fix in a new revision when I switched those options off, but just thought I report this anyway. Can't drop KTM though until the raid switches entirely to Omen.

erudil · 07/10/07, 7:29 AM

Originally Posted by Rinced

Maybe it was just because i was targt of the axes but … Not explaining a that high threath anyways.

I don't see anything wrong here. Aggro gain tells you what level of threat you'll need to generate to gain aggro.

Zanthor · 07/10/07, 8:05 AM

Originally Posted by erudil

I don't see anything wrong here. Aggro gain tells you what level of threat you'll need to generate to gain aggro.

Check the TPS on the pull out bar... it appears to be in the millions.

Eggi · 07/10/07, 8:54 AM

The pulloutbar shows 301 TPS.

Towneh · 07/10/07, 9:19 AM

Originally Posted by erudil

I don't see anything wrong here. Aggro gain tells you what level of threat you'll need to generate to gain aggro.

On that note, what would attribute towards the the aggro gain bar being at the bottom of the list? Would running KTM at the same time cause any discrepency to the way Omen obtains its data? (using the build from Sunday night)

Antiarc · 07/10/07, 1:30 PM

The aggro gain bar is calculated at (threat of the aggro holder * range/melee modifier), so it looks like someone had aggro and was registering at about 27k threat. I don't know the Illidan fight at all, so I can't really comment on what would cause that to happen, unless Illidan targets people that aren't necessarily pulling/holding aggro.

Daboran · 07/10/07, 1:56 PM

Originally Posted by Antiarc

The aggro gain bar is calculated at (threat of the aggro holder * range/melee modifier), so it looks like someone had aggro and was registering at about 27k threat. I don't know the Illidan fight at all, so I can't really comment on what would cause that to happen, unless Illidan targets people that aren't necessarily pulling/holding aggro.

I've had that aggro gain bar low down fairly often - I'll try and make a note of the fights it occurs on.

Towneh · 07/10/07, 2:01 PM

OK thanks. Illidan randomly selects members of the raid every few seconds as a secondary target whilst he is being tanked so that may explain the behaviour of the bar.

Thezilch · 07/10/07, 6:52 PM

Honestly, there is no reason for an Aggro Gain bar to ever be anything but the percentage of the highest threat, on the target. So many encounters have RSTS abilities, Omen's criteria is very counterproductive.

Furthermore, I believe modern threat UIs should consider scrapping the Aggro Bar altogether. It's been my and my guilds experience that playing with threat above the MT is like playing with fire. This is especially true for encounters with targeted RSTS abilities, a lot in TBC. Therefore, top threat is very much the aggro gain, with only a few percent and an ability before taking a gib.

However, there is still room for an incapacitate bar, at 70% of top threat. If top threat is feared, conflagged, stunned, etc, anyone exceeding 70% threat is subjecting the top threat to the 130% rule, which most often leads to the death of those above 70%. The only encounter this doesn't apply is Vashj, from our experience.

Hygeia · 07/10/07, 6:59 PM

Another bug with Hydross, seems there are a lot of bugs with fights that reset threat:

Link

Notice how two hunters haven't reset their threat at all on the entire fight, Hydross is at 25%, Main Tank is at 22.3k threat. This is also reported in KTM, shown in the same image.

Possible things of interest:

- Both are hunters
- Doesn't look like either one reset their threat the entire fight.
- Both are running KTM, but threat is reset on all other users running KTM.

♦ Praetorian · 07/10/07, 7:02 PM

Originally Posted by Thezilch

Honestly, there is no reason for an Aggro Gain bar to ever be anything but the percentage of the highest threat, on the target. So many encounters have RSTS abilities, Omen's criteria is very counterproductive.

Furthermore, I believe modern threat UIs should consider scrapping the Aggro Bar altogether. It's been my and my guilds experience that playing with threat above the MT is like playing with fire. This is especially true for encounters with targeted RSTS abilities, a lot in TBC. Therefore, top threat is very much the aggro gain, with only a few percent and an ability before taking a gib.

However, there is still room for an incapacitate bar, at 70% of top threat. If top threat is feared, conflagged, stunned, etc, anyone exceeding 70% threat is subjecting the top threat to the 130% rule, which most often leads to the death of those above 70%. The only encounter this doesn't apply is Vashj, from our experience.

[nitpick]
76.9%
[/nitpick]

Antiarc · 07/10/07, 7:10 PM

Originally Posted by Thezilch

Honestly, there is no reason for an Aggro Gain bar to ever be anything but the percentage of the highest threat, on the target. So many encounters have RSTS abilities, Omen's criteria is very counterproductive.

Any Ragnaros/Murmur-type encounter where ranged cannot pull aggro blows this theory apart. The bar's also very useful for troubleshooting discrepancies in my own threat calculations, since it can help indicate where my calculations and Blizzard's calculations disagree.

Omen -should- have a buffer time on target switches if the target switch is to a target with less threat than the previous target in order to mitigate the RSTS problem, but I haven't tested it thoroughly.

Furthermore, I believe modern threat UIs should consider scrapping the Aggro Bar altogether. It's been my and my guilds experience that playing with threat above the MT is like playing with fire. This is especially true for encounters with targeted RSTS abilities, a lot in TBC. Therefore, top threat is very much the aggro gain, with only a few percent and an ability before taking a gib.

This is more for the lay-user's benefit. If he sees "I'm above the tank but don't have aggro", the user assumes the threat meter is broken and ignores it, when he's just sitting in the buffer zone.

Can you elaborate on the 76.9% buffer? I was under the impression that the mob aggro AI basically went:

"Is the highest threat incapped? If yes, go to next highest threat. If no, aggro that person."

Thus, if your tank gets feared the mob goes to #2 on the list, if they're at 129% or 5%. However, once the tank is un-feared, the tank immediately regains aggro unless someone else has passed the tank's 110/130% threshold while the tank was incapped. My impression was that gaining aggro marks you as the "threat to beat" to gain the mob's interest when not incapicatated, and the threat to beat doesn't change even when the aggro holder is incapped. The danger in a tank losing aggro isn't so much that a new threshold is set - it's that the tank stops generating threat.

Am I mistaken in this assumption? Incaps don't modify threat, so it seems like the 76.9% barrier is something of a red herring.

(Also, wouldn't it be 90.9%, since the tank would be meleeing the mob and thus only have to surpass the aggro holder's threat by 110%?)

Antiarc · 07/10/07, 7:25 PM

Originally Posted by Hygeia

Another bug with Hydross, seems there are a lot of bugs with fights that reset threat:

Link

Notice how two hunters haven't reset their threat at all on the entire fight, Hydross is at 25%, Main Tank is at 22.3k threat. This is also reported in KTM, shown in the same image.

Possible things of interest:

- Both are hunters
- Doesn't look like either one reset their threat the entire fight.
- Both are running KTM, but threat is reset on all other users running KTM.

I'm gonna guess they're running old KTMs that don't clear threat on the phase transitions. Unfortunately, that's a KTM problem and out of Omen's scope.

(This is also why KTM users are *'d in the display.

)

Thezilch · 07/10/07, 7:35 PM

Originally Posted by Antiarc

Any Ragnaros/Murmur-type encounter where ranged cannot pull aggro blows this theory apart. The bar's also very useful for troubleshooting discrepancies in my own threat calculations, since it can help indicate where my calculations and Blizzard's calculations disagree.

Which is why we can filter those classes or simply ignore anyone not within aggro range. And even as a debug purpose, too often you will find the 110%/130% bar does not play nice, even with perfect threat calculations.

Omen -should- have a buffer time on target switches if the target switch is to a target with less threat than the previous target in order to mitigate the RSTS problem, but I haven't tested it thoroughly.

Why go through all the trouble? If top threat is not top aggro, something else is very wrong (encounter or threat values). If one cares to see an aggro bar, there isn't a case where it should be anything but a percentage of top threat

This is more for the lay-user's benefit. If he sees "I'm above the tank but don't have aggro", the user assumes the threat meter is broken and ignores it, when he's just sitting in the buffer zone.

And what about the numerous cases of the 110/130% bar not being adhered? Both cases would break my trust, equally. Only, being above top threat is simply dangerous, regardless of what the mysterious Aggro Gain bar is telling me. My point was, I believe there are so many RSTS encounters that the bar is simply broken and not useful -- but to each his own.

Hygeia · 07/10/07, 7:39 PM

Originally Posted by Antiarc

I'm gonna guess they're running old KTMs that don't clear threat on the phase transitions. Unfortunately, that's a KTM problem and out of Omen's scope.

(This is also why KTM users are *'d in the display.

)

I'm 99.9% sure they are not.

Uh, also I'd check but apparently ThreatToKTM takes over the /ktm command line register. Might want to fix that? Maybe /ttk or something?