Omen - Ace Threat Meter - Page 58

• sp00n · 07/20/07, 6:54 PM

Well despite Nightbane does have a secondary targeting ability, he doesn't change targets for it, at least not visible.

Eylirria · 07/20/07, 7:27 PM

Originally Posted by sp00n

Well despite Nightbane does have a secondary targeting ability, he doesn't change targets for it, at least not visible.

He doesn't, but that's beyond the point. Obviously the Fixate-debuff/RSTS theory is all speculation, but if it were to be true, whether or not Nightbane visibily switches targets is irrelevant. Charred Earth comes up, RSTS pulls up a target for Nightbane to cast it under, it's there. Fixate comes up but mistakingly gets rolled with the RSTS, immediate effect is someone has guaranteed aggro on Nightbane, so now he is forced to adjust to it.

Sorry for the de-rail. Point is, if Nightbane had the rogue targetted through BoP, it's clearly not a threat-meter issue, but an aggro mechanic/bug we haven't figured out completely yet.

Kytrarewn · 07/20/07, 7:37 PM

Originally Posted by Grayson Carlyle

I still fight Nightbane regularly. He definately does not fixate. I tanked him on the phone last week and missed a fear at 18%, he gibbed the hunter then came back to me.

I also had a DPS warrior 2 nights ago who was #3 on threat behind a rogue suddenly have NB turn to him and stick to him until he was dead. Was just a bit short of the third flight and a good 40k threat behind me. But that's the only time I've had NB do something that didn't follow normal rules.

Grayson, it's also happened to both me and Raging while Cosgrave was tanking at least 2-3 times. There's obviously something screwy there.

Thebigcheeze · 07/20/07, 10:30 PM

Just did gruul, I was offtanking and I never pulled aggro, but the odd thing was that a DPS warrior went above me AND the MT and never got hurtful'd.

I don't have much mor einformation than that. Oh, the DPS warrior was using KTM, so I'm not sure how the descrepancy worked.

Antiarc · 07/20/07, 11:01 PM

If a master target wasn't set, then the warrior's shatter damage was being counted by KTM as threat on Gruul, which is incorrect, and would explain the discrepancy.

♦ Praetorian · 07/20/07, 11:13 PM

Originally Posted by Thezilch

Meh, I guess it's a sticky situation when considering the laymen. Layman can pass their MT by some degree of displayed threat without pulling aggro, or layman pulls aggro because of RSTS and MT pulses, while layman is below Aggro Gain. Both are bound to receive the "My displayed threat is wrong! Stupid addon!" There's no right solution I guess.

Here's a thought.

Isn't the simplest way of putting it that if you're above a certain threshold, you MIGHT pull aggro, and if you're even further up, above a higher threshold, you WILL pull aggro?

At melee range, you might say that if your threat is between 90.9% and 100% of the MT's threat, you're in "caution" territory, and if it's between 100% and 110%, you're in "danger" territory.

At range, those values might be 76.9-100 and 100-130.

You could depict those ranges in various ways, but the simplest would be some kind of color system where yellow is "under 100% but close enough that a switch could make the mob stick to you" and red is "over 100%." All you really need to know is which category you fall in, and how close you are to the boundaries of those categories.

Psy7th · 07/21/07, 4:52 AM

Regarding the "Warrior tanks Gruul, Druid offtanks Gruul and pulls aggro while Omen says he has not", I went with the druid and a healer to Shadow Labs for the sake of some simple tests on the first trash mobs to see if we could reproduce the Gruul problem. This is what happened with both player running french WoW clients, Omen r44158 and Threat-1.0 r43310 :

As a first test, we tested aggro gain with simple white autoattacks, no specials. Druid in bear form, Warrior in defensive stance. Warrior auto-attacks until roughly 4k threat, druid then auto-attacks and pulls aggro at 110%. This is normal behaviour. If the Druid starts building threat with auto-attacks up to 8k and then the warrior tries to pull aggro, this happen at 110%, which is also expected. So this would suggest that the talents and shapeshift/stance modifiers for both class are correctly taken into account.

Then, I wanted to test each single threat ability, but we had not enough time to do this. So we simply both built threat as we normally would on a mob. And we could reproduce the Gruul issue.

I was ahead at 12k3 threat and let the druid build threat. I made a screenshot as soon as he pulled aggro and he stopped attacking.

Later on in the same fight, the druid had aggro and I was building threat, but couldn't pull aggro even though Omen was indicating 118%.

These results would indicate that there is definitely something fishy going on in regards to warrior/druid threat evaluation, and not only with Gruul.

We still don't know if I (the warrior) am reporting too much or if it is the druid who is not reporting enough, but the issue is confirmed. I will try to have a rogue with me and the druid in further tests to really determine with what class the problem lies.

• sp00n · 07/21/07, 8:46 AM

Originally Posted by Eylirria

He doesn't, but that's beyond the point. Obviously the Fixate-debuff/RSTS theory is all speculation, but if it were to be true, whether or not Nightbane visibily switches targets is irrelevant. Charred Earth comes up, RSTS pulls up a target for Nightbane to cast it under, it's there. Fixate comes up but mistakingly gets rolled with the RSTS, immediate effect is someone has guaranteed aggro on Nightbane, so now he is forced to adjust to it.

Sorry for the de-rail. Point is, if Nightbane had the rogue targetted through BoP, it's clearly not a threat-meter issue, but an aggro mechanic/bug we haven't figured out completely yet.

Hm:

7/12 23:43:44.187  You are afflicted by Charred Earth.
7/12 23:43:48.734  Charred Earth fades from you.
7/12 23:43:48.734  You gain Sprint.
7/12 23:43:49.328  Nightbane suffers 196 Physical damage from your Rupture.
7/12 23:43:49.703  Nightbane suffers 27 Nature damage from your Deadly Poison VII. (26 resisted)
7/12 23:43:51.296  Nightbane suffers 196 Physical damage from your Rupture.
7/12 23:43:51.390  You perform Vanish.
7/12 23:43:51.390  You gain Stealth.
7/12 23:43:51.406  You gain Vanish.
7/12 23:43:51.531  Nightbane hits you for 8330.
7/12 23:43:52.171  Vanish fades from you.
7/12 23:43:52.765  Nightbane suffers 52 Nature damage from your Deadly Poison VII.
7/12 23:43:53.312  Nightbane suffers 196 Physical damage from your Rupture.
7/12 23:43:53.484  Nightbane hits you for 8010.
7/12 23:43:53.906  Your Stealth is removed by Nightbane.
7/12 23:43:53.906  Your equipped items suffer a 10% durability loss.
7/12 23:43:54.328  You die.

Although there is quite some time between it, it *is* an interesting coincidence.

Roana · 07/21/07, 5:14 PM

Some very quick and dirty testing with the feral druid of a friend last night indicates that Maul threat may not be calculated accurately (basically, I drew aggro at over 200% instead of at 130% with ranged attacks -- rank 1 holy smite --, whereas the threat transition occurred at 130% for Mangle).

My friend runs a somewhat outdated version of Omen, though, so I'm not sure if that's the real cause of the difference.

♦ Praetorian · 07/21/07, 5:17 PM

... why would you do specific threat testing knowingly using an outdated version?

Roana · 07/21/07, 6:18 PM

Originally Posted by Praetorian

... why would you do specific threat testing knowingly using an outdated version?

It was late at night when I saw the posting about druid threat being off, and I quickly coerced my friend into doing some testing in Nagrand before we logged. I didn't even think about his version possibly being outdated, and I thought it might still provide some pointers, especially since the handling of Maul threat hasn't changed in over a month.

Quarlash · 07/21/07, 6:29 PM

Testing lacerate threat moments ago, it appears that when lacerate crits, the threat is actually doubled. (So ~420 actually becomes ~800)

KTM had this set properly, and Omen didn't. I'm a Feral tank and I'd been noticing some obvious discrepancies. Anyhow, we went to Blasted Lands, and found a 61 elite with 50k health. I auto-attacked and lacerated until two crit. This gave a 1k difference in threat between KTM and Omen. (I had KTM display on Omen disabled, as well as Omen sharing with KTM disabled)

I had a friend (druid) in caster form (human) auto-swing until he pulled threat. When he approached Omen's value, he removed his staff. He clearly passed Omen's aggro gain without pulling hate, and proceeded to approach KTM's. When he did surpass KTM's aggro gain, he did in fact acquire hate.

WoW Forums -> Lacerate Threat; Numbers thrown around is a link to the thread I wrote concerning this. If this post comes off as "KTM's better" or "OMG I LUV KTM", it's not meant in that way. I really like Omen, a lot. And I really want it to succeed and be everything it should, so I hope this will help accomplish that.

Cheers!

-Quarlash

Edit: I realize this post doesn't include any 'proof', the best proof available I've already written out into the thread on the Druid forums that I linked. It's pretty step-by-step as far as my testing went.

Daboran · 07/21/07, 7:51 PM

See the thread on these forums about Lacerate threat - we now have some accurate figures for it.

Having said this, I didn't see anything about Lacerate crits.

Thebigcheeze · 07/21/07, 11:55 PM

For what it's worth, i've been experiencing the gruul threat issue long before omen came around, so I doubt KTM is completely accurate either.

Roana · 07/22/07, 1:16 AM

Originally Posted by Thebigcheeze

For what it's worth, i've been experiencing the gruul threat issue long before omen came around, so I doubt KTM is completely accurate either.

KTM 19.18 and earlier has an issue with counting innate Shield Slam threat twice when the dispel proc ("You perform Shield Slam on <mob>") goes off. (I mentioned that to Kenco and more recent builds have fixed that.) Omen does not have this particular issue.

Athinira · 07/22/07, 4:51 AM

Originally Posted by Quarlash

Testing lacerate threat moments ago, it appears that when lacerate crits, the threat is actually doubled. (So ~420 actually becomes ~800)

KTM had this set properly, and Omen didn't. I'm a Feral tank and I'd been noticing some obvious discrepancies. Anyhow, we went to Blasted Lands, and found a 61 elite with 50k health. I auto-attacked and lacerated until two crit. This gave a 1k difference in threat between KTM and Omen. (I had KTM display on Omen disabled, as well as Omen sharing with KTM disabled)

I had a friend (druid) in caster form (human) auto-swing until he pulled threat. When he approached Omen's value, he removed his staff. He clearly passed Omen's aggro gain without pulling hate, and proceeded to approach KTM's. When he did surpass KTM's aggro gain, he did in fact acquire hate.

WoW Forums -> Lacerate Threat; Numbers thrown around is a link to the thread I wrote concerning this. If this post comes off as "KTM's better" or "OMG I LUV KTM", it's not meant in that way. I really like Omen, a lot. And I really want it to succeed and be everything it should, so I hope this will help accomplish that.

Cheers!

-Quarlash

Edit: I realize this post doesn't include any 'proof', the best proof available I've already written out into the thread on the Druid forums that I linked. It's pretty step-by-step as far as my testing went.

Hello. Given that i was the original person who came up with the Lacerate Threat numbers (Link here) along with Tangedyn i would very much like to see some reliable testing of this. This never appeared in our original testing. I don't have the time to test this myself at the moment, but if you could provide some reliable threat data, including damage, healing, talents and other factors it would be great.

Edit: Sorry for going off-topic, but i feel this is kinda important also in the development of Omen itself, so i figured id post here. Getting some numbers on Maul would also be great, if i find the time im surely to drag one of my friends into this.

Lofted · 07/22/07, 5:19 AM

Omen r-44409 / Threat r-44369

Roana · 07/22/07, 8:02 AM

Originally Posted by Athinira

Edit: Sorry for going off-topic, but i feel this is kinda important also in the development of Omen itself, so i figured id post here. Getting some numbers on Maul would also be great, if i find the time im surely to drag one of my friends into this.

The threat value of Maul seems to be about accurate; after the feral druid of my friend hit the mob (Clefthoof in Nagrand) with a 441 damage Maul, my priestess (holy, fully specced into Subtlety) drew aggro at range with 1879 damage from smites, but not with 1857. That would put innate Maul threat between 323 and 332.

The thing that was off was the threat for Maul actually being reported by Omen, which was measurably lower than it should be. I don't remember the actual number, but threat should have been about 1141, and it didn't even break into four digit range. Again, that MAY be an issue with an incompatibility with an older version of Omen; on the other hand, I did not see any change to how Maul threat is computed over the last month.

Marroc · 07/22/07, 2:49 PM

"Adding Dependency Omen -> Soar-1.0"

ooo... What are you planning Antiarc :P

Geheim · 07/22/07, 5:12 PM

Originally Posted by Marroc

"Adding Dependency Omen -> Soar-1.0"

ooo... What are you planning Antiarc :P

Soar is all about floating combat text, so I'd imagine it is the lib he used for the 'You are at XX% of player Y's threat!" that flashes across the screen in a HUGE font now if you have warnings enabled.

Marroc · 07/22/07, 5:53 PM

Originally Posted by Geheim

Soar is all about floating combat text, so I'd imagine it is the lib he used for the 'You are at XX% of player Y's threat!" that flashes across the screen in a HUGE font now if you have warnings enabled.

Oh I know what it does :P

Was more interested if he was planing anything out of the ordinary, or if it was just the standard sct style warnings that he has in there now.

Bakxs · 07/22/07, 8:14 PM

Is anyone running Violation and Omen. When running both of them together, Omen stopped showing me on the list. It showed everyone else, but I didn't see where I was.

Sorry if this was mentioned previously in this epic thread (or somewhere else). But I would really like to use both of these add-ons.

Antiarc · 07/22/07, 10:31 PM

Soar's just an abstraction library so I can hit any installed floating combat text addon. It just flashes the warning, which may be toggled off in the Warning menu

Bakxs: Make sure that your Violation and Omen are both updated; they both use the Threat library, and there was an issue with an older version of Threat that prevented the proper library upgrade. If it happens with up-to-date versions, please let me know.

I'll check into the Lacerate thing - thanks for the heads-up. Let me know if Maul seems off with a newer version.

panny · 07/23/07, 1:54 AM

Originally Posted by Bakxs

Is anyone running Violation and Omen. When running both of them together, Omen stopped showing me on the list. It showed everyone else, but I didn't see where I was.

Sorry if this was mentioned previously in this epic thread (or somewhere else). But I would really like to use both of these add-ons.

I have a problem along similar lines. When using Omen in 25-man raids, I don't show up on the threat list. In everything else (Karazhan, 5-mans, etc) I show up fine. I have the "show me at all times" option ticked, and have only Druids/Warriors/Shaman displayed. I don't change any options at all between the different groups.

trinket · 07/23/07, 9:03 AM

Hey, does anyone have any idea what is showing the wrong threat for Lord Sanguinar on Kael. He's been like this for the last 2 nights on Omen. It's showing people above what the tanks and just all over the place basically. Here's a screenshot -

Sorry if this has already been covered, I couldn't find any replies on it.. it's just the kael encounter that has difficulties.