...might seem like a normal taunt with some special abilities, however they do NOT work like a normal taunt and do not give you the same threat as the mobs current target. They just add the taunt debuff (forces the mob to attack you for X seconds) and add a static amount of threat, which needs to be tested.
There's static threat for Mocking Blow. CS/CR aren't adding any static threat right now, but they aren't working as true taunts, either. I believe they're pretty close to right.
Vampiric Embrace:
Combat log states "X's Vampiric Embrace heals you for Y" and since Vampiric Embrace is classified as a Shadow Spell aka. a Shadow Resistance based debuff, its therefore safe to assume its affected by Shadow Affinity and not affected by Silent Resolve.
Already accounted for.
Vampiric Touch:
I did some calculations on Vampiric Touch. Assuming Vampiric Touch works like other power gains, aka. 5 threat per point restored, a Shadow Priest would with Shadow Affinity and Salvation do over 1500 TPS with VE and VT assuming 1000 DPS. Since this is not feasable (we are having Shadowpriests without Salvation doing 1k DPS and still not pulling agro) its safe to assume that the mana restoration component on Vampiric Touch either has a modifier or has no threat. This needs to be tested out.
Mana gains are attributed to the person that made the gain - if JoeShadowpriest causes you to gain 100 mana, you gain 50 threat from that mana before other modifiers, rather than JoeShadowpriest gaining it. Otherwise, paladins could just cast Wisdom on the entire raid, go AFK, and the mob would never leave 'em alone.
Mana gains are attributed to the person that made the gain - if JoeShadowpriest causes you to gain 100 mana, you gain 50 threat from that mana before other modifiers, rather than JoeShadowpriest gaining it. Otherwise, paladins could just cast Wisdom on the entire raid, go AFK, and the mob would never leave 'em alone.
Thats a hesitated assumption. Remember that Judgement of Wisdom is an affect that is triggered when the raid attacks the mob while Vampiric Touch is an effect that is ONLY triggered when the Shadowpriest attacks the target. Under normal circumstances i would assume VT and VE use the same mechanics, just replacing Mana with HP (as example, VE healing happens to any party member of the priest standing in 40 yard range of the priest and not in 40 yard range of the mob with VE on it = the healing originates from the priest).
Don't be so quick to conclude. You should test this instead, unless you already did that. I'm pretty sure that VT says something along the lines of "Your Vampiric Touch restores X mana to person Y", aka. the mana regeneration is attributed to the priest. I can't confirm though.
Thats a hesitated assumption. Remember that Judgement of Wisdom is an affect that is triggered when the raid attacks the mob while Vampiric Touch is an effect that is ONLY triggered when the Shadowpriest attacks the target. Under normal circumstances i would assume VT and VE use the same mechanics, just replacing Mana with HP (as example, VE healing happens to any party member of the priest standing in 40 yard range of the priest and not in 40 yard range of the mob with VE on it = the healing originates from the priest).
Don't be so quick to conclude. You should test this instead, unless you already did that. I'm pretty sure that VT says something along the lines of "Your Vampiric Touch restores X mana to person Y", aka. the mana regeneration is attributed to the priest. I can't confirm though.
I'm pretty sure Antiarc meant Blessing of Wisdom. And not the judgment.
This is what vampiric touch says in the combatlog: Joe gains 21 Mana from Vampiric Touch.
And this is how vampiric embrace shows up in the combatlog: Your Vampiric Embrace heals Joe for 129.
This is how a mana potion shows up: Joe gains 2273 Mana from Joe 's Restore Mana.
That all said, the way things appear in the combatlog proves very little. Just as sunder armor doesnt show up anymore in the combatlog it doesnt mean it stopped generating threat when used.
... Assuming Vampiric Touch works like other power gains, aka. 5 threat per point restored, ...
Just a quick clarification, even though it has been correctly stated since, only rage and energy gains generate 5 threat per point restored (presumably because they cap at 100); mana restores are the same as heals in that they generate 0.5 threat per point restored.
I downloaded the latest version, and took a mage out to Terokkar to test the taunt right before SSC. Needless to say, it's doing something bonky. I'll try to get the specific numbers after my raid but from first glance this is what happened:
Mage shot a frostbolt at a spider then stopped all subsequent attacks.
I taunted the mob (without initiating auto-attack) and got around twice the threat the mage had. Then shortly thereafter the mage would jump way back (read: about twice my threat) despite the fact that the spider remained on me.
As I said, I'll try to get specifics after the raid, but figured I'd give a heads up.
Edit #1: The jumping of bars seems to be unrelated to taunt. Perhaps linked with the fact that I turned KTM back on for the raid? (Was not happening in the heroic mana-tombs when I had KTM disabled).
I am a little curious how you intend to cope with Righteous Defense. In a situation where you taunt during an AoE pull (tons of mobs with identical names) the Righteous Defense will basically grab 3 at random, which may not be targetted or tracked by anyone in the raid. Looking at the warrior code it seems you make use of the implicit knowledge that you the warrior is targetting a mob that is targetting the current aggro holder. Clearly that assumption is invalid for paladins 8-( KTM clearly could not do better, but since it was single target it tended not to matter.
Oh, and the threat modifier for Holy Shield is missing. All damage caused by Holy Shield generates 35% additional threat (all ranks).
I am a little curious how you intend to cope with Righteous Defense. In a situation where you taunt during an AoE pull (tons of mobs with identical names) the Righteous Defense will basically grab 3 at random, which may not be targetted or tracked by anyone in the raid. Looking at the warrior code it seems you make use of the implicit knowledge that you the warrior is targetting a mob that is targetting the current aggro holder. Clearly that assumption is invalid for paladins 8-( KTM clearly could not do better, but since it was single target it tended not to matter.
Oh, and the threat modifier for Holy Shield is missing. All damage caused by Holy Shield generates 35% additional threat (all ranks).
To be honest, I have no idea how I'm going to handle Righteous Defense. I'm completely open to suggestions.
- Pet problems fixed (unknown name, not getting threat readings)
- Fade fixed
- Double displayed global threat bug fixed
- Holy Shield's additional 35% modifier added
- KTM reading incorporated (you can now see threat numbers for people running KTM in Omen - they show up with an asterisk next to their name in Omen)
- Hunter-pet Misdirection fixed.
- Hunter-player Misdirection fixed and tested. Both the hunter and the target need to be running ThreatLib, however.
Here I am on my wife's hunter, correctly seeing threat from my rogue (on my laptop, running KTM) in Omen.
- Pet problems fixed (unknown name, not getting threat readings)
- Fade fixed
- Double displayed global threat bug fixed
- KTM reading incorporated (you can now see threat numbers for people running KTM in Omen - they show up with an asterisk next to their name in Omen)
- Hunter-pet Misdirection fixed.
- Hunter-player Misdirection fixed and tested. Both the hunter and the target need to be running ThreatLib, however.
Did you fix VE/VT tonight? I know you were working on it.
For Righteous Defense....your going to run into a significant barrier. My understanding of Righteous Defense is it causes threat to three mobs beating on Player X. So I would see if its possible to determine when mob A,B,C, or D switches targets from player X to the paladin using Righteous Defense. If so, that target was obviously taunted as a result of Righteous Defense. The next step would then be to determine the threat value for Righteous Defense, i.e turn off autoattack and see what damage causes them to switch back. I don't have the expertise to pull this off or I'd volunteer.
Just an idea.
On another note, the threat library seems to be coming along pretty solidly. A few people in my guild have been tracking its progress by running five mans with it and all of our bugs are usually fixed by the next day.
As great as this forum seems to be serving as a hotbed for discussion at this point...don't you think it would be better to have an ace-wiki page for threat-lib? (I tried searching for one but came up with nothing). I'd like to submit bugs as we find them....
To be honest, I have no idea how I'm going to handle Righteous Defense. I'm completely open to suggestions.
I'll get Holy Shield in.
My first thought would be that you should track the cast of righteous defense (what player it is cast on), then for a brief window of time you scan for the secondary RD* in the logs, and copy the threat value of the debuffed mobs from the player. That means keeping implicit state for some events in the combatlog.
I do not see my casts of Righteous Defense in the combat log I have here, so you may have to pick up the cast and target through spell cast notification. Looking in my combat logs I see things like:
4/9 23:22:15.430 You cast Righteous Defense on Lord Crispin Ference.
Which is the secondary spell effect. You would run that line through the parser to mob mapping code just like all other threat events. It loses the super reliably that you have with a warrior since you have to go through the mapping instead of pulling targets, but I think it is no worse than any normal threat event.
*There are 3 spells named Righteous Defense. There is the spell I cast on a player. There is a second spell which is lterally just a taunt, it is fired on the random mobs base of the target off the first spell. The third is the debuff which is placed on the targets of the second. The first does not show up in the combatlog, the second does.
Just a quick clarification, even though it has been correctly stated since, only rage and energy gains generate 5 threat per point restored (presumably because they cap at 100); mana restores are the same as heals in that they generate 0.5 threat per point restored.
- KTM reading incorporated (you can now see threat numbers for people running KTM in Omen - they show up with an asterisk next to their name in Omen)
Quick Q -- Can Omen broadcast to KTM as of yet or just receive? While you only mention reading, I figured that there was a chance that sending may have been taken care of as well.
I am not your personal Frost Deathknight knowledge base. If you have a simple question, ask in the simple questions thread; if you have a more esoteric, specific, or complicated question, ask in the spec-appropriate thread.
My PM, WoWmail, and, especially, chat boxes are NOT the appropriate places for these questions.
Quick Q -- Can Omen broadcast to KTM as of yet or just receive? While you only mention reading, I figured that there was a chance that sending may have been taken care of as well.
One thing I'm concerned about at the moment is (in the general context of threat meters, not just Omen/Threat) how to handle the threat generation of Prayer of Mending and Earth Shield (I'd include Lifebloom, but there's currently some debate on who actually gets credited with the threat from the final heal of Lifebloom).
Prayer of Mending and Earth Shield generate threat for the person they heal, and to the best of my understanding, are affected by the defensive stance/(dire) bear form modifier. Furthermore, I'd expect that (like other heals) their threat is split between the mobs that are aware of the tank and not CCed. Since threat from Prayer of Mending and Earth Shield seem to generate a significant fraction of a tank's aggro in a raid environment, one would want to account for it as accurately as possible, but there's really no way unless one knows how many mobs there are between whom the threat is split.
Am I missing something here or is this really as thorny a problem as it appears to be?
Remeber that Omen and Threat-1.0 are two seperate things.
Threat-1.0 does all the work and actually this is all a person has to have if they only care about broadcasting thier threat to the group.
Omen (and Violation, and Assessment) are graphical front ends for Threat-1.0 (gee look at that.. 1 week old and 3 choices for a UI already). Assessment shows TPS already I think based on the commit logs and I believe I saw Antiarc say he would be adding it to Omen.
Right now his main focus is getting Threat-1.0 to cover all the basis and be stable and feature rich. Its already capable of accepting KTM data and will likely be sending soon as well.
Once Threat-1.0 is farther along, he will be working on Omen (and Sanity *poke* *prod*). Right now Omen is more for testing Threat than anything, though it is usable in its own right.
Prayer of Mending and Earth Shield generate threat for the person they heal, and to the best of my understanding, are affected by the defensive stance/(dire) bear form modifier. Furthermore, I'd expect that (like other heals) their threat is split between the mobs that are aware of the tank and not CCed. Since threat from Prayer of Mending and Earth Shield seem to generate a significant fraction of a tank's aggro in a raid environment, one would want to account for it as accurately as possible, but there's really no way unless one knows how many mobs there are between whom the threat is split.
Am I missing something here or is this really as thorny a problem as it appears to be?
You are correct; it's a very difficult problem. And it affects all heals. It's just particularly relevant for heals that increase the tank's threat threshold. You can guess how many monsters have raid members on the threat list using the combat log, but there's no way to differentiate multiple monsters with the same name, which is 90% of the interesting boss fights with multiple adds.
I believe this is the only potentially workable solution without Blizzard expanding the UI interface:
Originally Posted by Praetorian
Well, it's clunky, but if you really wanted, you could make boss-specific functionality. Even if the combat log has no way of revealing that there are 12 mobs named Tidewalker Lurker, you and I know that there are 12. We know that the moment Morogrim emotes/quakes, there are 13 mobs on my aggro list, and if I heal someone for 2600 with no threat modifiers, that I am generating 100 aggro on each murloc and on Morogrim. As we see "Tidewalker Lurker dies" we know that this value is reduced by 1, until eventually there's just Morogrim left and all my heal aggro is going right to him.
Same with Solarian's 12 Agents, or Ragnaros's 8 Sons of Flame, or the 5 Hellfire Channelers on Magtheridon. On Magtheridon we know that Abyssals spawn based on the direct-damage spell effect associated with their arrival. And so forth. If you build in specific enough logic, customized per boss fight, you can accurately track threat among multiple mobs of the same name.
This kind of feature is a lot of work though, so I wouldn't expect to see it any time soon. It's definitely possible to do though. I believe the threat library interface would want the ability to dynamically modify the number of monsters aggroed to the raid based on combat log messages, and you'd have separate assignments for each fight you're engaged in. Even though different events can cause a monster to spawn (eg. emote from Morogrim versus damage from Abyssal spawn on Magtheradon), I believe you could bind the increase or decrease in number of raid spawns to a single, filterable combat log message. Once that interface is written it should be easy to modify it for new boss fights. It might look something like
This is borderline off topic but definitely doesn’t warrant its own thread.
With that preamble I would like threat meters to have three different views:
Tank View:
Tank view should be simplified view (tanks have enough to watch out for without having to watch some pretty colored bars too). It should give them their relative position to the other tanks and the top DPS threat and their relative TPS. Perhaps it would also be useful to have their overall threat margin to entire raid (excluding healers).
DPS View:
This view gives DPS their overall threat percentage and Time to Overtake Threat (TOT). The TOT would be a time in seconds at there current 30 second average that it will take them to pull aggro. A 30 second average is still highly susceptible to a lucky (or unlucky depending on how you look at it) crit string but any longer interval would be useless for many fights. It would be nice if it gave them some relative statistics on how much threat they are creating versus the average DPSer. It would be even more amazing if it tied in DPS to TPS. If mage A is generating 500 TPS and 1000 DPS and mage B is generation 600TPS and 800 DPS that would be nice to know.
Raid leader View:
The raid leader would be a more holistic view: Overall Tank TPS. Top DPSers TPS, Top 5 DPSers TPS, All DPSes TPS.
A graphical line graph of Tank Threat versus DPS threat would be amazing.
For the average EJ reader some of this may be overkill, but currently my raiding group is stuck with a tank that struggles to maintain a 450TPS on a non-deagroing tank and spank mob. I have a horrible PvE spec right now and with a good crit string I can generate almost 1200 TPS. With a normal crit percentage for me I average no less then 650TPS when I am keeping all my dots and using no outside buffs. With the more modular approach of Threat1.0 this is all possible, you are just simplifying the views you present to your players. As opposed to having three different views this could be handled with profiles much like SCT does, a standard profile setup for each of these rolls could get your average user going.
This is one of the really cool things I've been looking forward to with Threat-1.0.. the mod has been out for a week, and already there are 3+ clients, and probably more in the works. I expect eventually there will be clients for every type of raider.
"There is much pleasure to be gained from useless knowledge." - Bertrand Russell
05/31/07, 7:47 PM
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