Omen - Ace Threat Meter - Page 9

Crazytrucker · 06/01/07, 5:43 PM

Originally Posted by Harem

You don't need to track unique mobs, since they will have their own tables. What you need to track is the number of duplicates.

The starred ones are the ones that are unnecessary.

I think he is just trying to determine how many mobs are getting healing aggro or earthen shield aggro, so this could be easier way to determine the amount of threat each tick causes.

Antiarc · 06/01/07, 5:48 PM

Originally Posted by Roana

One thing I'm concerned about at the moment is (in the general context of threat meters, not just Omen/Threat) how to handle the threat generation of Prayer of Mending and Earth Shield (I'd include Lifebloom, but there's currently some debate on who actually gets credited with the threat from the final heal of Lifebloom).

Prayer of Mending and Earth Shield generate threat for the person they heal, and to the best of my understanding, are affected by the defensive stance/(dire) bear form modifier. Furthermore, I'd expect that (like other heals) their threat is split between the mobs that are aware of the tank and not CCed. Since threat from Prayer of Mending and Earth Shield seem to generate a significant fraction of a tank's aggro in a raid environment, one would want to account for it as accurately as possible, but there's really no way unless one knows how many mobs there are between whom the threat is split.

Am I missing something here or is this really as thorny a problem as it appears to be?

Heals like that are already credited to the person that received them, and are modified by that person's threat modifiers automatically. That's one problem solved.

The second half is the encounter participant divisor - in the general case, this is assumed to be "1", but I just checked in code that will allow for participant counting in specific fights. For example, in the Nightbane fight, the phase 2 transition sees 5 mobs spawned, so you have a mob count of 6. Callbacks are registered for each participant in the fight, and when a participant dies, the callback is called, which, in this case, decrements the mob count. I haven't tested it out yet, but I expect it to work quite well. The numbers will not be perfect all the time, but they will be closer than they would be with a simple assumption of a single encounter participant.

(Incidentally, this check-in is pretty close to NPC/encounter-specific modules being ready - I have Attumen, Nightbane, Hydross, and Magtheridon modules so far, which I'm mostly using to help drive development of the core)

• Vulajin · 06/01/07, 5:59 PM

Originally Posted by Feya

For Righteous Defense....your going to run into a significant barrier. My understanding of Righteous Defense is it causes threat to three mobs beating on Player X. So I would see if its possible to determine when mob A,B,C, or D switches targets from player X to the paladin using Righteous Defense. If so, that target was obviously taunted as a result of Righteous Defense. The next step would then be to determine the threat value for Righteous Defense, i.e turn off autoattack and see what damage causes them to switch back. I don't have the expertise to pull this off or I'd volunteer.

Righteous Defense functions exactly the same way as Taunt or Growl. That is, it immediately sets the paladin's threat equal to the currently highest threat target on up to three mobs that were attacking the target of the ability. It also forces those mobs to "stick" to the paladin regardless of threat for three seconds. After the ability wears off, the mobs are not forced to stick to the paladin, but the paladin still keeps any threat he gained by using the ability.

Antiarc · 06/01/07, 6:04 PM

Originally Posted by Vulajin

Righteous Defense functions exactly the same way as Taunt or Growl. That is, it immediately sets the paladin's threat equal to the currently highest threat target on up to three mobs that were attacking the target of the ability. It also forces those mobs to "stick" to the paladin regardless of threat for three seconds. After the ability wears off, the mobs are not forced to stick to the paladin, but the paladin still keeps any threat he gained by using the ability.

The problem is primarily in determining the taunted targets and the threat to add, since Righteous Defense is done in a somewhat roundabout manner.

Rinced · 06/01/07, 7:50 PM

Originally Posted by Myonax

This is borderline off topic but definitely doesn’t warrant its own thread.

With that preamble I would like threat meters to have three different views:

Tank View:
Tank view should be simplified view (tanks have enough to watch out for without having to watch some pretty colored bars too). It should give them their relative position to the other tanks and the top DPS threat and their relative TPS. Perhaps it would also be useful to have their overall threat margin to entire raid (excluding healers).

DPS View:
This view gives DPS their overall threat percentage and Time to Overtake Threat (TOT). The TOT would be a time in seconds at there current 30 second average that it will take them to pull aggro. A 30 second average is still highly susceptible to a lucky (or unlucky depending on how you look at it) crit string but any longer interval would be useless for many fights. It would be nice if it gave them some relative statistics on how much threat they are creating versus the average DPSer. It would be even more amazing if it tied in DPS to TPS. If mage A is generating 500 TPS and 1000 DPS and mage B is generation 600TPS and 800 DPS that would be nice to know.

Raid leader View:
The raid leader would be a more holistic view: Overall Tank TPS. Top DPSers TPS, Top 5 DPSers TPS, All DPSes TPS.

A graphical line graph of Tank Threat versus DPS threat would be amazing.

For the average EJ reader some of this may be overkill, but currently my raiding group is stuck with a tank that struggles to maintain a 450TPS on a non-deagroing tank and spank mob. I have a horrible PvE spec right now and with a good crit string I can generate almost 1200 TPS. With a normal crit percentage for me I average no less then 650TPS when I am keeping all my dots and using no outside buffs. With the more modular approach of Threat1.0 this is all possible, you are just simplifying the views you present to your players. As opposed to having three different views this could be handled with profiles much like SCT does, a standard profile setup for each of these rolls could get your average user going.

Maybe your looking for this Recount
or Violation

Antiarc · 06/01/07, 7:53 PM

If you're testing Threat-1.0 and find a bug, want to request something for the API, etc, please see the following:

http://www.wowace.com/forums/index.php?topic=6480.0

Daboran · 06/01/07, 8:28 PM

Originally Posted by Cel

This is one of the really cool things I've been looking forward to with Threat-1.0.. the mod has been out for a week, and already there are 3+ clients, and probably more in the works. I expect eventually there will be clients for every type of raider.

Let's hope so, though to be honest I was wondering how much of a "meter" dps actually needs. I was thinking the other night in Karazhan that all i really need is a bigass warning flashing up when I'm in danger of overtaking the main tank (I was in catform for Nightbane). This should be possible with Threat. Could your client can take your historical max crit amount and your average damage and use it to give an indication of when you need to ease off on the damage or hit your deaggro skill?

Antiarc · 06/01/07, 8:34 PM

Originally Posted by Daboran

Let's hope so, though to be honest I was wondering how much of a "meter" dps actually needs. I was thinking the other night in Karazhan that all i really need is a bigass warning flashing up when I'm in danger of overtaking the main tank (I was in catform for Nightbane). This should be possible with Threat. Could your client can take your historical max crit amount and your average damage and use it to give an indication of when you need to ease off on the damage or hit your deaggro skill?

I wouldn't even bother with those. Just take your average TPS over a decently long (but not too long) window and a) warn if it's over the tank, and b) project a time-till-overtake - under a certain threshold could trigger a deaggro warning or whatever. If you want to track historical crit data, then you could project your maximum potential threat gain for a given period of time, which has some interesting possiblities.

Antiarc · 06/02/07, 3:50 AM

Warrior and druid aggro seems to be lagging behind where it should be by about 10% in long raid fights. If anyone notices anything that might be contributing to this, please ping me about it.

Athinira · 06/02/07, 5:31 AM

Originally Posted by Antiarc

Warrior and druid aggro seems to be lagging behind where it should be by about 10% in long raid fights. If anyone notices anything that might be contributing to this, please ping me about it.

I'n not entirely sure what you mean. Are you saying that druid and warrior agro is LOWER than the value on Omen of higher than the value on Omen?

Antiarc · 06/02/07, 5:43 AM

Originally Posted by Athinira

I'n not entirely sure what you mean. Are you saying that druid and warrior agro is LOWER than the value on Omen of higher than the value on Omen?

Lower than the value. I think I've explained druids - I was looking for Mangle rather than Mangle (Bear). I've corrected that and druids look a lot better already.

I'm testing Lifebloom threat now and it's not exactly doing what I'd expect.

Edit: Athinira, do you know if power gains (rage/energy/mana) are unmodified threat? Proccing Primal Fury gives me +25 threat in KTM, but +36.25 threat in ThreatLib, since I'm modifying power gains by other modifiers - in this case, the 1.45 modifier from bear form.

Edit again: I tested Bloodrage, and it is not modified by stance modifiers/salvation/etc. I'm assuming the same for other gains for now.

Athinira · 06/02/07, 8:50 AM

Power gains aren't affected. As already stated, the same goes for reflected damage from Thorns and similar (only Retribution Aura from paladins with RF active is affected).

Kasrith · 06/02/07, 12:14 PM

I will see about getting my guild to look into this mod as well. I have been playing with it on my own and with a warrior friend testing it out.

Miaxi · 06/02/07, 12:38 PM

I would love a small indicator that displays my rank compared to the tank and changed it's color depending on how close I am to overtaking. Optionally it could give out a warning if I am getting very close.

Zanthor · 06/02/07, 3:03 PM

Profiling smofiling.

I have a raider who's running an older PC and was having huge amounts of trouble getting out of Charred Earth and staying out of the Blizzard in the Shade fight... after some discussion it was due to his machine lag.

I had him turn off KTM and he stopped having problems.

Keep in mind that not everyone runs 50+ FPS systems, some folks are raiding on antique hardware...

I for one am glad to see competitive versions of software - I haven't done extensive testing with KTM vs Threat/Omen yet, but I'm always willing to entertain better performance.

• Chicken · 06/02/07, 3:36 PM

Originally Posted by Miaxi

I would love a small indicator that displays my rank compared to the tank and changed it's color depending on how close I am to overtaking. Optionally it could give out a warning if I am getting very close.

I was personally theorizing about displaying threat in a single bar for DPS classes.

Basically, the bar's 'max health' would be the threat of the person with highest aggro (+10%/30% depending on range to the target), with it's 'current health' being your threat (In other words, if you've got half the tank's threat, we have a half-full bar). Combine this with the bar changing color depending on how high your TPS is compared to the person with highest threat (green being lower, yellow about the same, red meaning you're steadily overtaking), that would probably be a very simple, intuitive threat speed-o-meter.

Any thoughts?

nuno · 06/02/07, 4:03 PM

Originally Posted by Chicken

I was personally theorizing about displaying threat in a single bar for DPS classes.

Basically, the bar's 'max health' would be the threat of the person with highest aggro (+10%/30% depending on range to the target), with it's 'current health' being your threat (In other words, if you've got half the tank's threat, we have a half-full bar). Combine this with the bar changing color depending on how high your TPS is compared to the person with highest threat (green being lower, yellow about the same, red meaning you're steadily overtaking), that would probably be a very simple, intuitive threat speed-o-meter.

Any thoughts?

That's an incredibly cool idea. You could also add in a simple time till overtake timer in the bar, would look nice and very small.

Kyth · 06/02/07, 4:14 PM

Yep, I buried that in one of my posts earlier as my big wishlist display

.

Unfortunately although I'm a programmer by profession, I have none of the knowledge of lua and am just hoping someone else picks up the idea of a very simplified threat view for dps classes.

(it'd be nice to also be able to have the other view up at the same time, but in a separate window I could move. Sometimes I want to know whether the other locks are too high so I can warn them, but so much of the time I just really care 'how close am I to the tank?')

Miaxi · 06/02/07, 4:18 PM

One bar or two bars does not matter. I need mainly one information unless I am raid leading - "can I nuke right now or not?"

Antiarc · 06/02/07, 10:43 PM

Originally Posted by Athinira

As already stated, the same goes for reflected damage from Thorns and similar (only Retribution Aura from paladins with RF active is affected).

This isn't true for thorns, at least. I had a feral druid, 1.45 modifier, aggro a mob and let it reflect one tick of thorns for 25 damage. Unmodified, that's 25 threat; modified, it's 36.25 threat. I then had a mage melee the mob, and it pulled aggro at 40 damage, not at 28 damage like I would expect if it were unmodified threat.

Spazmo · 06/02/07, 11:11 PM

I really think that knowing where everyone is threat-wise is important. As a mage, if I'm over the tank's threat (but with 130%) I want to know whether there's a hunter that's about to pull aggro, feign death and dump the aggro onto me. For reasons like that I think it's best to display everyone's threat. I'm sure with the separation of the UI and the threat library itself we'll be able to get some good interfaces to suit everyone.

rawrz · 06/03/07, 4:02 AM

Originally Posted by Spazmo

I really think that knowing where everyone is threat-wise is important. As a mage, if I'm over the tank's threat (but with 130%) I want to know whether there's a hunter that's about to pull aggro, feign death and dump the aggro onto me. For reasons like that I think it's best to display everyone's threat. I'm sure with the separation of the UI and the threat library itself we'll be able to get some good interfaces to suit everyone.

Huh? A hunter's FD dumps threat, it won't dump it onto you.

TheSilverHand · 06/03/07, 4:16 AM

It won't go straight to you, but if the mob runs to the hunter, and he feigns, then you no longer have the 130% threshold you had before (mob is closer, possibly melee range, thus 110%).

Cragzop · 06/03/07, 4:25 AM

I agree it's sometimes good to see the entire threat list - say you need two tanks at the top or you're going to do a rogue evasion tank series.

What'd I like in Omen is a way to color my threat bar differntly than anyone else's. Yes it's nice that all the bars are color coded by class - but if there are 5 rogues in the 25 man field it's sometimes difficult to find my line ....

Kyth · 06/03/07, 4:36 AM

I was just crashing through mana tombs as alts, but soulshatter (the few times I used it) didn't seem to drop my threat in omen, though it did in KTM.

It should be a 50% threat dump. (against all enemies within 50 yards, but I know that's always going to be a guess.)