Scrub - Raidmember talent scanner (was TalentShow)

◊ Kalman · 12/13/07, 11:39 PM

Some conversations in EJIRC led me to write a mod with the purpose of scanning and analyzing raidmembers' talent specs. Also being bored at work.

Hence, Scrub. Simple little mod designed to:

-Scan the talents of all raid members within range
-Display raidmembers talent triplet and dominant spec in a compact fashion
-Redflag talent builds that are clearly bad for raiding (<11 assassination for rogues, no instant attack for warriors, etc.)
-Yellowflag talent builds that warrant a closer look (>23 disc, hemo, etc - things that may not be total fail, but are atypical)

Slake has more or less taken this over, with my complete blessing. It's on the WoWAce SVN.

Seife · 12/14/07, 1:07 AM

Sounds like a nice idea, thank you for sharing. I will keep tabs on this

Shadowed · 12/14/07, 1:32 AM

Originally Posted by Kalman

Some conversations in EJIRC led me to write a mod with the purpose of scanning and analyzing raidmembers' talent specs. Also being bored at work.

Hence, TalentShow. Simple little mod designed to:

-Scan the talents of all raid members within range
-Display raidmembers talent triplet and dominant spec in a compact fashion

Eventually, I may add highlighting of people who have bad/non-raiding builds (i.e. redflag any rogues without 11 in assassination or who took shadowstep), but right now, it's just a clean way to display your raid and see who forgot to respec after PvP.

This is BETA, and as such may not play nicely with other mods. Spyglass is a known incompatibility. Talented throws errors, but it works fine. It is an Ace2 mod, but the libs are not embedded; if you use other Ace2 mods, you're likely to have everything needed. It is NOT localized. Other raidmembers do not need to be running the mod for it to operate; I'm using the integrated talent inspection functions.

Comments, requests, and most especially bug reports are all appreciated. Once I'm happy with an initial release version, I'll stick it on the SVN; for now you can grab it out of my webspace.

http://radiationnow.net/wow/ui/TalentShow.zip

Just looking through, is their a reason you use InspectUnit instead of NotifyInspect? NotifyInspect will still fire INSPECT_TALENT_READY and won't popup the actual inspection UI. The only range check needed is UnitIsVisible, you can inspect anyone as long as they're within visible range if you do it through NotifyInspect.

◊ Kalman · 12/14/07, 1:36 AM

Not in particular. That'll cut down on the annoyance value of scanning.

edit: Updated version posted with preliminary flagging of spec problems. It isn't going to tell you if someone is really minorly off, but it'll alert you to PvP specs (yellow, generally) and terrible specs (Surge of Light). It also now colors names by class.

• Binkenstein · 12/14/07, 3:13 AM

I'd make the following suggestions for Ele/Resto

Yellow:
1,10 (eye of the storm, not much of a pve talent) if # >1 (can be used as a one point filler)
1,14 >0 (silence reduction is situational at best, more of a pvp talent)
Red:
1,5 (call of flame, does not affect ToW, which is our best ele totem) #>0 if v>30
1,9 (imp fire totems, nova/magma situational at best) #>0
1,21 (ToW) <1 if v>30
3,6 >1 if v>30
3,8 <1

Add to your NS/NB check 3,15 3,16 and 3,19

semi · 12/14/07, 3:52 AM

What I've been asking for (but in the wrong places) since the inspect changes is auto inspecting on mouse over + caching, and then relevant spec info in tooltips. It seems the last time I updated something is now putting talents in my tooltips (CowTips doing it natively I assume), now the only thing left is fishing out the relevant info and putting it there to.

By relevant info, I mean things you tend to ask your raid, f.e:

Which warlock has which healthstone? If you're affliction, are you malediction? shadow embrace?
Which priest has divine spirit? Circle of healing?

And I'm sure others can come up with more. Basically, once you know a spec, what important talent do you want to know at a glance, mostly for the purpose of managing pug raids or dealing with guildies that respec a lot.

◊ Kalman · 12/14/07, 10:07 AM

CowTip does it, but only if the target is also running an appropriate library (one of the Rock libs, presumably). That's not what this mod is for, nor will it be for.

That said: while DS/CoH are pretty obvious, if you can think of a *good* way to work display of information of the sort you're looking for into the compact display I'm currently using, I'd consider it.

• Kalroth · 12/14/07, 11:01 AM

A few warrior things for "highlighting of people who have bad/non-raiding builds", since you were too tired to add warrior failures in your addon. :-)

Arms, first 17 points (usually 17/44)
  * RED. Improved Rend. What .. the .. fuck?
  * RED. Deep Wounds without Impale. Yes, I've actually seen this.
Arms, 31+ points
  * YELLOW. No Blood Frenzy? Fuck off!
  * YELLOW. Improved Hamstring, worthless in PvE.
  * YELLOW. Improved Disciplines, worthless in both PvP and PvE.
  * RED. No Mortal Strike? What .. the .. fuck?
  * YELLOW. Improved Mortal Strike, worthless in both PvP and PvE.
  * YELLOW. Endless Rage, worthless in both PvP and PvE.

Fury, first 28-30 points (common in both fury and arms specs
  * YELLOW. Booming Voice, worthless in PvE. Stop being a slacker.
  * RED. Not 5/5 in Cruelty. What the fuck?
  * YELLOW. Improved Cleave, worthless in both PvP and PvE. No, don't try to argue it.
  * YELLOW. Blood Craze, worthless in PvE.
  * RED. Enrage, but no Flurry points at all. Yes, I've actually seen this.
    You should check for at least 3 points in Flurry, if any points in Enrage.
Fury, 31+ points
  * RED. No Bloodthirst. What .. the .. fuck?
  * YELLOW. Not 5/5 in Improved Berserker Stance. What the fuck?

Protection, first 15 points (usually 41/5/15 or 5/41/15)
  * RED. No Last Stand? What the fuck.
  * RED. No Defiance? What the fuck.
  * YELLOW. No Improved Shield Block? What the fuck.
Protection, 31+ points
  * YELLOW. Improved Disarm, worthless in PvE.
  * RED. No Shield Slam? What the fuck.
  * YELLOW. No Focused Rage? What the fuck.
  * YELLOW. No Improved Defensive Stance? What the fuck.
  * RED. No Vitality? What the fuck.
  * RED. No Devastate? What .. the .. fuck?

Changelog:
- Removed Imp Shieldwall and Imp Bloodrage from the list.
- Removed One-Handed Weapon Specialization from the list. Turns out a lot of people likes prot builds without it.

mikebro · 12/14/07, 1:00 PM

Originally Posted by Kalroth

A few warrior things for "highlighting of people who have bad/non-raiding builds", since you were too tired to add warrior failures in your addon. :-)

* YELLOW. Improved Disciplines, worthless in both PvP and PvE.

Now that Weapon Mastery is in the Fury tree and Improved Intercept is in its place, having 2 points in Improved Disciplines is actually probably the best alternative for raiding.

How in depth do you plan on going with the talent analyzing? Just flagging basic things like "No 31 point instant attack = Red Flag, Has Blood Craze = Yellow Flag." or things like "If >= 31 points in Arms and not 3 points in Flurry, Red Flag. If >31 points in Fury and not 5 points in Flurry, Red Flag, etc..."

I am a bit afraid of overzealous raid leaders and members using this to scan every single raid and going berserk whenever a yellow flag pops up just because the mod says so when they really have little to no knowledge of that class talent tree. Not in my guild, but you know... I've seen stranger things happen in random Kara pugs formed in Trade chat.

◊ Kalman · 12/14/07, 2:29 PM

Red is flat out stupidity, yellow just means take a closer look (i.e. inspect their talents yourself).

I thought about the overzealous raid leaders and members and decided that I'm okay with that. Most of these things really aren't useful in a PvE sense. I'm not redflagging anything that isn't acceptable in a PvP/PvE spec, so that shouldn't be an issue.

◊ Gwaihir · 12/14/07, 3:14 PM

Sweet tool, and opportune timing- I had a paladin show up to Bloodboil this last wednesday who somehow managed to put 41 points in Holy and not get Light's Grace.

◊ manly · 12/14/07, 3:24 PM

ARCANE TREE
---------------
RED - any points in 'imp. arcane missiles' without 3/3 'empowered arcane missiles'
YELLOW - less than 2 points in arcane subtlety (almost all specs run this, with -very few- exceptions)
RED - any points in the talent 'wand specialisation'
YELLOW - anything other than 0 or max points in the talents: 'imp. arcane missiles', 'arcane concentration', 'arcane impact', 'imp. counterspell', 'arcane meditation', 'arcane mind', 'arcane instability', 'arcane potency', 'spell power', 'empowered arcane missiles', 'mind mastery'
RED - 21+ points without 'presence of mind'
RED - 31+ points without 'arcane power'
YELLOW - 33+ points without 2/2 'spell power'
YELLOW - 40+ points without 5/5 'mind mastery'

FIRE TREE
------------
YELLOW - 6+ points without 5/5 'imp. fireball'
YELLOW - any points in 'imp. fire ward'
RED - 10+ points without 5/5 'ignite'
(YELLOW - 21+ points without 'blastwave') -- very debatable
RED - 30+ points without 5/5 'fire power'
RED - 31+ points without 'combustion'
RED - 36+ points without either 3/3 'pyromaniac' and 2/2 'molten fury' (ie: you need both talents maxed out at 36+ points to make sense)
RED - 40+ points without 5/5 'empowered fireball'

FROST TREE
-------------
RED - 11+ points without 'icy veins'
RED - 12+ points without 5/5 'imp. frostbolt'
YELLOW - 12+ points with any points in 'imp. frost warding'
YELLOW - 21+ points without 'cold snap'
YELLOW - 31+ points without 'ice barrier'
RED - 40+ points without 5/5 'empowered frostbolt'
RED - 41+ points without 'summon water elemental'
YELLOW - 25+ points with 0-1-2 points in 'winter's chill'
RED - less than 5/5 'ice shards' while having 1+ points in 'shatter' (ie: shatter with no ice shard is stupid)
RED - 30+ points without 5/5 'ice shards' (ie: winter's chill is mandatory at that point, and winter's chill without ice shard is stupid)

Docjowles · 12/14/07, 3:30 PM

Edit: Manly basically covered everything I was going to say.

Unaz · 12/14/07, 6:38 PM

Originally Posted by Binkenstein

I'd make the following suggestions for Ele/Resto

Yellow:
1,10 (eye of the storm, not much of a pve talent) if # >1 (can be used as a one point filler)
1,14 >0 (silence reduction is situational at best, more of a pvp talent)
Red:
1,5 (call of flame, does not affect ToW, which is our best ele totem) #>0 if v>30
1,9 (imp fire totems, nova/magma situational at best) #>0
1,21 (ToW) <1 if v>30
3,6 >1 if v>30
3,8 <1

Add to your NS/NB check 3,15 3,16 and 3,19

I wouldn't exactly red flag some of the fire totem talents, maybe yellow. They still have their uses on some fights, or could possibly be fillers. It's slightly dumb yeah, but if you go by the philosophy of "do they have needed talents", that may be the better watermark. I wrote up something a while ago for the shamans in my guild for talent specs (which needs updating since the last round of talent changes), with each spec and a "you need this" along with "you better not have these ever".

I also like Focused Mind quite a bit, as there are still enough fights that I run into with some sort of silence. And trash with shield bash etc as well.

(I think your number for ToW is wrong, I count it as 20, not 21)

Here's what I usually evaluate on:

Resto:
- Red Flags:
-- [<3] Ancestral Healing (3,5) (This could possibly be yellow)
-- [>0] Nature's Guidance (3,6)
-- [<5] Healing Focus (3,7)
-- [<1] Nature's Swiftness (3,13)
-- [<5] Purification (3,15)
-- [<1] Mana Tide (3,16)
-- [<1] Earth Shield (3,20)
-- Anything in Elemental (1,*)
-- Anything past tier 2 Enh (2,5+)
- Yellow Flags:
-- [<3] Healing Grace (3,9)
-- [<2] Imp Chain Heal (3,19) (This could be a red flag)
-- [<5] Ancestral Knowledge (2,1)
-- [>0] Shield Spec (2,2) (Better spent in resto)
-- [>0] Imp LS (2,6)

Elemental:
- Red Flags:
-- [<5] Concussion (1,2)
-- [<1] Elemental Focus (1,6)
-- [>0] Elemental Devastation (1,11)
-- [<2] Unrelenting Storm (1,14) (2 points are needed in this for next tier, less means they used a shitty talent for filler)
-- [<3] Elemental Precision (1,15)
-- [<5] Lightning Mastery (1,16)
-- [<1] Elemental Mastery (1,17)
-- [<1] Totem of Wrath (1,20)
-- [<3] Nature's Guidance (3,6)
-- [>0] Healing Grace (3,9)
-- [>0] Shield Spec (2,2) (Better spent in resto)
- Yellow Flags:
-- [<5] Convection (1,1)
-- [>1] Earth's Grasp (1,3) (People may use this for a filler)
-- [>1] Reverberation (1,7) (People may use this for a filler)
-- [>0] Eye of the Storm (1,10) (PvP Talent)
-- [<2] Storm Reach (1,12)
-- [>0] Elemental Shields (1,18) (PvP Talent)
-- [<1] Totemic Focus (3,8)
-- [<5] Tidal Mastery (3,11)

Enhancement:
- Red Flags:
-- [>0] Shield Spec (2,2)
-- [<2] Enhancing Totems (2,7)
-- [>3] Anticipation (2,9) (Possible Filler Talent)
-- [<5] Flurry (2,10)
-- [>0] Toughness (2,11)
-- [<3] Mental Quickness (2,15)
-- [<5] Weapon Mastery (2,16)
-- [<3] DW Spec (2,17)
-- [<1] Stormstrike (2,19)
-- [<5] Unleashed Rage (2,20)
-- [<1] Shamanistic Rage (2,21)
-- [>0] Earth's Grasp (1,3)
-- [>0] Elemental Focus (1,6)
-- [>0] Ancestral Healing (3,4)
-- Anything past Reverberation in Elemental (1,8+)
-- Anything past Totemic Mastery in Resto (3,9+)
- Yellow Flags:
-- [<1] Shamanistic Focus (2,8)
-- [<2] Imp Weapon Totems (2,12)
-- [<3] Nature's Guidance (3,6) (Likely means they went down ele instead, generally accepted as inferior, but a semi viable choice)
-- [<1] Totemic Mastery (3,8) (Same as Nature's Guidance)

• Binkenstein · 12/14/07, 8:19 PM

Originally Posted by Unaz

TL;DR

If you have ToW, there is no point in either of the fire totem talents.
This is probably best put to the Elemental thread, rather than farting around in here discussing talent values.

http://elitistjerks.com/576943-post483.html

• Snowy · 12/14/07, 8:47 PM

Uhh... why would a Resto build get redflagged for anything in elemental? Is there something I'm missing about 8/0/53 builds or is Gurgthock just a retard? :P (Elemental Warding is good. No, seriously, it is.)

Follow · 12/14/07, 9:30 PM

Originally Posted by Gwaihir

Sweet tool, and opportune timing- I had a paladin show up to Bloodboil this last wednesday who somehow managed to put 41 points in Holy and not get Light's Grace.

I think I died a little inside that night.

This should be really handy to help with the weeding process.

Enova · 12/14/07, 10:41 PM

Well, since nobody seems to know how talents are supposed to work for hunters, I wrapped up a few flags for you. Of course it is just my opinion, so I don't want to impose it into your add-on. However, it's a hunter's thoughts on hunter specs, at least give it a look. Anybody has other opinions, by all means, I live to learn

Beast Mastery (<=30 points)

RED: IF NO 2/2 Focused Fire
RED: =>1/3 Improved Aspect of the Monkey
RED: =>1/2 Pathfinding
RED: IF NO 5/5 Ferocity FOR points in Beast Mastery =>20
YELLOW: =>1/2 Spirit Bond
RED: IF NO 5/5 Frenzy FOR points in Beast Mastery =>30

Beast Mastery (>30 points)

RED: IF NO Intimidation
RED: <1/2 Animal Handler IF 3/3 Ferocious Inspiration
RED: IF NO 2/2 Animal Handler FOR points in Beast Mastery >31 AND <3/3 Ferocious Inspiration
RED: IF NO 5/5 Serpent's Swiftness FOR points in Beast Mastery >35 (No shit, that's why you go Beast Mastery for...)
RED: IF NO Bestial Wrath FOR points in Beast Mastery >30
RED: IF NO The Beast Within FOR points in Beast Mastery >40 (actually, i was thinking to remove the FOR points... requirement... you spend 30+ in BM, get this)

Marksmanship (<=30 points)

RED: IF NO 5/5 Lethal Shots (currently, every raid build should have this; flag red by default  regardless of points in Marksmanship perhaps)
RED: IF NO 5/5 Mortal Shots (currently, every raid build should have this; flag red by default, IF spec is not x/20+/x perhaps)
RED: IF NO Aimed shot (required for Mortal Shots)
YELLOW: =>1/5 Improved stings FOR <=20 points in Marksmanship
RED: => 1/5 Concussive Barrage (Major fail, even in a PVP build; This should have a /gkick flag on)
RED: IF NO 5/5 Ranged Weapon Specialization FOR =>30 points in Marksmanship
YELLOW: IF NO 5/5 Efficiency OR NO 5/5 Hunter's Mark (NO 5/5 tier 2 talents; better stack on one instead of going half way on both or getting improved concussive shot)
RED: => 1/5 Improved Concussive Shot (Definite No-No)
YELLOW: IF NO 2/2 Go for the throat AND NO 2/2 Rapid Killing. (Not that bad as a full MM; have someone check it out for 41/20/0 or 0/20/41)

Marksmanship (>30 points)

YELLOW: NO Trueshot Aura (it may be weak, but no reason not to take it)
RED: IF NO 5/5 Master Marksman FOR points in Marksman >35
RED: IF NO 3/3 Careful Aim FOR points in Marksmanship >30 (You'll get intellect on your gear, that's for sure - use it wisely)

Not sure about this, but
YELLOW: IF NO 2/2 Combat Experience


Survival (<=30 points)

RED: => 1/2 Savage Strikes (Definite No-No)
RED: => 1/3 Improved Wing Clip (PVE IS NOT PVP)
YELLOW: 1/1 Deterrence
RED: 1/1 Counterattack
YELLOW: > 1/2 Trap Mastery (Don't argue; you can't trap raid bosses; 2/2 is overkill for everything else)
RED: IF NO 3/3 Killer Instinct FOR points in Survival >20
YELLOW: NO 2/2 Survival Instincts FOR points in Survival >23
RED: IF NO 5/5 Lightning Reflexes FOR points in Survival =>30
RED: => 1/5 Deflection
RED: IF NO 3/3 Surefooted FOR points in Survival >15 (You spend 15 points in survival, that means you're either stopping there or going full survival. Surefooted is wort all 18 points)
RED: IF 1/3 OR 2/3 Hawk Eye. (It's a bloody first tier. Either 3/3 or nothing. Major idiot check)

Survival (>30 points)

RED: < 2/3 Expose Weakness
YELLOW: IF NO 3/3 Expose Weakness FOR points in survival >35 AND NO Readiness
RED: IF NO 3/3 Thrill of the Hunt FOR points in Survival >35
RED: IF Scatter Shot AND NO Readiness.

EDIT: Here's a couple of flags for warriors, as well, I know I've encountered those in guild apps on my realm

RED: =>1/5 Two Handed Weapon Specialization AND =>1/5 Dual Wield Specialization
RED: Mortal Strike AND <2/2 Improved Slam
RED: points in more than one weapon class Specialization (mace, sword, poleaxe)
RED: Bloodthirst AND => 1/5 Two Handed Weapon Specialization

Lazare · 12/14/07, 11:44 PM

Here's a stab for priests:

Holy:
- Red Flags:
-- [<5] Divine Fury (2,5)
-- [>0] Blessed Recover (2,7)
-- [<3] Improved Healing (2,10)
-- [>0] Improved Healing (2,11)
-- [<1] Spirit of Redemption (2,13)
-- [<5] Spiritual Guidance (2,14)
-- [>0] Surge of Light (2,15)
-- [<5] Spiritual Healing (2,16)
-- [>0] Blessed Resilience (2,19)
-- [<3] Empowered Healing (2,20)
-- [<1] Inner Focus (1,8)
-- [<3] Meditation (1,9)

-- [>5] Deeper than T1 in shadow tree (3,3+)
-- [>23] Deeper than Imp DS in disc tree (1,16+)

-If < 39 points in Holy then red flag:
-- [<1] Divine Spirit (1,14)
-- [<2] Improved Divine Spirit (1,15)

-If > 38 points in Holy then red flag:
-- [<5] Empowered Healing (2,20)

-If >40 points in Holy then red flag:
-- [<1] Circle of Healing

- Yellow Flags:
-- [<2] Healing Focus (2,1)
-- [<3] Improved Renew (2,2)
-- [<3] Inspiration (2,8)
-- [<3] Holy Concentration (2,17)
-- [<2] Improved Power Word: Fortitude (1,4)

Shadow:
- Red Flags:
-- [<3] Shadow Affinity (3,3) 
-- [<2] Improved Shadow Word: Pain (3,4)
-- [<1] Mind Flay (3,8)
-- [<1] Mind Flay (3,8)
-- [>0] Improved Fade (3,9)
-- [<3] Shadow Weaving (3,11)
-- [<1] Vampiric Embrace (3,13)
-- [<3] Focused Mind (3,15)
-- [>0] Shadow Resilience (3,16)
-- [<5] Darkness (3,17)
-- [<1] Shadowform (3,18)
-- [<5] Misery (3,20)
-- [<1] Vampiric Touch (3,21)

If Silence (3,12) is NOT taken then:
-- [>0] Improved Psychic Scream (3,6)

-- [>14] Deeper than Meditation and Inner Focus in disc tree (1,10+)
-- [>0] Points in holy tree (2,1+)

- Yellow Flags:
-- [<2] Improved Power Word: Fortitude (1,4)
-- [<1] Inner Focus (1,9)
-- [<3] Meditation (1,9)
-- [<2] Shadow Reach (3,10)
-- [>0] Silence (3,12)
-- [<5] Shadow Power (3,19)

Discipline:
- Red Flags
-- Being discipline spec.  :)

Some of the red flag stuff could be yellow flags, arguably. I think that's close, unless I made any errors...

Should weed out any obvious retardation or pvp builds, but isn't too strict.

One point I'm not sure of is I suggested yellow flagging Silence. It is a pvp talent, but it's not completely without pve utility, and you don't gimp yourself too badly taking it. I think a yellow flag would be about right, but some might disagree.

I also ignored the Shadow Focus, since the proper number of points is gear dependent. If you allow the addon to count up hit rating, then checking to make sure that they have an appropriate number of points in Shadow Focus would be very nice - although many priests swap in hit gear just for boss fights, so...probably not feasible.

• Binkenstein · 12/15/07, 1:19 AM

Originally Posted by Snowy

Uhh... why would a Resto build get redflagged for anything in elemental? Is there something I'm missing about 8/0/53 builds or is Gurgthock just a retard? :P (Elemental Warding is good. No, seriously, it is.)

Because he's got a few things wrong (actually, when I think about it, there are alot of things wrong).

Kelfar · 12/15/07, 3:21 AM

Originally Posted by manly

ARCANE TREE
---------------
RED - any points in 'imp. arcane missiles' without 3/3 'empowered arcane missiles'
YELLOW - less than 2 points in arcane subtlety (almost all specs run this, with -very few- exceptions)
RED - any points in the talent 'wand specialisation'
YELLOW - anything other than 0 or max points in the talents: 'imp. arcane missiles', 'arcane concentration', 'arcane impact', 'imp. counterspell', 'arcane meditation', 'arcane mind', 'arcane instability', 'arcane potency', 'spell power', 'empowered arcane missiles', 'mind mastery'
RED - 21+ points without 'presence of mind'
RED - 31+ points without 'arcane power'
YELLOW - 33+ points without 2/2 'spell power'
YELLOW - 40+ points without 5/5 'mind mastery'

FIRE TREE
------------
YELLOW - 5+ points without 5/5 'imp. fireball' (could be a pvp spec with only 5 points in impact, although unlikely)
YELLOW - any points in 'imp. fire ward'
RED - 10+ points without 5/5 'ignite'
(YELLOW - 21+ points without 'blastwave') -- very debatable
RED - 30+ points without 5/5 'fire power'
RED - 31+ points without 'combustion'
RED - 36+ points without either 3/3 'pyromaniac' and 2/2 'molten fury' (ie: you need both talents maxed out at 36+ points to make sense)
RED - 40+ points without 5/5 'empowered fireball'

FROST TREE
-------------
RED - 11+ points without 'icy veins'
RED - 12+ points without 5/5 'imp. frostbolt'
YELLOW - 12+ points with any points in 'imp. frost warding'
YELLOW - 21+ points without 'cold snap'
YELLOW - 31+ points without 'ice barrier'
RED - 40+ points without 5/5 'empowered frostbolt'
RED - 41+ points without 'summon water elemental'
YELLOW - 25+ points with 0-1-2 points in 'winter's chill'
RED - less than 5/5 'ice shards' while having 1+ points in 'shatter' (ie: shatter with no ice shard is stupid)
RED - 30+ points without 5/5 'ice shards' (ie: winter's chill is mandatory at that point, and winter's chill without ice shard is stupid)

One thing I would add is

Yellow - Any points in Arcane Fortitude

300 extra armor isn't going to make a different in raids.

Schnappi · 12/15/07, 9:31 AM

Originally Posted by Kalroth

* YELLOW. Improved Bloodrage? Just no.
* YELLOW. Improved Shield Wall, worthless in PvE. No, don't try to argue it.

To reach the bottom of the Protection tree you at least 1 point in either of those 2 or in Improved Taunt. I dont really see a reason as to why the quoted 2 are far worse than taunt.

Heysues · 12/15/07, 6:18 PM

I might have been the paladin that showed up without lights grace....respecing at 1:00am FTL....

• Chicken · 12/15/07, 6:40 PM

Some more thinking in the Pally direction:

Holy:

Divine Strength - Yellow Flag, unless there's 41 points in Ret.
Pure of Heart - Red Flag if there's any points in it.
Light's Grace - If there's at least 30 points in Holy, Red Flag if this isn't 3/3.

Protection:

Redoubt - Yellow flag unless someone has >30 points in Protection.
Improved Righteous Fury - Red Flag if someone has >30 points in Protection and this isn't 3/3.
Sacred Duty - Red Flag if someone has >30 points in Protection and this isn't 2/2.
Holy Shield - Red Flag if someone has >30 points in Protection and this isn't taken. Same for 2/2 Improved Holy Shield.
Ardent Defender - Yellow Flag if this isn't full on >41 points in Protection.
Combat Expertise - Yellow Flag if this isn't full on >30 points in Protection.

Retribution:

Deflection - Yellow flag if points taken in it unless someone has >30 points in Protection.
Vindication - Yellow Flag if any points are in this; it's useless in raids.
Eye for an Eye - Yellow flag if any points are in this; it's useless in raids.
Improved Sanctity Aura - If over 25 points in Ret and this isn't taken, yellow flag.
Vengeance - If points in Retribution >= 30 and this isn't 5/5, red flag.
Divine Purpose - Yellow flag if any points are in this.
Fanatacism - If this isn't there when there's at least 40 points in Retribution, red flag.
Crusader Strike - If someone has 41 points in Retribution and doesn't have this, red flag.

Pater · 12/15/07, 6:54 PM

Just an idea for modularity--put the redflag/yellowflag libraries in a separate file. This might allow people to create and share their own.