Scrub - Raidmember talent scanner (was TalentShow) - Page 9

Binkenstein · 12/29/07, 1:19 AM

Checking shaman stuff

check("Elemental Filler Talents",		RED,	function (talents) return talents:rank(1, 5) + talents:rank(1, 7) + talents:rank(1, 10) > 1; end);

This line should read

check("Elemental Filler Talents",		RED,	function (talents) return (talents:spent(1) >= 21) and talents:rank(1, 7) + talents:rank(1, 10) > 1; end);

This is because 1,5 is imp fire totems, which should never be taken (there are better places to spend points if you aren't elemental, and ToW isn't affected if you are).
Thusly

check("Call of Flame",				YELLOW,	function (talents) return talents:rank(1,  5) > 1; end);

should be

check("Call of Flame",				RED,	function (talents) return talents:rank(1,  5) > 0; end);

The elemental mastery check should be removed, and replaced with a EM+US <4 check, as it's debatable whether EM is worth more for PvE than a fourth US point

_Thebob_ · 12/29/07, 4:20 AM

This Addon looks like it has promise.

Originally Posted by Quigon

You should almost never use HS in a situation where rage is a concern. If rage is not a concern, with modern expertise changes, threat should not be a concern either.

I completely agree with Quigon here, I am not sure why one would get flagged for deciding not to get a rage saving talent for a pure rage dump ability.

Originally Posted by Quigon

If you are speccing for aggro, you'd have 5/5 cruelty.
If you are speccing for mitigation, you'd have 5/5 IDS which would imply 5/5 cruelty.

Either way, you should have 5/5 cruelty. I don't know how much "opinion" really weighs into this - unless you're not min/maxing.

I disagree here though, I personally always spec in 5/5 cruelty, but not sure a protection spec. should be flagged for it. And getting 5/5 IDS is huge for a raid, but only 1 warrior needs it. And A MT or OT certainly shouldn't get IDS if a Fury warrior is in the raid.

Reliknom · 12/29/07, 6:03 AM

I don't know if this has been brought up before, but last night, using the addon the first time in a raid, I've noticed two strange things:

First a 41-0-20 holy-retribution pala spec showed up as partial retribution and had yellow flags for not taking some retri talents. Meanwhile a 41-20-0 holy-protection spec was marked pvp holy spec, as it should be. So why not call the 41-0-20 spec also holy, and have checks for the holy tree?

Second was a red flag for my talent: 8-4-49 protection warrior. The red flag said I didn't take cruelty (it was 4/5). So why is 5/5 cruelty a requirement for the MT? I've taken all mitigation talents and better agro talents than cruelty in the prot tree. While 0/5 cruelty might be worth a yellow flag, no talents in the fury tree should give a red flag for a prot spec, as there are viable alternatives in both the prot and arms trees.

P.S. Just thought of another thing: Yellow flagging guardian totems for enhancement shamans as pvp talent is also highly suspicious. The are no PvE talents as far as I know to put those two points into and guardian totems may be even useful for putting down grounding totems faster, especially in the MT group.

• Slake · 12/29/07, 5:20 PM

Originally Posted by Reliknom

First a 41-0-20 holy-retribution pala spec showed up as partial retribution and had yellow flags for not taking some retri talents.

It was flagged as 'Partial Retribution Spec' because you shouldn't (to my knowledge) be halfway-speccing into the Ret tree. Much like shadow priests, there's no reason to take many points in the tree unless you are going full out. The partial ret spec check is checking if they've put more than 8 points in the tree without putting at least 41 in. What could he possibly be getting out of 20 points in ret that's worth taking over points in the prot tree?

Originally Posted by Reliknom

Second was a red flag for my talent: 8-4-49 protection warrior. The red flag said I didn't take cruelty (it was 4/5).

The cruelty check was restricted to non-protection specs in the latest version.

Originally Posted by Reliknom

Yellow flagging guardian totems for enhancement shamans as pvp talent is also highly suspicious. The are no PvE talents as far as I know to put those two points into and guardian totems may be even useful for putting down grounding totems faster, especially in the MT group.

Fair enough, I'll remove the Guardian Totems check.

Grizlor · 12/30/07, 12:44 AM

Originally Posted by Reliknom

P.S. Just thought of another thing: Yellow flagging guardian totems for enhancement shamans as pvp talent is also highly suspicious. The are no PvE talents as far as I know to put those two points into and guardian totems may be even useful for putting down grounding totems faster, especially in the MT group.

To my knowledge there is no encounter that benefits from guardian totems. You can get every shock blast on Vashj with completely untalented 15s grounding, and even with 4 piece resto arena and guardian totems you can't get every frost shock on Tidalvess.

Reliknom · 12/30/07, 6:22 AM

Well, there is quite some movement in Vashj P3, so there is some benefit inthe higher availability of the grounding totem. And catching more frost shocks on FLK is also (much) more beneficial, than having improved ghost wolf or lightning shield.

I undeerstand why there is a check for partial retribution, what I really missed was the checks on the 41 point in the holy tree, which were disabled because of the retri check. (BTW the pala in question was specced thus because we've been in farming mode for quite some time, optimal raiding specs are not a requirement anymore, but farming and solo PvP are still going strong.)

• Slake · 12/30/07, 5:17 PM

You're confusing the meta check for a partial spec with the individual talent checks. If someone has up to x points in the tree, generally all the talent checks for talents available with that many points get checked. These are mostly the simple "did you go 31 points in the tree and not get the 31 point talent?" or "do you have any points in x?" checks. The meta checks are more cohesive overall-spec checks.

In your specific example, just because the meta check flagged his build for having a partial retribution spec doesn't stop the holy tree checks from firing. If you didn't see any other reports, that means that none of the holy tree checks flagged him. In other words, his holy spec is fine, but he has too many points in ret for an (optimal) raiding build.

uthavin · 12/30/07, 9:28 PM

Pardon me if i use any strange grammar or miss spell some words. My mother tongue is not English.

I installed Scrub last night I raid, and I noticed that a holy priest will be red flagged if he or she does not pick Spirit of Redemption. In my opinion, Spirit of Redemption is good for a holy priest, but its not really a MUST-HAVE talent.

For example : Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

This is a CoH build which is focus on maximum efficiency of CoH. Moving 2 talent points from Spirit of Redemption and Holy Specialization(or Lightwell) to Holy Reach for larger radius of CoH. When a priest has a mp5-heavy gear, the spirit bonus gains from Spirit of Redemption is quite small. So, Spirit of Redemption is just a so-so talent for him or her. Just like Holy Reach, it's useful, but not crucial, and points are there for switching around.

So, i would like to suggest give it a yellow flag if someone does not pick up Spirit of Redemption, or just remove the check for Spirit of Redemption. Because if he or she doesn't pick one of these talents, then there are no other raid-related talents to choose. That means Scrub will notice someone pick up a pvp/solo talent.

Lazare · 12/30/07, 10:14 PM

uthavin: That's not a great idea, IMHO. I'm not sure its worth a red flag, but you are doing suboptimal things. Two points:

1) You say you have moved points from SoR to Holy Reach, but you haven't really. You can't move points from Holy Reach into SoR - it's too high in the tree. Maybe you meant Healing Prayers?

2) SoR is a great talent; I'd recommend dropping a point out of Spiritual Guidance, Healing Prayers, or Mental Agility. If as you say, you have very little spirit, SoR has a limited effect, but 1 point of Spiritual Guidance will have almost zero effect. Or if you're focused on CoH efficiency, Healing Prayers doesn't actually help you...again, SoR would be the better talent. (And, as a meta point, with the changes to Meditation in 2.3, spirit is a valuable stat. A priest with so little spirit that SoR is not a good talent is something of a concern in and of itself.

)

Edit: With 400 spirit raid buffed, SoR is worth 12.5 mp5 outside of the FSR. Assume you spend 75% of your time inside the FSR, 3/3 Meditation, and no PMC, and SoR works out to ~6 mp5 by my calculations. With the same spirit total, one point in Spiritual Guidance would be worth 20 +healing. Assuming you value 1 mp5 as being worth at least ~3.4 healing, then SoR is better than the 5th point of Spiritual Guidance. (For reference, most priests in my experience use [Royal Nightseye] instead of [Teardrop Living Ruby], which implies 1 mp5 is worth at least 4.5 healing.)

Malan · 12/31/07, 12:10 AM

Originally Posted by Reliknom

P.S. Just thought of another thing: Yellow flagging guardian totems for enhancement shamans as pvp talent is also highly suspicious. The are no PvE talents as far as I know to put those two points into and guardian totems may be even useful for putting down grounding totems faster, especially in the MT group.

Yah that's not something anyone should be flagged for, those are 2 points that basically worthless in that tier of the tree. You either take 2% dodge which gets you out of a pve whirlwind here and there, or you take grounding totem that gives a smidgen more survivability outside the raids in pvp. Either way its not changing how well you DPS or support your group.

Nite_Moogle · 12/31/07, 12:02 PM

Flagging Warriors as yellow for not having Improved Heroic Strike when there are exactly 8 points spent in Arms is pretty stupid. Taking 5/5 Deflection and 3/3 Improved TC is extremely common and there aren't enough points in a deep prot build to take both.

Malan · 12/31/07, 12:09 PM

I don't know that some of these choices are "stupid" at all. Its a yellow flag - the text in the flag just needs to really support the WHY its being flagged. In the case of the warrior flag it might say something like 'have another warrior focus on improved TC' or whatever. Yellow flags aren't the end of the world as I see it, as long as there is a good explanation for the flag in the mod.

Unaz · 12/31/07, 12:28 PM

Originally Posted by Malan

The only time that Healing Grace is of any use is if your shaman is dropping a huge bomb of a heal at the very beginning of an encounter. Its not worth the three points, that talent was thrown in before 2.0 back when shaman really *could* pull aggro on certain encounters. Its a non issue these days, nobody should be flagged for not taking that talent.

I've had sub-par shamans with aggro problems, which is why I asked for it to be a Yellow check, I don't really see what the issue is with making it such. On fights with adds (Vashj, Akama) or trash, or any fight with aggro resets, it very definitely is a good thing to have. Good players don't need it, which is the whole point of the Yellow check.

• Slake · 12/31/07, 5:17 PM

1.1.4 (57737 on svn)
- SHAMAN: Tweaked Elemental Filler check
- SHAMAN: Call of Flame check changed to red severity
- SHAMAN: Elemental Mastery check will only flag when Unrelenting Storm has less than four ranks
- SHAMAN: Guardian Totems check removed
- WARRIOR: Improved Heroic Strike check removed

Gumma · 12/31/07, 10:03 PM

I'm really glad to see the imp HS removed! Thanks!

Gearknight · 01/01/08, 12:39 PM

Scrub is flagging "Partial Marksmanship Specs" for Hunters, such as 0/31/30, while Howitzer recommends those specs for some people:

Originally Posted by Howitzer

Recommended "Hybrid" build for PVE:

3) 0/36/25 Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft
---< or >---
4) 0/31/30 Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

These two specs are excellent for Hunters that enjoy the playstyle of Marksmanship but do NOT have the gear to support it. It improves your gaps in gear in the following areas:

a) Lack of Hit-Rating
b) Lack of Crit percentage
c) Lack of Hit Points

While you will not have as much attack power as a full MM spec and will not have bigger numbers you will have a much higher chance to hit and will crit much more often. Both of these builds play similar but obviously the 31/30 build will shine better with a higher amount of agility while 36/25 will be better if you have a high INT count on your gear. I would say choose one of them depending on where you stand in terms of itemization. You can use these talent specs until you find yourself comfortable enough to move to a full marks build. The choice is yours. Obviously some of the talent choices are personal preference. You're always going to have a little "filler" in terms of early tier survival talents like savage strikes vs imp. wing clip or entrapment. All this is up to YOU. But the core abilities related to DPS shouldn't change.

Also, here's a feature request (kinda a big one): Could scrub have a 2nd tab which shows a list of who has which utility and buff talents, sorta like this:

Improved Hunter's Mark: Bob, Jim
0/2 Healthstone: Kelly, Sally
1/2 Healthstone: Nobody
2/2 Healthstone: Teresa
Improved Blessing of Might: Jason
Improved Mark of the Wild: Wanda
etc.

Scrub is already gathering the information for this, and a display like that could be pretty handy.

Feist-Mok · 01/01/08, 2:10 PM

Originally Posted by Gearknight

Also, here's a feature request (kinda a big one): Could scrub have a 2nd tab which shows a list of who has which utility and buff talents, sorta like this:

Improved Hunter's Mark: Bob, Jim
0/2 Healthstone: Kelly, Sally
1/2 Healthstone: Nobody
2/2 Healthstone: Teresa
Improved Blessing of Might: Jason
Improved Mark of the Wild: Wanda
etc.

Scrub is already gathering the information for this, and a display like that could be pretty handy.

If this is outside of the scope of scrub, I'd love to see a new addon with just this feature.

Lazak · 01/02/08, 6:03 AM

Originally Posted by Slake

A few quick warlock notes:

Demonology
Red: Any points in (2, 5) Improved Voidwalker
Red: Any points in (2, 7) Improved Succubus
Yellow: >=13 points in tree without 3/3 (2, 10) Demonic Aegis
Red: Any points in (2, 12) Unholy Power without (2, 22) Summon Felguard

I brought this up earlier, but after I introduced this addon to the guild yesterday, the point was made again.
Destruction Warlocks spec 40 destruction, 21 demonology.
Of those 21 demonology, you want:
5/5 Demonic Embrace
3/3 Fel Intellect
3/3 Fel Stamina
3/3 Demonic Aegis
1/1 Fel Domnation
2/2 Master Summoner
1/1 Demonic Sacrifice
This adds up to 18 talent points, leaving you with 3 filler talent points.
The guild as a whole wants 0/2, 1/2 and 2/2 HS and 3/3 Imp, but it's outside the scope of this addon to require that.

In my oppinion, noone should be punished for where they place the 3 filler talents, as it serves no use or gives a very very small benefit to the raid.

This all started with a fellow Warlock red-flagged for having Improved Voidwalker in his Destruction spec.
This should not be a red-flag. We could discuss if its severe it enough to be a yellow-flag, which it probably should.

Abbi · 01/02/08, 11:17 AM

I'd kvetch slightly about the Imp Def Stance check. Quoting Quigon's thread:

*An alternate spec which will provide additional threat would be to drop improved defensive stance, the 1 point in UBW, and place the remaining four points in the arms tree: 3 points in improved thunderclap, 1 point in anger management.

That's from the aggro talents section. This is pretty close to the choice I made; I've gone threat-oriented for various reasons, and at present we're not working on any fights that require me to mitigate spell damage to my max ability. Flagging the lack of IDS as red seems a bit strong. Yellow or unflagged may make more sense.

• Hamlet · 01/03/08, 11:21 AM

Quick note: A Rogue in the SC raid was red-flagged yesterday for being Sword/Mace spec. That's a perfectly reasonable thing to be.

manly · 01/03/08, 1:18 PM

For mages, I would add the following:

RED flagged if you don't have at least 40 points in one tree. The only build that would trip the wire is 33/28/0, which would already be yellow flagged due to lack of IV anyway. And that build was already dead, IV just gets the message even more across.

Vhad · 01/03/08, 2:19 PM

Originally Posted by Arawethion

Quick note: A Rogue in the SC raid was red-flagged yesterday for being Sword/Mace spec. That's a perfectly reasonable thing to be.

This goes for any double weapon mastery specs. Also still flags Warlocks for 21/40 destruction specs for me for some odd reason, just goes red and has no report on the matter.

Edit: also reports arcane frost as red because of no cold snap and iceblock which is not really making much sense.

Silverstorm · 01/03/08, 2:53 PM

Originally Posted by Lazak

In my oppinion, noone should be punished for where they place the 3 filler talents, as it serves no use or gives a very very small benefit to the raid.

This all started with a fellow Warlock red-flagged for having Improved Voidwalker in his Destruction spec.
This should not be a red-flag. We could discuss if its severe it enough to be a yellow-flag, which it probably should.

Those 3 extra points have 6 places to go, 5 of which are listed in the "Demonology Filler Talents" check.

Imp HS - probably 1-2 points here, the Affliction lock will cover 0/2
Imp Imp - Succubus is sacced, this only helps on very few select fights where Stamina is needed.
Imp Health Funnel - Succubus is sacced.
Imp VW - Same
Imp Succubus - Same
Unholy Power (not in the Filler check) - Same

Conclusion: I agree with Lazak, there aren't any good places for those 3 points after you've taken care of the Imp HS between the locks in your raid. I don't think it's worth yellow-flagging, either. I'd say remove the Imp VW/Succubus checks because there aren't better places for the points (except maybe Imp Imp, and that's very situational), and any choices would be solo/PvP based.

Edit:

check("Lacking Improved Shadow Bolt", RED, function (talents) return (talents:spent(3) >= 5) and (talents:rank(3, 1) < 5); end);
check("Lacking Bane", RED, function (talents) return talents:rank(3, 3) < 5; end);

Can the ISB check be simplified to be like the Bane check? Bane is further down the tree, and seems to be required, regardless of points spent in Destruction.

Mornil · 01/04/08, 6:25 AM

Originally Posted by Slake

1.1.2 (57583 on svn)
- PALADIN: Modified Redoubt and Toughness checks to not trigger for Ret specs

I'm not sure I understand why this check is only removed for ret specs; I don't think it's all that unusual for holy paladins to have to fill offtank roles occasionally for fights like Morogrim in SSC (murlocs) on Jan'Alai in ZA (dragonhawks) and these talents can be quite useful if you know you're going to face such situations.

Namoya · 01/04/08, 8:33 AM

Mornil i agree with you on the subject of Toughness, Redoubt isnt really worth it in my opinion.

Anyway this is my spec WoWHead - Talent Calulator. Even if i completely agree with yellow flagging my spec as PvP spec (which it is obviously). I don't think it justifies a red flag for not taking 5/5 Holy Power, as the decision has to be made between 5/5 Holy Power, Aura Mastery and 2/2 Improved Blessing of Wisdom and the later two are superior at least in my eyes.

Furthermore i think Abbi has a point that for a Protection Warrior Improved Defense Stance is no mandatory i think.