WoWAce to close its doors (sort of) - Page 2

Sovereignty · 07/23/08, 7:00 PM

Originally Posted by funkydude

As to "externals" I always hated this and it brought far too much focus on the addons library usage rather than the addon itself. "It's good because it uses lib X, it's bad because it use lib X". If you truly care about loading time you can use an addon load manager.

That's one benefit, but it's also much nicer to have a smaller addon folder when throwing up a UI for download. Not that it's really relevant to the thread of course.

This whole process seems rather inconsequential to me. I don't know why end-users would be all up in arms about a movement of a free service to a different infrastructure. Hopefully this will cause some end-users to look more closely at the addons they're using and compare them feature-wise rather than going for convenience only.

Calen · 07/23/08, 7:02 PM

Originally Posted by funkydude

I think there is too much emphasis on curse and the curse updater here. There are several addons websites and even more updaters. There are infact free to use updaters with no adds that currently update from all addon websites, a quick glance at the wowace updaters forum will tell you this, and some are not platform reliant. WoWAce will still be the same, just minus the ability to download the addons.

I'm happy to hear that you believe there will be alternatives to the curse client(from a Q&A post)

Q: Will you prevent third party updaters like jWU and the like from auto-updating from Curse in the future?
A: As far as I know we're not interested in playing cat and mouse games. But in the immediate future the curse client's dataservice will be closed. However we're looking at opening up for third parties in the future. But it'll probably require the end user to have a premium account to use those services.

Q: Do you intend to block (via policy, technically it would be near impossible) scraping?
A: Only if it becomes an inherent problem that affects our longevity will this have resources devoted to it.

The first quote seems to suggest they'll be shutting down third party access to the updating process, and requiring a premium service to allow them, if and when they choose to do so.

The second quote suggests that we may all get away using some kind of scraping varient, although if every current WAU user switched to a free 'scraper' (some scripting/curl/wget/whatever) they'd be quickly forced to do something about it..

So, although WUU does work with curse addons right now, based on those quotes, I'm guessing they'll try to change that asap.

◊ Praetorian · 07/23/08, 7:08 PM

Originally Posted by funkydude

I think there is too much emphasis on curse and the curse updater here. There are several addons websites and even more updaters. There are infact free to use updaters with no adds that currently update from all addon websites, a quick glance at the wowace updaters forum will tell you this, and some are not platform reliant. WoWAce will still be the same, just minus the ability to download the addons. (unless you use svn/git/etc)

As to "externals" I always hated this and it brought far too much focus on the addons library usage rather than the addon itself. "It's good because it uses lib X, it's bad because it use lib X". If you truly care about loading time you can use an addon load manager.

For me it wasn't a loading time issue, it was simply stability. Every time someone tells me they ran WAU and it broke their UI, I ask, and it turns out that they use embedded libs, and had some conflict as a result, where updating one mod with an embedded lib version broke their whole UI.

For all the talk of instability and beta releases, the reality is that I run WAU (update all, no externals, etc.) 4-5 times a week, and I can think of maybe two occasions in the past year that WAU did something unwelcome to my UI (the first being a bad Omen build, and the second being when the WAU-propagated build of tinyTip turned into something nonfunctional one day). But those were both specific issues with specific mods.

We'll see how this all ends up.

funkydude · 07/23/08, 7:16 PM

Originally Posted by Calen

I'm happy to hear that you believe there will be alternatives to the curse client(from a Q&A post)

The first quote seems to suggest they'll be shutting down third party access to the updating process, and requiring a premium service to allow them, if and when they choose to do so.

The second quote suggests that we may all get away using some kind of scraping varient, although if every current WAU user switched to a free 'scraper' (some scripting/curl/wget/whatever) they'd be quickly forced to do something about it..

So, although WUU does work with curse addons right now, based on those quotes, I'm guessing they'll try to change that asap.

Indeed. I had a chat with kaelten about this, since I am in no way associated with Curse, and this is a decision they want to go through with. But my argument still stands, you will find in 90% of cases addon authors do not solely use curse as a distribution point, infact I personally prefer WoWI's layout, although I have not seen the new curse.com stuff.

Curse is not the be all end all of addons.

◊ Birdemani · 07/23/08, 7:23 PM

Originally Posted by funkydude

infact I personally prefer WoWI's layout

Not to be too jaded, but don't go screaming that from the rooftops. I have no desire for Curse to pull together a "partnership" which eventually leads to them buying them out just for their traffic. It's one of that last good quality add on library sites out there now...the only other good thing from there are the personal hosted sites for individual add ons.

lazerpewpew · 07/23/08, 8:02 PM

To Glaurong:

I, for one, hate Blizzard's torrent distribution idea. It has always been so horrific slow for me, and the mandatory upload means I can not do anything online. I always get my patch from filefront.com.

To people with answers:

1: I read WAU as stopping to function immediately. Is that right? (I can not access WAU now)
2: When will the new curse client come out, to replace WAU?

• koaschten · 07/23/08, 8:08 PM

1. WAU is working as of a second ago.

And i doubt it will stop working before the migration and the replacement is working. But i am neither associated with wowace or curse nor do i have background knowledge of their change management.

• Intermission · 07/24/08, 12:59 AM

As an end user I'm still a little confused. From what I can understand, but is most likely inaccurate:

- (Soon) the WAU will not work, as access to files.wowace.com is going to be restricted.
- Curse will have some new software which is a replacement for WAU.
- You need to pay Curse money to do "one click update everything" with the Curse WAU replacement.
- You can update individual mods using the Curse WAU replacement (why not ctrl+A then press update?).

I dislike the Curse website/addon-download community as a whole, and from the general vibe I get from my guild and friends in WoW, most people feel the same way. Will there be any other software aside Curse's new thing?

Whenever I hear the word Curse I think the following:
- laggy website
- advertisements taking up 2/3rds of a page
- wowhead being so much better than wowdb
- trojans
- un-updated or old/outdated addons
- non-ace addons (although the main reason I prefer ace addons is due to the WAU)

So when I hear "WAU will be replaced with a Curse program", it sounds in my mind very much like: "the greatest end user mod updating software is being replaced by one of the worst addon websites, who are making their version of this software, without the main feature that I use it for, and I potentially need to pay for it".

Ragnor · 07/24/08, 2:24 AM

Originally Posted by Intermission

Whenever I hear the word Curse I think the following:
- laggy website
- advertisements taking up 2/3rds of a page
- wowhead being so much better than wowdb
- trojans
- un-updated or old/outdated addons
- non-ace addons (although the main reason I prefer ace addons is due to the WAU)

So when I hear "WAU will be replaced with a Curse program", it sounds in my mind very much like: "the greatest end user mod updating software is being replaced by one of the worst addon websites, who are making their version of this software, without the main feature that I use it for, and I potentially need to pay for it".

100% agreed.

I for one will not be running closed source updater where you have no idea what it's doing where and you have to pay for a basic feature like update all.

It's fairly clear curse has been providing bandwidth for wowace for ages and now it's time to turn the captive audience into $.

Can't say I blame them but don't expect the average savvy geek gamer to fall for it. I'm sure alternatives will arise. Wowace's system of repackaging was hugely inefficient and needless.

• tsigo · 07/24/08, 3:03 AM

My main gripe, as a developer, is that publishing to these addon sites is a pain in the ass. I've got export the Subversion branch, zip it, upload it, then enter the changelog. And I may have to do this for multiple sites. Whereas when I'm just uploading changes to the WowAce SVN, I make my changes, (test?), commit, and it's automatically zipped, the changelogs are pulled directly from the SVN changelogs, it's nice and easy with almost no extra overhead for the developer.

I thought this is what CurseForge would do, but even after importing to the SVN it just sat there telling me to upload a file. So far CurseForge appears to be no different from what the old curse-gaming.com site used to be when it was the main source for addons, or from how WoWInterface is now. They both have SCM options.

- un-updated or old/outdated addons

No kidding. After this announcement I went to check out CurseForge and, after finding my old curse-gaming.com login still worked, saw that they still had records for the very first addons I ever wrote, before I knew better and started using Ace. They hadn't been updated since before TBC and yet there they are, available for download.

Aiiane · 07/24/08, 12:55 PM

Originally Posted by tsigo

I thought this is what CurseForge would do, but even after importing to the SVN it just sat there telling me to upload a file. So far CurseForge appears to be no different from what the old curse-gaming.com site used to be when it was the main source for addons, or from how WoWInterface is now. They both have SCM options.

Make an SVN tag, and a package will automatically be built for it (and syndicated to curse.com for downloading there as well, if it's marked as Release or Beta - Alpha builds aren't syndicated).

The reason for requiring tags is to help enforce revision control; that is, not every single commit should generate a new download for the masses but instead you pick and choose what commits you release.

Edit: Oh, also to address something from Malan's original post that I don't ever think got answered...

The SVN repository is being made developer only so that you can cheat the system by pulling off the SVN (I think that's what Funkydude's comment on page 2 in that thread indicates)

The SVN will have anonymous read-only access enabled, unless it becomes a problem again. So if you'e wanting to pull every SVN commit, you could still do that via SVN updates... but like the scraper comment, if it becomes an issue they'll probably turn it off. OTOH, since the new system is designed to have actual release builds, you may or may not want to do that.

funkydude · 07/24/08, 1:11 PM

Curse client is in no way a direct replacement for WAU, there is no replacement for WAU, only alternatives, of which currently there are several, but in future will be few, if curse limit downloading.

Caligula · 07/24/08, 1:21 PM

I've used both WAU (for quite a few months now) and I tried the Curse client as an updater to the 4 or 5 mods I have that are non-ace. It was atrocious. To go along with what Gurg said, WAU has never caused me a single issue that wasn't a problem with the actual mod itself. I run the thing multiple times a week (full, no externals) and I can't recall a single time that it has ever caused a problem with my UI.

The first, and only time, I used the Curse client, it timed out while downloading(I think? What mod doesn't timeout when downloading from curse.com though...) and somehow deleted (for sure, gone from the Addons folder, I checked) the 3 mods that I was using it to update. I promptly uninstalled and never looked back.

I am most definitely not looking forward to losing WAU, and I'm frankly dreading having to go back to manually updating or even worse, using Curses cumbersome website and mod downloader.

funkydude · 07/24/08, 2:25 PM

I'm getting sick and tired of saying this. Curse is not the only website, Curse is not the only updater.

WoWInterface - Find World of Warcraft AddOns!
WoWInterface Downloads : WoW Tools & Utilities : WoWInterface UI Manager - Windows
WoWInterface Downloads : WoW Tools & Utilities : WoWInterface UI Manager - Generic (Linux/Macintosh)

Sovereignty · 07/24/08, 3:23 PM

Originally Posted by funkydude

I'm getting sick and tired of saying this. Curse is not the only website, Curse is not the only updater.

WoWInterface - Find World of Warcraft AddOns!
WoWInterface Downloads : WoW Tools & Utilities : WoWInterface UI Manager - Windows
WoWInterface Downloads : WoW Tools & Utilities : WoWInterface UI Manager - Generic (Linux/Macintosh)

This.

It's really not inconvenient to have to go to places like WoWI or Curse to get your addons, and certainly there are other clients available to use.

I envision the future of WoWAce to be like Tuller's situation now: he discusses his addons on WoWAce (dominos, for example) and then uploads them on WoWI. There aren't new revisions every single day, and there is almost no need to run your updater 10 times a week. I've never really understood why people insist upon running updaters all the time if their mods are functioning correctly.

Ohi · 07/24/08, 3:25 PM

Of course they're not the only UI website Funky, but that's what we're being handed. The fine people over at Ace are telling the mod developers and users of their current system that this is what's happening and this is what they're doing.

From what people are being told it's easy for one to assume that everyone from ACE is going to instantly head over to curse and do their thing at curse like it was done at ACE.

We don't know how addon authors are going to do things. Some really don't like curse, some don't care. Sure Curse isn't the only place to go, but what if curse IS the only place that particular author decides to host their addons.

Still will have to deal with curse. May not have to deal with their updater, that is if they decide to let people use their own or not.

There are still a lot of what if's out there. Until people know things for sure there's going to be a lot of speculation on whats going to happen.

[e] Just to add, I'm not bitching or complaining. Personally I'm taking a wait and see approach to things, and I prepared for the inevitable by re-embedding all my libraries again. Just posting my ideas on what someone on the flipside may be thinking.

funkydude · 07/24/08, 3:34 PM

Originally Posted by Ohi

Of course they're not the only UI website Funky, but that's what we're being handed. The fine people over at Ace are telling the mod developers and users of their current system that this is what's happening and this is what they're doing.

From what people are being told it's easy for one to assume that everyone from ACE is going to instantly head over to curse and do their thing at curse like it was done at ACE.

We don't know how addon authors are going to do things. Some really don't like curse, some don't care. Sure Curse isn't the only place to go, but what if curse IS the only place that particular author decides to host their addons.

Still will have to deal with curse. May not have to deal with their updater, that is if they decide to let people use their own or not.

There are still a lot of what if's out there. Until people know things for sure there's going to be a lot of speculation on whats going to happen.

[e] Just to add, I'm not bitching or complaining. Personally I'm taking a wait and see approach to things, and I prepared for the inevitable by re-embedding all my libraries again. Just posting my ideas on what someone on the flipside may be thinking.

As an admin I'm telling you it isn't "what you're being handed". Considering we're being allowed to use the curseforge framework there's an inevitable promotion there. You can't really expect them to let us use it for free and have nothing in return. But it is not the only solution. I'm just trying to make people aware of this, because I'm seeing way too much "oh no we are doomed to use curse".

Ohi · 07/24/08, 3:49 PM

Personally I know this is true Funky, and I never expect something for nothing in this world. I know what you were trying to say. I was just trying to play the devil's advocate for a second to show the other side.

Addon authors have thankless jobs (or hobbies) that do nothing for them but to give them additional headaches while enriching my gaming experience. I support the authors who's mods I use any way I can.

Like I said in my previous post, I'm definitely taking the wait and see approach. Things may be better overall, no ones' gonna know until it's finalized.

Aiiane · 07/24/08, 7:44 PM

Just pointing out another thing that a lot of people seem to be missing...

The "curse updater" that is being referred to over on the WowAce changes threads is NOT the current Curse client.

Kaelten, kolie, and others are working on writing a completely new updater, from scratch, that will become the new Curse client approximately the same time as WowAce switches over to the CF software and WAU is no longer available. The new one is written using C++/wxWidgets and will be completely cross-platform.

So while I understand that a lot of people don't like the Curse website and the current Curse Client, at the same time it doesn't really make sense to say "the current curse client is so much more horrible than WAU" because what you'll be using isn't the current Curse client. From what I can tell, the new Curse client should be a lot less troublesome (and it will pull addons directly from a backend data feed, so you won't have to visit the Curse website as part of using it).

If you want to add your own input into the new Curse client development, I know Kaelten and Kolie are both in #curseforge on FreeNode, and they've proven willing to answer questions/concerns in the past.

Fendryl · 07/24/08, 7:47 PM

I think the concern isn't that Curse currently is the only option, it's that because of the incentive program for authors, it quite possibly could be. Granted some authors will be more than happy to still host on other sites, but if they've got a reason to have Curse be the sole distributor, who could blame them for going that direction.

For me, it's not the authors getting a piece of the action, I think that's fantastic & long overdue. The part I'm having trouble with is Curse is immediately hamstringing functionality that most people have become accustomed to, and then offering to restore that functionality for a price. Plus there's the other things mentioned - poor performance on high load days, security issues, and general lack of quality. All rolled together, it definitely gives me some pause & concern.