Addon for visually depicting item budgets?

Nezralix · 08/01/08, 5:49 PM

Is there a mod out there that draws out a visual representation of an item's budget, demonstrating what percentage is allocated to each individual stat? What with the large numbers being thrown around these days and the somewhat variable stat values, I find that it can be a little bit tricky to easily identify whether an item is optimal for my goals. I haven't seen anything like this.

tsigo · 08/01/08, 6:33 PM

Not exactly what you're looking for, but have you tried RatingBuster from WowAce?

Nezralix · 08/01/08, 6:42 PM

Sure, I use RatingBuster, but to my knowledge it doesn't really have any facilities like that. The problem is the stats like mp5, stam, spell power, armor, etc. don't convert into the same units as other stats, so it's hard to really get an idea where the points are going unless you really look at it carefully.

For a rudimentary example, you might look at [Crimsonforge Breastplate] and might initially think that stamina is the dominant stat, when in fact, in terms of actual value, it has less stam than strength and only barely more stam than crit.

Perhaps more strikingly, you could look at an item like [Gauntlets of the Righteous] and realize how horrendously designed it is for tanking.

hypetech · 08/01/08, 10:32 PM

Have you tried Pawn?

Spink · 08/02/08, 10:00 AM

It seems like you're kind of asking for two things here. To start it sounds like you're seeking something which will give you a sort of reverse engineered version of what the devs would use in order to create an item. But later you mention that you want something that will "easily identify whether an item is optimal for [your] goals." which is more looking to weight stats based on which class/role you are playing like to give the tank points value of an item based on your current stats, or the Shaman AEP based on your current stats as an Enh shaman etc.

For the former I'm not sure if such a thing exists. For the latter Pawn can work in some cases, but I couldn't guarantee it will work for every class/spec.

Nezralix · 08/02/08, 11:08 AM

Well, it's not so much that I need a mod telling me "yes" or "no" to whether an item is any good (as Pawn attempts to do), it's just that it's easier to determine whether an item is well-designed if you can see a visual breakdown of the stats. Frankly, even a sort of "normalized" stat number attached to each actual stat could be useful (i.e. convert some mp5 value into the equivalent value of str/int/spi/agi and show it next to the actual value). So this is partly the result of some stats being awkward to compare against other stats due to unequal StatMods.

The other issue is that stats are computed somewhat exponentially, as a result of the item formula [ilvl = ((stat)^(1.7) + (stat2)^1.7)^(1/1.7)]. So an item with, say, 10 strength and 5 agility, you might intuitively believe that twice as much of the budget was spent on strength as agility (66.7%), but that's not really how it works out (as far as I know). In fact, the sum of the stats would be 10^1.7 + 5^1.7 = 50.1 + 15.4 = 65.5, so 50.1/65.5 = 76% is spent on strength, and only 24% on agility. So it could be, if an item has a very large amount of a tricky stat like extra armor or mp5 on it, that the rest of the stats may be suffering an inordinate amount. A visual representation lets you realize this pretty quickly. In general, a more "balanced" item is probably more desirable. A mod like Pawn helps you in this regard, but it can't hurt to have more information.

If I'm misinterpreting this somehow, then let me know.

EDIT: As an addition, I believe the formula that I'm talking about is very easy to implement; you don't really even have to do any calculations related to the actual item level, if you're just considering the sum of the stats. If I had any kind of knowledge at all about the WoW Addon system I'd probably write this mod myself.

♦ Praetorian · 08/02/08, 2:09 PM

It's an interesting idea. Basically just a pie chart showing the budget allocation of the item.

That's something that could just as easily be done on the web as in-game, really, since it's not like you necessarily need that info in real time.

Suesse · 08/02/08, 3:51 PM

This is a pretty interesting idea. I agree that it would work very well as an offline tool.

Once the basic framework is in, I can see some interesting additions. For example, as a warrior a lot of our BT/MH gear has strength and block rating on it where offset pieces don't. Many warriors consider that not very worthwhile. This tool could tell me the itemlevel of the item without stats that I indicate as insignificant. The same thing could go for a mage who wants to see the itemlevel of a T6 item without spirit on it (many mage offset items will have zero spirit). Or a healer who wants to see the item level of an item without stamina or even spell haste.

I haven't seen an literature on the topic recently. Are the formulas well defined? Or would such a project require first some testing to determine the formula particularly in regards to sockets.

Nezralix · 08/02/08, 10:24 PM

I put together this tool pretty quickly as a proof-of-concept: http://krom.x10hosting.com/misc/test.html

Fcukstar · 08/02/08, 11:12 PM

I'm having a little trouble really seeing the usefulness of a framework like this. To be honest, in-game Addons such as Ratingbuster and Pawn give you most of the information you need to determine when an item is an upgrade or not. I'm assuming you want to know how much of the iLvl budget was used for each item on each individual stat that it has, but even then I don't really see how that is helpful or not. The reason I say this is because different classes, and different talent specs for each class have different EP values for certain stats due to class usage of certain stats.

For example, a rogue gets 1 AP from stength and 1 AP from agi, but they also get dodge and crit, while warriors get 2 AP from stength, and no AP from agi. Also, certain classes need different amounts of stats as well, for example rogues need gobs of hit, while enhancement shamans don't quite focus on that stat as much. Even if the mod told you that item X was well budgeted for your Shaman, if you didn't need anymore hit, then that information would be useless excess. Each class is affected by certain stats differently, as I'm sure you know, so knowing the budget that was used on each stat in an item really isn't going to help you understand if that item is useful or not; that information comes down to knowledge of said class and spec.

But that is just my personal opinion. I really believe that you should be able to make a judgment on the piece of gear you need and/or want to use by understanding of the class and stats that are required rather than having a mod do it for you.

Nezralix · 08/02/08, 11:57 PM

Equivalence Points don't really mean a whole lot in the real world, given that stats multiply with one another in different magnitudes at different levels of gear. I don't think any kind of elaborate framework is necessary; I think that, as a simple utility, this offers information directly from the game that's useful to know in making decisions. It's not making judgments on what stats you do or don't want, only telling you how the item designer laid out the stats on the item, which is not always obvious.

Roywyn · 08/03/08, 3:15 AM

Originally Posted by Fcukstar

I'm having a little trouble really seeing the usefulness of a framework like this. To be honest, in-game Addons such as Ratingbuster and Pawn give you most of the information you need to determine when an item is an upgrade or not. I'm assuming you want to know how much of the iLvl budget was used for each item on each individual stat that it has, but even then I don't really see how that is helpful or not. The reason I say this is because different classes, and different talent specs for each class have different EP values for certain stats due to class usage of certain stats.

The point isn't to have an addon like pawn/lootrank/etc. that caculates the Agility-Equivalence-Points (or whatever your class uses).

The point is to see how much of the item budge is eaten by which stat.
To see whether an item is well designed or not.

For example [Gauntlets of the Righteous] would display something like that:
22 stamina (15%)
20 intellect (23%)
19 defense (22%)
21 dmg (21%)
7 mp5 (19%)

Pawn/etc. show you the tanking-points or whatever.
But showing the stat spread is nice for telling whether an item is well designed or not.
It would tell you that this item is badly designed for pure tanking. That it's a random smattering of stats.

Another item would then look like:
45 stamina (35%)
11 intellect (13%)
28 defense (32%)
20 dmg (21%)

That shows that while being a vastly better designed item, it still spreads only 2/3 of its budget on pure health/avoidance tanking.

Rieux · 08/03/08, 4:44 AM

Originally Posted by Roywyn

The point isn't to have an addon like pawn/lootrank/etc. that caculates the Agility-Equivalence-Points (or whatever your class uses).

The point is to see how much of the item budge is eaten by which stat.
To see whether an item is well designed or not.

For example [Gauntlets of the Righteous] would display something like that:
22 stamina (15%)
20 intellect (23%)
19 defense (22%)
21 dmg (21%)
7 mp5 (19%)

Pawn/etc. show you the tanking-points or whatever.
But showing the stat spread is nice for telling whether an item is well designed or not.
It would tell you that this item is badly designed for pure tanking. That it's a random smattering of stats.

Another item would then look like:
45 stamina (35%)
11 intellect (13%)
28 defense (32%)
20 dmg (21%)

That shows that while being a vastly better designed item, it still spreads only 2/3 of its budget on pure health/avoidance tanking.

I guess I'm a bit confused, though - could you not tell the second item was significantly better just by simply looking at the stats? Why do you need to know that the mp5 is taking up 19% of the item budget to realize that it is a wasted stat and could be better allocated elsewhere?

I mean, I can see this being interesting out of game for showing to what degree certain items are misallocated, but I don't see how it would help determine what items you should be using.

As an example, looking at [Life-step Belt] and [Cord of Braided Troll Hair] from ZA, which have the same ilvl of 128. Does the fact that the cloth belt misallocates 11 int in lieu of 22 spirit, 2 healing, and 3 stamina on the leather belt really matter to me when making the determination on which item to use? Certainly not, from my perspective; the leather belt is simply better, and I can tell that by just looking at the stats.

Again, it could be interesting to see the percentage the 11 int uses up in item budget to determine how poorly designed the item is, but it shouldn't make any significant difference in whether or not you should use the item in the first place.

Spink · 08/04/08, 12:20 AM

I'm similarly confused, how does this cross the barrier between interesting and useful?

When deciding whether X is an upgrade over Y when both bear the same ilvl will always come down to class needs rather than distribution item building points. I would be willing to guess that any item with mp5 at all has an easy to acquire superior alternative for tanking for example.

I guess one way I could see where you were coming from is that it would be a useful tool for giving feedback on items to the developers. I think every spec has several ideal stats and would prefer that every item that they had equipped had all of those stats divided evenly on it. But in the real world you have to deal with what is served up which while not optimal compared to what could potentially exist for that slot (I think intentionally in a lot of cases) it is the best choice available and can be easily confirmed by the ratingbuster/tankpoints/pawn/gear spreadsheets that ask you to input stats etc.

So yeah I can't see a use for this in real time as an addon past being something that is interesting to those inclined to know what the world is made up of even if it isn't useful. That being the case surely it would be a lot easier to have an offline version since I think the amount and kind of calculations can get pretty complex although I couldn't honestly say I understand it especially with the new heights that stats are reaching as well as their continually diminishing returns through ratings and crit:agi ratio etc.

Nezralix · 08/04/08, 1:15 AM

The calculations are trivial, and I have to imagine a mod that shows a simple graph would be pretty simple for an experienced addon writer. I wouldn't picture this as a major project; it's just a handy utility for those with the interest in that sort of thing, with very little user-effort required (some mechanism for selecting an item -> see a pretty graph).