Warning for Whitefyst: 1. All posters are to make an effort to communicate clearly.

• Relwin · 09/27/11, 4:15 PM

Post: [Cataclysm] 4.2 Marksmanship Guide
User: Whitefyst
Infraction: 1. All posters are to make an effort to communicate clearly.
Points: 0

Administrative Note:

Message to User:

Ease up on the quote splitting. It needlessly adds some scroll and if a post is that in depth to warrant it, then users can scroll back to reference its original location.

Original Post:

Originally Posted by Failure

Perhaps I misinterpreted your post, but:

"It is my current belief that the maximum DPS T134P cycle will maintain at least the minimum 4 SSs to maintain ISS, perform sufficient ASs (however is required by the T134P implementation) to proc the T134P and then hasted AIs to best utilize the focus. "

seems like commenting on it to me, …

This was a speculation comment and was a maximum DPS comment in regards to our currently unhasted periods where I still believe that an AS focus dump is a viable option, although that is preferential. When hasted, we should definitely cast AI. With the T134P proccing off AS and then providing a considerable amount of haste, my current assumption is that when otherwise unhasted that we will want to use AS as the focus dump, not only because it is a good option then, but also because it will proc the 25% haste, which we can then use to cast more hasted AIs. I really do not see a flaw in this logic.

This approach assumes that it takes several ASs on average to proc the T134P. If that is the case, then it probably is not worthwhile to cast ASs when already hasted to try to get the proc with it being better to just concentrate on casting as many hasted AIs as possible during the haste period.

If it only takes 1 or 2 ASs to proc the T134P, then it is possible that we may want to fire an AS every cycle, even when otherwise hasted, to try to have higher T134P uptime. I do not know if this would actually work out as a positive action, but it is an option to investigate if the T134P mechanism procs easily.

Originally Posted by Failure

and my main question is "in what implementation was the 4pc when you even tested those DPS #s and came to that conclusion. I just don't see how if our T13-4pc mirrors the Warlock T12-4pc, that it will be worth trying to keep the buff up at all, it's almost definitely a DPS loss vs not trying. That being said, it still may proc when you Arcane Shot anyway (right before a Countdown on Baleroc for instance) and will be a nice boost, but would be pure RNG at that point.

I will repeat myself here. I did not specify the FD implementation for the T134P numbers since those numbers were not discussed in my previous post and were there only to provide the skew on how it may affect the other numbers from the test version of FD. Furthermore, the implementation is a placeholder implementation being performed on top of the T12 bonuses, so the numbers really do not matter at this time.

But since you insist on knowing, the placeholder implementation used on FD is a 15% proc rate with no ICD. Hence, it has a pretty high uptime in the FD test implementation where I have it set to use AS as the focus dump when unhasted. Is this the way the actual mechanic will be? Maybe, maybe not? But it is just as valid of a placeholder assumption as yours until we know what the actual implementation is. And none of my spreadsheet analysis assumed this implementation.

Originally Posted by Failure

And I guess my bad on the Arcane Shot thing, I see it mentioned a lot, but realistically, it's just a lazy way to play, as most movement can be planned, and you can do AiS without risk of interruption (p1 Rag and his BS knockbacks aside, but you're CA+RF for 1/3rd of that anyway). I do think the 2pc T13 is good, and worth switching to, but I think it's a little less clear-cut than you're saying, because I feel like it's going to rot more focus than T12-4pc, and you're vastly undervaluing T12-4pc with the bug (which, is a fair premise to make if you think it's fixed, or want to compare both ways incase it is). You do mention the AS focus dump cycle a lot here though, so that's probably where my misinterpretation is from.

I mention the AS focus dump cycle a lot since it is part of doing the full analysis of how the T13 set bonuses affect our possible rotations. And as I said previously, it is a preferential situation on whether to use AS or hardcast AI when unhasted. Sure you can time movement situations well usually and can adjust if you know an interruption mechanism is happening soon.

However, when your AI hardcast is relatively slow, like > 2s, then it does not really provide much of a DPS benefit if any over using AS when you factor in that you can perform 2 ASs for 1 AI, the autoshot blockage by AI hardcast, the extra WQ chances from the extra focus dump attack and possible autoshot, and the additional chance for Sic’Em or GftT to proc to provide more pet focus to increase its WH uptime. Furthermore, long AI hardcasts are more vulnerable to interruptions from having to move or interruption/pushback mechanics. One interruption can make the AI focus dump choice when unhasted be a DPS loss. Sure it has the potential to be a little better DPS, but it also has the potential for all but the most skilled players to be a DPS loss. So is using AS in this situation being lazy? Maybe legitimately from some perspectives. From others, it may legitimately be considered wise. Either way, I recommend people use whichever option seems to work best for them.

When your AI hardcast is below 1.8s, then I feel that it is sufficiently hasted where it clearly the better DPS option, but safeguards to avoid interruptions and pushback are still necessary to maintain the higher DPS potential.

Between 1.8s and 2s AI cast time, I believe the choice to use AS or hardcast AI is purely a preferential decision currently for what you feel more comfortable with performing.

Personally when unhasted at my current static haste level, if I know that I am standing still for a while and am safe to cast AI, I will do so; otherwise, I choose to cast AS to be safe.

Originally Posted by Pallysrcool

You seem to state, even with the the T134P, that hard-casting Aimed Shot happens to be better. Currently I understand why this is so with T12 set bonuses while under 1.8 cast time as well, but when we reach our T13 gear it seems that a regular AS focus dump rotation would be better because of that it procs the T134P.

For instance, in a 10s cycle, CS > ASx3 > SSx4 seems like a viable rotation to be playing with outside the CA phase because of 1) With 36 focus being gained by a SS pair, this allows us to creep in an extra AS which leads to 2) AS is what procs the T134P and allows us to hardcast Aimed Shot.

I definitely agree that with the T134P proccing off AS casts that your suggestion may be a viable option depending on the implementation of the T134P proc mechanism. It is possible that once we see the actual proc mechanism that it may be best when otherwise unhasted to use AS focus dump cycle to maintain the T134P buff as much as possible and to utilize that haste on AS. This is definitely an option that I plan to investigate and partly why I included it in the quick analysis above.

However, my current assumption is that that will not be the best option to perform. This is partly due to the fact that when hasted by an additional 25% over our static haste (this is almost a BL), AI is by far the better DPS option. Furthermore, an AS focus dump rotation is very limited at being able to utilize haste. The only shot affected by that haste is the 4 SSs.

Also this is a proc with possible limited control on when it randomly occurs depending on the actual proc mechanism. If the T134P proc is up and then we get trinkets procs or BL cast on top of it or need to cast RF on top of it, the AS focus dump cycle really wastes all of that combined haste, such that it is probably better to forgo T134P haste benefit for a bit and cast as many very hasted AIs as possible. Then once haste effects wear off to use AS to regain the T134P again.

My current assumption is that when we get any dynamic haste effect that sufficiently lowers our AI cast time that we want to use that and forgo casting ASs to get the T134P proc, unless it procs very easily.

Anyway, its all speculation at this point, but I plan to come up with and evaluate all of the options that myself and the hunter community can think of to try to best utilize these new tier bonuses.

I do find it entertaining though that two people read the same posts by me and one thinks that I stress AS use too much and another thinks that I do not enough. Part of this is due to people’s preferences but also because I am trying to throw all of the options out there to investigate.