03/27/12, 3:26 PM
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#1
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Struck by Diax's Rake
Troll Death Knight
Mal'Ganis
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Warning for Muspel: 2. All opinions should be stated as succinctly as possible.
Post: [Cataclysm] Protection Warrior
User: Muspel
Infraction: 2. All opinions should be stated as succinctly as possible.
Points: 0
Administrative Note:
Message to User:
Originally Posted by Muspel
Going to need to break this up to address a lot of different points.
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This is explicitly against the rules, don't do it.
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Original Post:
Going to need to break this up to address a lot of different points. My apologies if it's a bit hard to follow.
Originally Posted by kopcap
First, EH should not be used to describe tanks survivability. Its a meaningless stat without considering other factors, ie swing size or timer.
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EH should absolutely be used, because it's a measurement of "will you live through the worst-case scenario", because the worst-case scenario will kill you otherwise.
Swing size and timer are part of the calculation of how much EH you should get. The answer to "how much stamina do I want" is never "it's your best stat, stack it forever", it's "you need enough so that you don't die to burst damage". Sometimes, like in ICC, burst damage is so high that you never reach that point. Other times, like in T11, you usually had enough just from the base stamina on your gear, so tanks went for mitigation and avoidance.
Originally Posted by kopcap
Second, BT model is based on probabilities. Souldrinker's proc does not need to be 100% to be useful. It still contributes, no matter the proc. BT windows on the majority of bosses are large enough to account for more than one proc on average.
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Heals are specifically excluded from burst time. Note the following line: "How long, on average, will it be until the tank is hit enough times in a row to at least kill him unless he is healed during the string of hits?"
You'll notice that stuff like HoTs are specifically not included in the formula, for instance.
Originally Posted by kopcap
Third, the notion that "5% is the definition of insignificant" is loltastic. I suggest you start 24-manning HM progression or switch off the latest DS nerf to appreciate the difference. Not to mention that this "5%" routinely comes out top 3 heal with <30% overheal on some encounters. Which is sorta handy for any tank, let alone a warrior.
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That's a completely flawed comparison. There's a dramatic difference between losing 5% of your raid's DPS or overall healing, and losing an occasional heal for 5% of your health.
Originally Posted by kopcap
Last, I have no idea what "EH-threshold" has to do with this discussion. It's not like you desperately need Hand of Morchok to reach it and switching to Souldrinker gonna suddenly make you a one shot wonder on any bosses.
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I never said it would. I said that if you're having EH problems, then Hand of Morchok is a better choice because it gives more EH. In all other situations, use Souldrinker for the damage.
Originally Posted by kopcap
ps Armsaun, BT does NOT describe a worst case scenario. It describes the probability of a worst case scenario occurring during a course of a fight. Souldrinker helps to bring this probability down.
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See above. Souldrinker's proc doesn't even have a spot where it could possibly be put into the formula. The proc definitely provides a survivability benefit, but it doesn't affect burst time any more than something like Lifebloom would. If you're trying to measure its value in terms of saving your life, you need to look at a different metric. In this case, Time to Live.
Originally Posted by aladell
I think the notion that healer mana is completely trivial doesn't necessarily hold true for the extended fights at the end of the tier. Having seen healers running on fumes for Spine trying to keep pace with searing plasma during progression, I'm inclined to agree with kopcap here on the SD issue(I assume a similar healing stress for madness as well, though I was DPS on our guild's second kill and wasn't as aware of mana bars).
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I actually addressed this: it's the raid damage that really runs healers dry, rather than tank heals.
Originally Posted by aladell
I don't believe anyone here is disputing EH > mitigation in how we gem and reforge for the majority of the tier, but the basis for this is largely because 1. Most of what is coming at us in this tier is either magic or unblockable/parryable/dodgeable damage and 2. Healer mana pools are quite generous right now. It was even said earlier in the thread that Blackhorn does provide incentives to gem more for mitigation due to the large portion of incoming damage melee/devastate is. If we accept that there are some fights this tier where healer mana is a concern, what we have now is a unique way for plate tanks to extend burst time regardless of damage type, provided that our EH is at a point at which we can survive encounter-specific bursts. From a holistic hand-wavy point of view, I would contend that that point is much easier to hit than we think(tank damage mitigation does not exist in a vacuum free of healer CDs), and as such would merit giving more weight to helping healers over the long term of the fight.
If the stamina contribution of H Hand was more significant or we need more physical mitigation stats for Blackhorn I could see a case for the mace, but I think the EH argument has been taken a bit too far in extreme in this particular case.
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I absolutely agree that the Hand of Morchok is generally not worth it. Like I mentioned above, my point was that in the event that you're running into survivability problems, the extra EH will pretty much always do you more good than the self-healing from SD.
Souldrinker is a great weapon, but that's not because of the self-healing.
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