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Kaubel · 10/02/08, 10:08 PM

Post: [Rogue] PvE DPS / WotLK Discussion
User: eyesolated
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http://elitistjerks.com/f15/a34-forum_rules/, #7.

Original Post:

Hi guys, long time reader here, only recently decided that i'd start posting. Before going into my question, let me say that english is not my native language so forgive any errors i'll probably make.

On topic, Eviscerate vs. Envenom. Now i read a lot about the two abilities (both here and in other forums), and the general consensus seems to be that Envenom is flat out the better choice of a direct damage finisher, even when both are untalented. In testing on the PTR, the difference in poison application/build-up time between an assassination build and a combat build felt like it's massive, so i hat the feeling that using Envenom could have quite an impact on my DPS using a Combat Build (5/51/5 @ Level 70).

But for now, some base numbers on the things we'll evaluate (as seen on Wowhead: If you are reading this, stop pressing F5.)
Deadly Poison IX has a 30% chance of applying a stack of DP which will do 296+0.08*AP Nature damage over 12 seconds.
Envenom IV does (at 5 stacks DP, 5 CP) 740+AP*0.35 damage, unmitigated by armor.
Eviscerate XII does (at 5 CP) between 1977+AP*0.15 and 2231+AP*0.35.

From reading information on beta, i think it's safe to assume that we'll hit at least 3000AP unbuffed by the time we enter Naxxramas or are right in there in clearing phase, but i'll provide numbers for different AP levels.

If you envenom a 5-stack DP away, it will take x seconds to reestablish the full stack for the benefit of the full 5-stack Tick-DPS. Untalented, it would take (at a 45% chance from 30% base + 15% Envenom) slightly more than 2 hits per stack, so let's say we'd need about 10 hits to reestablish our 5 point Deadly Poison stack. For combat, the assumption of using a ~2.5 Speed Mainhand and a ~1.5speed offhand for easy calculation should work out fine.

From autoattacks alone, after 7.5 seconds, we had 3 MH hits and 4 OH hits (for variation on where the Auto-Attack timer is on after Envenoming, this is a safe bet, although if you Envenom right before an autoattack is to happen, you'd have 1 more attack each). If you take Sinister Strike into the equation, we could count those like (1.5GCD) the OH autoattacks, leaving us at around 6 (enough to fully use the Envenom Poison proc buff) seconds to reapply our full stack of Deadly Poison. As we get (very rough calculation) about 2 hits per second in our target, we'll take the reapplication to 1 stack/second, which leads me to the following conclusion, so we'd lose
.) After Envenom before the first reapplication: (296+0.08*AP)*5 / 12 dps
.) for 3 secs thereafter (due to tick mechanics, correct me if i'm wrong here): (296+0.08*AP)*4 / 12 dps
.) for 3 secs thereafter (again, due to tick mechanics): (296+0.08*AP)*2 / 12 dps

Including the poison-loss in Envenoms viability would put it at (740+AP*0.35)-((296+0.08*AP)/2*3), so Envenom's net damage value falls back due to lost DP ticks.
Eviscerate would be allowed to lose
.) at 2000AP: ~67%-84%
.) at 3000AP: ~60%-70%
.) at 4000AP: ~53%-67%
.) at 5000AP: ~47%-64%
of it's damage to armor mitigation (around 7% less per 1000AP for minimal damage, and an inversively scaling amount less for maximum damage). Considering the various Armor debuffs i can't help but find it very unlikely that this would happen, like, ever. But it also seems that the higher you get in AP, the stronger Envenom gets (especially if Vile Poisons/Imp. Poisons specced, i.e. heavy Assassination).

Now for a more versatile approach, i checked the numbers with the various talents included. If you happen to take Vile Poisons, the numbers would be as follows:
.) at 2000AP: ~60%-69%
.) at 3000AP: ~51%-64%
.) at 4000AP: ~43%-60%
.) at 5000AP: ~36%-56%

On the other hand, if you take Improved Eviscerate and Aggression (+35% Eviscerate Damage Total)
.) at 2000AP: ~75%-81% (75% was the maximum right? Or only for PC?)
.) at 3000AP: ~70%-78%
.) at 4000AP: ~65%-75%
.) at 5000AP: ~61%-73%

Note: I did not include any crit calculations, this is all normal damage stuff.

As a last test, i reduced Envenom's net loss to 0 (which roughly accounts for an extra IP proc because auf Envenom's application buff which pretty much evens out the DP loss i calculated) and tested the untalented numbers again, with these results:
Eviscerate would be allowed to lose
.) at 2000AP: ~37%-51%
.) at 3000AP: ~26%-45%
.) at 4000AP: ~17%-41%
.) at 5000AP: ~ 9%-37%
which still feels wrong based on everything i read about the topic.

Sidenote: At 10k AP, Envenom pulls ahead starting from 25% armor mitigation.

Conclusion
Is Envenom REALLY the better choice for a finisher? Or more to the point, is that a fact for all gear levels and talent builds? Seems to me it's not from a theoretical PoV. My personal conclusion is that Eviscerate seems to be better suited for combat at low to mid gear level due to the slow build-up of DP stacks and Aggression (+ imp. Evis if you feel like it), and maybe starts to really shine in WoTLK endgame. For assassination, Envenom seems to be superior even at entry-raid levels due to the massively fast build-up and the extra poison talents.

This is my first post, so forgive me if you don't find it well constructed or presented, i just tried to bring a question across while backing up my feelings with some numbers. I probably have some fundamental flaw in my thought process though and would be more than happy to be enlightened regarding this topic. But still, even if i tweak the reapplication rate to unreal values, eviscerate still comes out on top at least for some equipment and mitigation levels.
Where did i turn wrong?

regards
eyesolated

P.S.: Sorry for the wall of text, but i feel this topic wasn't explored in enough detail yet and i couldn't find mathematical proof for the consensus of Envenom being the better Instant Damage Finisher.