You are one of the reasons I had to clean up the mess left behind in the DK thread. From now on, report people who are being stupid and leave the moderating to me.
Oh and bold text is totally awesome and really helps get my point across. I can't believe I didn't think of it until now.
Originally Posted by Consider
With that logic, Anticipation isn't "needed". Toughness isn't "needed". Please. One can make the argument, which you apparantly are, that no fight in Ulduar requires you to be specced in an optimal manner, and perhaps that's true. But it doesn't change the fact that speccing for IIT is optimal, whether or not that level of optimization is required of you.
It's like a dpser not speccing into a straight up X% dps boost talent. Yeah, they don't have to. Yeah, if they don't spec into it they can probably still kill any fight. But that doesn't change the fact that it is rather irrational not to do so (unless there is something better you get in return, but there is nothing better than ITT in terms of DTPS) and that these forums are designed to discuss what is optimal, not ignore it.
Until the day when, as a tank, increasing threat outweighs reducing damage taken, dropping IIT makes no sense. And, at this day, encounter design is not at that point, nor (seemingly) going in that direction.
I'm sorry, but you're wrong.
Anticipation, Toughness, and Blade Barrier are talents that provide benefits that cannot be gotten in any other manner. Thus, they are not in any way comparable to Improved Icy Touch, which can be provided by several other classes and specs.
For the exact same reason, IIT is NOT comparable to a DPSer not speccing for a straight % DPS talent. Those talents cannot be given to your character by others in the raid. IIT can be and, for some people, always will be.
This whole argument came about because of the, bluntly, stupid claim that IIT can never be skipped. IIT is NOT as vital a talent as Anticipation, Toughness, Blade Barrier, et al. It does NOT provide as much damage reduction as any of those talents, and its effects can be provided with zero talent investment.
Finally, increasing threat very well can decrease damage taken. Both Hodir and General Vezax are very threat-sensitive fights, especially on hard mode, which means that increasing your TPS directly increases the raid's DPS. Increasing the raid's DPS directly results in killing the bosses faster, which directly results in reducing the overall amount of damage you take.
I'm not saying that everyone should skip IIT. I'm saying that it's not a required talent. It's possible that some raid compositions will provide that same debuff anyway, and in that case the points spent on IIT are better spent elsewhere. People have been saying that "Not having IIT is not an option", when it's clear to any sane person that it is an OPTION. It may not be a good option for certain raids, but on the other hand, there are almost as many different raids as there are posters in this forum. The better statement (compared to "it is not an option") would be "Make sure the debuff is getting applied on every boss that matters by someone else before you spec out of it".
Originally Posted by Griefknight
Why? Why in the world do you think saying "I WILL avoid 60% of the attacks because my avoidance is at 60%." is better then saying "I may avoid 0%, 100%, or 50% because random is random." ?