Infraction for Foxx2405: 2. All opinions should be stated as succinctly as possible.

Kaubel · 07/27/09, 8:46 AM

Post: DW Builds 3.2 -Revenge of the Offhand (Updated 7/22/09)
User: Foxx2405
Infraction: 2. All opinions should be stated as succinctly as possible.
Points: 1

Administrative Note:

Message to User:

Don't quote-split.

Original Post:

Originally Posted by sweberry

1. "Obliterate doesn't do more with a third disease" - What?

Read my post he commented on. You are reading it out of context.

My remark was that it was so odd that a deep unholy build used obliterate so much with a 1H. Almost as if "it hits harder with a 3th disease than if you spec into deep frost".
Then he said that it doesnt do more damage with a 3th disease, THAN by speccing into deep frost.

2. "2/51/18 isnt far behind 18/54, its only about 200-300 dps" - Are you talking about 17/54 or 18/53, as these specs play very differently? Either way, 200-300 dps in a sim is 200-300 dps in a raid, i would hardly consider that pennies.

Not really, sims are ideal conditions most of the time. These dps differences we see are rather small, about 2%. That difference can easily be made up by abnormalities in the fight, movement, spec preference by a certain boss. Or simply because you feel good playing a certain spec.

3. "I think if the sim randomly killed off your perma ghoul we would see more realistic numbers" - Would you also like to add breaks for running, aoe and bursty moments? This is simming, you simulate the optimal raidsetting, a Patchwerk; there is no raid damage, there is no aoe, there is nothing but straight on single target dps. And even if you would take raid damage into account the only encounters in Ulduar where a perma ghoul-DK would lose his pet would be Mimiron and Yogg (although you just summon it for brain room anyway). Point moot.

Wasn't your previous statement that a sims dps matches real raid dps ?
Anyway the point is that on a lot of fights the ghoul dies (believe me i know i play 2H unholy) and can be a huge liability at times. Bursty moments are quite leveled out, and nobody really cares that much about AoE dps as that is simply neigh impossible to simulate anyway.
However the ghoul for unholy is simply not available or dies a lot on nearly 50% of the ulduar bosses, if not micro managed.
Pet micromanagement makes it a lot better, and makes it managable on pretty much any fight but mimiron/yogg. However pet micro costs dps too.

Patchwerk sims are really nice to compare specs head on, but realistically unholy really suffers on a lot of fights, and though i agree you should not assume that position, you should most definitely take it into consideration.

4. "Then you have to consider that 2/51/18 brings a rarer raid buff than 13% spell damage" - Rather assume that all needed raid buffs are brought already, and that if you go with unholy a shaman will be there to carry the haste-buff. We simulate optimal DPS for ourselves, not for a non-perfect raid.

On this I both agree and disagree. IMO we should compare specs with ideal conditions as basis.
However that does not mean we should discard non-perfect raids. Because the only way you'll get a perfect raid is if you have those buffs, which only happens in 25 man usually.

In a "perfect" raid where you are not taken for your buffs, a deep frost + glyph of disease spec most likely wins.
However if you don't have a perfect 25 man, or you do 10 mans. That is simply not an option because those raid buffs provide more dps than anything else you can think of.

If we start discarding builds with imp IT / Ebon Plaguebringer and Abom Might because: "Others will bring that buff anyway", we're being too shortsighted, and wont help people who eventually will come here for advice.

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I think its also (this is more a general remark) very unwise to assume a position where people will either pick unholy or frost based on dps alone.
People also chose a spec because they like it. Thats why we have unholy / frost / blood 2H topics on this forum, thats also why the unholy DW thread has 2 builds (different playstyles).