5v5 Discussion Thread - Page 3

Keline · 04/05/07, 7:11 PM

Originally Posted by Cel

The whole bubble thing gives paladins a taaaad more survivability. 6 second instant stun is a bonus too.

I've had 5on5s last as long as 3 minutes, 12 second immunity really isn't that awesome
It's awesome when two BURST OR DIE groups clash but the longer the fight lasts, the less powerful it is

Bret · 04/05/07, 7:39 PM

Originally Posted by Keline

I've had 5on5s last as long as 3 minutes, 12 second immunity really isn't that awesome
It's awesome when two BURST OR DIE groups clash but the longer the fight lasts, the less powerful it is

However just being able to be immune is enough to not attack the pally for many teams strats.

If you have an obvious weakness it will be exploited. If you are capable of one thing it will be noted. The biggest instance of this is mages (atleast for my team). If you can ice block we treat them differently that if they couldn't. If you cant its easy. You die first. If you can it depends on the rest of your group makeup and how to handle you.

They not only become immune to attacks but during this time they are pumping out heals. Thus its counterproductive for a lot of teams to force bubble because the result will be lots of heals for that time. Instead they simple try to cc the pally the best they can (which can also lead to bubble)

I dont have experience with resto healing (2000 rating team and im feral

)but when fighting teams with resto druids (a whopping 1 that is near our rating) it is very easy to disrupt them and put them on the run or into bear (which makes them useless as well as drain mana fast)

Davidson · 04/05/07, 8:03 PM

Originally Posted by Bret

However just being able to be immune is enough to not attack the pally for many teams strats.

If you have an obvious weakness it will be exploited. If you are capable of one thing it will be noted. The biggest instance of this is mages (atleast for my team). If you can ice block we treat them differently that if they couldn't. If you cant its easy. You die first. If you can it depends on the rest of your group makeup and how to handle you.

They not only become immune to attacks but during this time they are pumping out heals. Thus its counterproductive for a lot of teams to force bubble because the result will be lots of heals for that time. Instead they simple try to cc the pally the best they can (which can also lead to bubble)

I dont have experience with resto healing (2000 rating team and im feral

)but when fighting teams with resto druids (a whopping 1 that is near our rating) it is very easy to disrupt them and put them on the run or into bear (which makes them useless as well as drain mana fast)

Force a bubble, then dispel it. Haven't seen many other teams do this, but we do it every now and then, just because most paladins have absolutely terrible HP (most think they don't need it). It's even more fun when you catch them trying to heal while you are attacking them and CS them, free kill right there.

Boevis · 04/05/07, 8:25 PM

Originally Posted by Davidson

Force a bubble, then dispel it. Haven't seen many other teams do this, but we do it every now and then, just because most paladins have absolutely terrible HP (most think they don't need it). It's even more fun when you catch them trying to heal while you are attacking them and CS them, free kill right there.

I think this is the reason just about every team 2000+ has a Priest and a Warrior. The Combination of mass dispel, silence, mana burn, and MS effectively shuts down at least one opposing healer within 15 seconds.

That being said about priests, I find that even more powerful for surviving at this point is Blessed Resilience, the ability to remove crits completely under any circumstance is rather spectacular.

Bret · 04/05/07, 8:34 PM

Id be interested to see what most teams first target is. Of course this largely has to do with your opposing teams group makeup.

We typically go after a dps class and cc the healers/annoying classes or split dps on 2 dps classes as needed.

I find it better to just either burn through heals or cc/interrupt the healers on the other team but id be interested in other teams strats.

PapaShlapa · 04/05/07, 9:11 PM

Originally Posted by frmorrison

I have wondered how I can maximize my Felguard usage. I have thought about using a Felhunter at first to silence a caster then 0.5 sec summon the Felguard to stun afterwards, but not sure if that is a great Strat. I am open to ideas as well.

I'd highly recommend against that. Would probably be best to save it for if/when your Felguard dies from you being assisted, to resummon another one. No pet to link off = dead warlock.

The game right now, is definitely built around Warrior & Paladin. Every team revolves around this. Then it just diversifies into either 2heal/3dps setups, or 2.5heal setups, the latter being much stronger(imo).

2heal/dps: Biggest weakness is the dreaded CS on the paladin. As soon as that happens, someone's gonna die almost every time. This setup favors something like...SL Lock, Ice Block mage, and Pain Suppression priest. Priest and mage can break an assist when they're in trouble, and the SL lock should run 14k hp and as much resilience as he can get his hands on, so bursting him will be an almost futile effort.

2.5 heal: This build's strength revolves around its heavy lasting power. With heroism'd mana burn you can suck a paladin dry in 15 seconds. A mage in less. Not as vulnerable to the big CS because of the shaman. Ideal setup would be Priest Shaman Mage. The better people's gear gets with stacked HP and Resil, the better this team will do.

Phixus · 04/05/07, 9:22 PM

Manaburn + Heroism is indeed insane, I suppose the only disadvantage this strategy has is that it requires you to run around with a 3healer team which has some serious disadvantages in crowdcontrol, dps etc.

Regarding Cyclone I'd like to join the whine :p I agree druids need some extra to bring to arena's to be a viable class but the spell right now is just broken (warrior going into a 0-stance, paladin aura getting reset, removing all buffs etc). My suggestion would probably to increase the duration but make it dispelable with Mass-Dispel. There's isnt any debuff in the game yet that requires Mass-dispel to remove it, it would however be an interesting addition in my opinion. Perhaps it would make priest to much of a "must-have" in arena's but I think if cyclone lasts 8sec's for example (with a brutal DR perhaps :[ ) it would be worth to Mass-Dispel it but at the same time not be too good to destroy any team without a priest.

Boevis · 04/05/07, 9:37 PM

Originally Posted by Phixus

My suggestion would probably to increase the duration but make it dispelable with Mass-Dispel. There's isnt any debuff in the game yet that requires Mass-dispel to remove it,

Divine Shield is removable by Mass Dispel.

Fix Cyclone's bugs, and speaking of bugs, give Balance tree a silence that consumes insect swarm or moonfire.

mad-doc · 04/05/07, 9:41 PM

Originally Posted by Bret

Id be interested to see what most teams first target is. Of course this largely has to do with your opposing teams group makeup.

We typically go after a dps class and cc the healers/annoying classes or split dps on 2 dps classes as needed.

I find it better to just either burn through heals or cc/interrupt the healers on the other team but id be interested in other teams strats.

team: pala / resto shaman / ms/dw warrior / we mage / mutilate rogue

3 heal teams - > squishy healer
2 heal teams - > squishy dps

mostly depends on what is running around or what the highest threat is. Priests(both shadow and heal) or warlocks/hunter.
But like already stated depends on the teams because you know some players that have weak gear or some special specs that force you to kill the first or that you can ignore them.

• Snowy · 04/05/07, 9:45 PM

Originally Posted by Boevis

Divine Shield is removable by Mass Dispel.

He means debuff, as in Cyclone is a debuff that you try to remove off a friendly target. Divine Shield is a buff that you try to remove off an enemy. I agree it would be an interesting tweak if MD could remove it, probably not practical in most situations though.

Anticipating when the pally will bubble is the key to using MD effectively, it's not nearly as effective if you're casting it after he's already bubbled. With proper anticipation you can have the MD already "in the air" so to speak and landing right as the pally bubbles.

Recoil · 04/05/07, 9:47 PM

I would have to say of all the teams i've fought, druids and ice mages tend to do the most damage, atleast to our makeup. Usually run a melee heavy group, and chain frost novas even with dispels, can never seem to come fast enough and the dps loss just plain hurts in that time. And as far as cyclone well, I think a chain castable cc that you can rotate on healers is just amazing and annoying. My only real beef is that it is the ONLY CC in the game with 0 counters, I can't even shield out of it, which is just plain frustrating.

Sirloin · 04/05/07, 9:55 PM

Cyclone doesn't last long enough to warrant a mass-dispel. Its a 6 sec duration, often chained to a 3 sec 2nd cyclone. Assuming great reaction time, its going to take 2 sec to notice someone is cycloned, then a 1.5 aoe-targeted cast, add a little lag, and you basically shave 2 seconds off the spell. That gives your target enough time to cast one spell before the second hits. The second cyclone won't last long enough to even be dispelled.

Yes cyclone is a powerful spell, but as mentioned its absolutely essential to give healing druids value in 5v5.

Regarding paladins not being able to shield out of it: This spell is made to CC the most un'ccable class in the game. I'm sure its bane to paladins was definitely considered in its design. Paladins are THE anti-cc between their cleanse on others and Sacrifice and bubble for themselves so I don't think its at all out of line that they have ONE weakness in the CC department.

Tzeni · 04/05/07, 10:11 PM

Originally Posted by Sirloin

Cyclone doesn't last long enough to warrant a mass-dispel. Its a 6 sec duration, often chained to a 3 sec 2nd cyclone. Assuming great reaction time, its going to take 2 sec to notice someone is cycloned, then a 1.5 aoe-targeted cast, add a little lag, and you basically shave 2 seconds off the spell. That gives your target enough time to cast one spell before the second hits. The second cyclone won't last long enough to even be dispelled.

Yes cyclone is a powerful spell, but as mentioned its absolutely essential to give healing druids value in 5v5.

Regarding paladins not being able to shield out of it: This spell is made to CC the most un'ccable class in the game. I'm sure its bane to paladins was definitely considered in its design. Paladins are THE anti-cc between their cleanse on others and Sacrifice and bubble for themselves so I don't think its at all out of line that they have ONE weakness in the CC department.

Cooldowns aside, Fear works pretty well against paladins. And CS/Spell Lock can be considered a CC of sorts as well.

Sweetmurder · 04/05/07, 10:19 PM

The burning question I've been looking for an answer to is; Are restoration shamans worth bringing to a 5v5 team over a pally/priest/druid (all resto/healer speced). It seems that paladin with a shield and priests with their superb survivability outshine a shaman. An earth shield, under what I have seen, does not keep a shaman alive as well as a priests shields, fears, crit protection, prayer of mending etc and a paladins bubble, stun, and blessing of freedom.

It would seem far more profitable to have a priest/paladin over a shaman/priest or shaman/paladin combo (though, to this combo I have heard pretty good things.)

Any who, anyone had experiences verifying my speculations or have information that would show me to be naive of the power of a resto shaman in 5v5?

PapaShlapa · 04/05/07, 10:39 PM

Originally Posted by Sweetmurder

The burning question I've been looking for an answer to is; Are restoration shamans worth bringing to a 5v5 team over a pally/priest/druid (all resto/healer speced). It seems that paladin with a shield and priests with their superb survivability outshine a shaman. An earth shield, under what I have seen, does not keep a shaman alive as well as a priests shields, fears, crit protection, prayer of mending etc and a paladins bubble, stun, and blessing of freedom.

It would seem far more profitable to have a priest/paladin over a shaman/priest or shaman/paladin combo (though, to this combo I have heard pretty good things.)

Any who, anyone had experiences verifying my speculations or have information that would show me to be naive of the power of a resto shaman?

If you're going to bring a shaman, he should be ele/resto I think. Pure resto shamans don't serve well as well as a main healer, and if they're pure resto they can't really assist dps at all as a 3rd healer. It also makes their life much more difficult when it comes to purge and shock. An ele/resto shaman on the train can purge bop, freedom etc instantly because it will pop up on SpellAlertSCT or NECB. Combine that with the ability to shock heals/dps on the first target, and some pretty ludicrous potential burst damage, and you've got yourself a prime candidate for an assist train.