2v2 Arena Thread - Page 14

Darkmantle · 08/09/07, 12:05 PM

Originally Posted by sweep71

Actually, your queues get longer the more teams are playing. True story. It was talked about at blizzcon. I am not sure on what panel. I believe it has to do something with the matching system not keeping up with all the requests. They are working on fixing that. This is why when I play at lunch with my mage buddy, the queues are <1min. But when I play with my lock buddy over the weekends, they are over 5.

I find this to be true as well. But there are a lot of War/Rogue + Healer teams.

If there are only 2 teams on your battle group a 1500 rated and a 1900 rated team then it will take you ages to get a game. Queue times go down and become more consistent the more teams that are playing UNTIL a point when the matching system and arena server get overloaded and then its starts going up again.

Kiklion · 08/09/07, 12:27 PM

Also, some warlocks use a lower rank devour magic so it can only cost 100 mana.

◊ Praetorian · 08/09/07, 12:37 PM

I have a pretty casual 2v2 that I picked up, sham/rogue (I'm resto), to complement my 5v5 that does better but also doesn't get to play as much as I'd like.

Is shaman/rogue at all viable as a pairing? The problem I'm encountering is that we do very well against 2 DPS teams, against teams with casters, and so forth, but have huge problems with warrior+healer, which is obviously a very popular pairing. Warrior/paladin in particular seems simply impossible, and warrior/shaman isn't too much better.

The problem is that if the warrior got on me, with my rogue on their healer, it'd be fine, but even at 1900+ teams don't make that mistake. The warrior gets on the rogue and keeps him hamstrung, and then either you get warrior vs. rogue with the healers off to the side healing them, and MS makes that a losing proposition, or you get the rogue getting kited by their healer while the warrior beats on him.

Any tips or firsthand experience with this combo?

◊ castille · 08/09/07, 12:41 PM

Depending on your rogue, warrior/paladin is basically a burn fight on the warrior. If the warrior is focusing on you, the rogue is trying to kill him fast.. I'm in a rogue/priest 2v2 where I'm the rogue, and this is the only way we can effectively deal with this combo. I kinda wish I had windfury for it, just to get that extra burst in. Wound poison offhand is very effective, shiv it up to full on the warrior, make sure the stack stay on him, expose and let your specials do their work if he's combat swords/maces/fists..

• Maligne · 08/09/07, 12:52 PM

Originally Posted by Praetorian

I have a pretty casual 2v2 that I picked up, sham/rogue (I'm resto), to complement my 5v5 that does better but also doesn't get to play as much as I'd like.

Is shaman/rogue at all viable as a pairing? The problem I'm encountering is that we do very well against 2 DPS teams, against teams with casters, and so forth, but have huge problems with warrior+healer, which is obviously a very popular pairing. Warrior/paladin in particular seems simply impossible, and warrior/shaman isn't too much better.

The problem is that if the warrior got on me, with my rogue on their healer, it'd be fine, but even at 1900+ teams don't make that mistake. The warrior gets on the rogue and keeps him hamstrung, and then either you get warrior vs. rogue with the healers off to the side healing them, and MS makes that a losing proposition, or you get the rogue getting kited by their healer while the warrior beats on him.

Any tips or firsthand experience with this combo?

I play a severely undergeared druid with a BT geared rogue and we have the same problems you're describing, but only with Paladin healers. If it's a priest I can keep the warrior off the rogue long enough for him to kill it from the outset. Also if the warrior is silly enough to try and kill me, I just go bear and we win. But as you mentioned when you get higher up in rating that doesn't really happen.

We have found that a 5 point improved expose armor + faire fire goes a long way to helping us win these fights. My mana can't last anywhere near as long as a pally's, so we usually try and force the bubble and get the kill quickly. Cyclone x2, feral charge, bash, and warstomp is usually enough for the rogue to take out the warrior. We've also found that pallys are very reluctant to use BOP on a melee teammate, which is pretty silly when the only other option is them dying. Also remember that if you force the warrior to use a shield, you've probably already won assuming that you can time some interrupts on the healer. With all that said, we still win less than 50% of these matchups.

So in short, you're in a worse spot than I am due to having less interrupt options. I would just start on the warrior using expose, and try to time some key shocks, warstomps, and blinds.

◊ Praetorian · 08/09/07, 1:21 PM

Well, some more details. The rogue is currently mutilate (I know, not ideal, but hey, he has a 106 DPS 1.9spd mainhand). I have 10.2k hp, 11k armor, 290 resil, 1650 +heal, and >120 mp5 in my pvp set, which is a mix of 3pc season 2, 2pc season 1, and high-end raid gear in most of the other slots. So gear isn't the problem.

Basically, the lack of interrupts really is. I am an orc, so no war stomp. The extent of my ability to hinder opposing healers is earth shocking the occasional heal.

Re: castille, if the warrior were focusing me, then it'd be no problem. But that would be a mistake, and they don't do that. The warrior stops the rogue from hitting anyone but the warrior by hamstring, intercept if he manages to get away, etc., while the healer kites him. If the rogue goes for the healer, then he ends up basically doing no damage while the warrior does tons to him. If the rogue goes for the warrior, then given my inability to do much but earth shock the occasional heal, the only way the warrior is dying is if the other healer runs out of mana. And in a head-on match, with MS in play, even with my gear that just isn't viable. And if the other healer is a paladin, there's no chance at all.

• Maligne · 08/09/07, 1:43 PM

Originally Posted by Praetorian

Well, some more details. The rogue is currently mutilate (I know, not ideal, but hey, he has a 106 DPS 1.9spd mainhand). I have 10.2k hp, 11k armor, 290 resil, 1650 +heal, and >120 mp5 in my pvp set, which is a mix of 3pc season 2, 2pc season 1, and high-end raid gear in most of the other slots. So gear isn't the problem.

Basically, the lack of interrupts really is. I am an orc, so no war stomp. The extent of my ability to hinder opposing healers is earth shocking the occasional heal.

Re: castille, if the warrior were focusing me, then it'd be no problem. But that would be a mistake, and they don't do that. The warrior stops the rogue from hitting anyone but the warrior by hamstring, intercept if he manages to get away, etc., while the healer kites him. If the rogue goes for the healer, then he ends up basically doing no damage while the warrior does tons to him. If the rogue goes for the warrior, then given my inability to do much but earth shock the occasional heal, the only way the warrior is dying is if the other healer runs out of mana. And in a head-on match, with MS in play, even with my gear that just isn't viable. And if the other healer is a paladin, there's no chance at all.

Yikes no stomp. Have you tried switching to your raid/regen gear after you're sure the warrior isn't going for you? Especially at 1900 the other healer probably won't have the best longevity gear, so you might give the outlast game a try. It's a longshot but in order for a rogue to kill a warrior with you only interrupting with shocks it's going to take them making a few mistakes.

◊ Praetorian · 08/09/07, 1:49 PM

Last night I swapped to full raid gear once I realized I was being more or less ignored -- it helped but didn't change the outcome.

• Maestroquark · 08/09/07, 1:56 PM

Though I'm with a holy/disc priest, I've got experience from the Mutilate perspective. Yeah, yeah, shoot me, I'll get Maces when I get more points. It is kind of sad that the final straw was starting to face other rogue/healer teams that will make me not daggers for the first time ever.

Originally Posted by Praetorian

The warrior stops the rogue from hitting anyone but the warrior by hamstring, intercept if he manages to get away, etc.

This is your key issue, yeah. Hamstring is simply devastating. After having an extremely frustating week of about 13 games, with only 2 not including warriors, we haven't seen as much lately and (surprise) our rating is going up. However, here's the experiences we have had:

Warrior/Priest: Easiest setup. We try to turn it into two 1v1 matches. I go for the priest, because a priest getting dispelled by my healer is much more vulnerable to my damage and much less likely to kite me than any other healer. Dwarf priests get a free out with Stoneform, though, so that'd be a good time to blind the Warrior.

Warrior/Druid: Our strat is still being tweaked, but won't work for you as it depends on Mind Control. I open up on the warrior, keep him occupied, keep the druid healing, and the instant the priest MCs I run off for the druid. With some very careful cooldown usage and CP usage (always have Deadly Throw ready!) I have a chance of keeping the druid in range. Odds aren't great, but they're better than me staying on the Warrior.

Warrior/Paladin: We try to turn it into a mana war. There's simply no way I'm ever getting to the Paladin, even with the coming BoF nerf, so our priest works on Mana Burn. Not sure what a shaman would do in a mana war.

Warrior/Shaman: Our own personal nightmare, even more so than Warrior/Paladin. Poison Cleansing, Windfury, and Purge on my priest combine to pack one hell of a wallop. If they go for me, I do everything I can to slow down DPS. Gouge, KS, even Blind if I get low just to slow the warrior down. I'm in pure survival mode, killing any Windfury I see, trying to get my priest enough time to Mana Burn. It generally doesn't work.

As Mutilate, Improved Expose alone probably notched us another ~40 points in rating by tipping some of the close matches to our favor. I'll liberally use Expose and Slice and Dice versus Warriors, and use Rupture often, but not always as Gouge has saved my life quite a bit.

Most often, though, I'll die to an incredible burst (Windfury or Sword Spec), or die because I got chain stunned (Mace spec + weapon) and lost my dodge.

Teewee · 08/09/07, 2:01 PM

Get wodin to respec to shadow step so he can catch up to the warrior.

But honestly I'm not too sure what can be done in that situation.

• Maligne · 08/09/07, 2:09 PM

Originally Posted by Maestroquark

Though I'm with a holy/disc priest, I've got experience from the Mutilate perspective. Yeah, yeah, shoot me, I'll get Maces when I get more points. It is kind of sad that the final straw was starting to face other rogue/healer teams that will make me not daggers for the first time ever.

This is your key issue, yeah. Hamstring is simply devastating. After having an extremely frustating week of about 13 games, with only 2 not including warriors, we haven't seen as much lately and (surprise) our rating is going up. However, here's the experiences we have had:

Warrior/Priest: Easiest setup. We try to turn it into two 1v1 matches. I go for the priest, because a priest getting dispelled by my healer is much more vulnerable to my damage and much less likely to kite me than any other healer. Dwarf priests get a free out with Stoneform, though, so that'd be a good time to blind the Warrior.

Warrior/Druid: Our strat is still being tweaked, but won't work for you as it depends on Mind Control. I open up on the warrior, keep him occupied, keep the druid healing, and the instant the priest MCs I run off for the druid. With some very careful cooldown usage and CP usage (always have Deadly Throw ready!) I have a chance of keeping the druid in range. Odds aren't great, but they're better than me staying on the Warrior.

Warrior/Paladin: We try to turn it into a mana war. There's simply no way I'm ever getting to the Paladin, even with the coming BoF nerf, so our priest works on Mana Burn. Not sure what a shaman would do in a mana war.

Warrior/Shaman: Our own personal nightmare, even more so than Warrior/Paladin. Poison Cleansing, Windfury, and Purge on my priest combine to pack one hell of a wallop. If they go for me, I do everything I can to slow down DPS. Gouge, KS, even Blind if I get low just to slow the warrior down. I'm in pure survival mode, killing any Windfury I see, trying to get my priest enough time to Mana Burn. It generally doesn't work.

As Mutilate, Improved Expose alone probably notched us another ~40 points in rating by tipping some of the close matches to our favor. I'll liberally use Expose and Slice and Dice versus Warriors, and use Rupture often, but not always as Gouge has saved my life quite a bit.

Most often, though, I'll die to an incredible burst (Windfury or Sword Spec), or die because I got chain stunned (Mace spec + weapon) and lost my dodge.

I second the maces > mutilate comment. The string of profanities coming from my dagger rogue partner is neverending when he goes up against a mace rogue. He's switching once the BT trash mace drops for him.

Mutilate is very nice for taking out priests though.

Chucifer · 08/09/07, 2:15 PM

Originally Posted by Praetorian

Well, some more details. The rogue is currently mutilate (I know, not ideal, but hey, he has a 106 DPS 1.9spd mainhand).

A few thoughts
I understand that it's a casual team, but what about having the rogue spec differently? Perhaps trying the bleed game with serrated blades? The other thought would be to have the rogue bring a couple of macro'ed weapons with different poisons so that Mind numbing and a layered poison can be applied on the Paladin initially and then swapped out for some sustained damage to the warrior?

This fight just seems too difficult for the rogue if it lasts too long, so a build/gameplan to focus more on the burst may just be the ticket.

malthrin · 08/09/07, 2:18 PM

There are two ways you can fight Warrior+Paladin as Shaman+Rogue - mana war, or bursting down the Warrior. If you're going for a mana war approach, make sure you're using every opportunity to drink while denying same to their Paladin. If you toss an Earth Shield a couple of seconds before the Rogue Kidney Shots (assuming after trinket is used), you'll likely have 7-8 seconds where a heal isn't required - get some drink ticks in. Also important in the mana war is to keep both enemies purged - Wisdom off the Paladin, Light/Might off the Warrior, and especially cooldowns like Divine Illumination. A Shaman who continually purges Light's Grace (the .5sec cast time reduction on Holy Light) is quite annoying.

The other approach is to burn down the Warrior during a blind. This will only work if you've already made the Paladin trinket and bubble, but if the opposition uses it too early you can go into this strat. Opening on the Paladin with CS->KS may be enough to make him trinket KS; might be worth not having an Earth Shield out and casting an LB or two to get him scared about a 2dps team and encourage him to trinket. To encourage him to bubble, stay close and R1 Earth Shock as often as possible, and if the Paladin is sloppy on positioning shiv Mind Numbing onto him too. It'll get Cleansed, but the idea is to cost him global cooldowns enough that he can't afford to have the next heal Earth Shocked, and has to bubble. Purging Light's Grace is big again here. If you've made him trinket, and you've made him bubble, then you can go for a kill by purging Sacrifice and Blinding.

You can also kill some Paladins that are undergeared survivability-wise, but that gets less and less possible as Warriors get better and Maces become more common.

• Maestroquark · 08/09/07, 2:29 PM

Originally Posted by Maligne

Mutilate is very nice for taking out priests though.

Mutilate is very nice for taking out any caster, really. But since a Mutilate Rogue's biggest issues are Warriors and Combat Rogues, and they're very common, it doesn't really matter what Mutilate is good for.

Grailyn · 08/09/07, 3:04 PM

Gurg you are Scissors.
Warrior + Healer = Rock.
Double Caster = Paper.

Very few combos have a real shot at beating every other combo it's 2's.

Some very good idea's are already listed in this thread. Your at an inherent disadvantage but there are things you can do to level things a bit and win if they get sloppy.

• Wodin · 08/09/07, 3:26 PM

A few thoughts
I understand that it's a casual team, but what about having the rogue spec differently? Perhaps trying the bleed game with serrated blades? The other thought would be to have the rogue bring a couple of macro'ed weapons with different poisons so that Mind numbing and a layered poison can be applied on the Paladin initially and then swapped out for some sustained damage to the warrior?

It's certainly possible that bleeds would be more effective on the warrior - the general tactic for opening on a hardened target is putting SnD up, Exposing, and then using Rupture as necessary with the possibility of a KS -> CB Mutilate -> Mutilate burst.

As far as applying poisons to the paladin, I get basically one opportunity - the initial opener. Depending on the paladin and his communication with his partner I can sometimes stay on them long enough to force a bubble(thank god for purge), but once that's happened and they've skipped out of range Hamstring and JoJ pretty much prevents any chance of that happening again. I generally run Wound MH/Crippling OH with an OH weapon with mind-numbing in my bag that I macro in to Shiv if I think it's worth the risk of losing the snare and the damage.

Thanks for the ideas(from everyone, not just Bias) - it'll be interesting to try them out.

Aphyrax · 08/09/07, 3:43 PM

Originally Posted by Maestroquark

This is your key issue, yeah. Hamstring is simply devastating. After having an extremely frustating week of about 13 games, with only 2 not including warriors, we haven't seen as much lately and (surprise) our rating is going up. However, here's the experiences we have had:

I haven't seen many warriors at all lately in 2v2. Pretty much only rogues and warlocks. This is probably due to the fact warrior/pally has become very weak since warlock/healer steals its lunch. And everyone is playing that these days. Warrior/druid is more robust (even if less powerful due to less synergies), but I have not seen too much of that either in the 1900-2000 bracket that we usually inhabit. From the armory there seem to be quite a few high ranked teams of that makeup, so I guess it will trickle down eventually.

Originally Posted by Praetorian

Re: castille, if the warrior were focusing me, then it'd be no problem. But that would be a mistake, and they don't do that.

This is not always the case in my experience (playing warrior/druid). I can kite a rogue pretty much forever (even JoJ'ed), because once his cooldowns are used he has no real way of closing the gap. But it requires me to cyclone the rogue, which makes killing him harder. So after losing a few times to makeups we should not lose to (I consider all rogue/healer lineups to be in that category), we came up with a new plan. I do whatever to stay alive, he hits whatever he can hit. This more than once involved him killing the pally while I kited the rogue.

Analyzing our games I think the biggest mistake a warrior can make in a warrior/druid lineup is to not hit stuff when he could hit something. It does not matter if the something is a pally or resto shaman. If the rogue is behind a pillar and the pally is in plain sight, get on the pally. Every second of not hitting something is wasted rage. This also involves frequent target switching. We don't plan to burst down anyone anyway so it does not matter who the healer has to heal.

In short, I found it to be detrimental for the warrior to just stick to one target.

lav · 08/09/07, 3:49 PM

I am playing my shaman casually with a well geared combat spec rogue. So far we have done ok plus having lots of fun. Warrior/paladin teams I think come down to the quality of the players plus their gear. Combat rogues can be effective against warriors. Seems like with the better pvp gear I get the better everything seems to go.

Ragnor · 08/10/07, 6:07 AM

I played with a mutilate rogue last season in 2's, same problem couldn't get past late 1800's, early 1900 due to the fact that 1v1 backed by a healer a rogue will always lose to a warrior.

I've seen a warrior on 20% kill a rogue on 100% before dying many times after both healers were oom.

I think prep is pretty much required for the rogue to do enough burst damage to equal or surpass the warriors burst.

Tower · 08/10/07, 12:54 PM

Originally Posted by Ragnor

I think prep is pretty much required for the rogue to do enough burst damage to equal or surpass the warriors burst.

Prep in no way allows for more burst than many other PvP specs. Prep is about control, not burst. Full combat and Mutilate builds are the most burst you're going to get, considering Shadowstep opener burst is really not an argument in TBC considering no one in their right mind is going to get 2-3 shotted in arena by a rogue.

• KinetiK · 08/10/07, 1:51 PM

Originally Posted by nfw

Is the scarlet dog whistle useable in arena?

No it is not.

• Calantus · 08/10/07, 8:36 PM

Originally Posted by Tower

Prep in no way allows for more burst than many other PvP specs. Prep is about control, not burst. Full combat and Mutilate builds are the most burst you're going to get, considering Shadowstep opener burst is really not an argument in TBC considering no one in their right mind is going to get 2-3 shotted in arena by a rogue.

AR + Prep