I just started running Resto Shaman/Warrior in 2v2 and have already run into a brick wall on Mage/Rogue teams. Against any of these teams where the players are even half competent we stand no chance. Granted I can kite them around (particularly in BEM) for several minutes, ultimately I will eventually screw a Grounding Totem or heal up and die.
The warrior has about two seconds of DPS time in before he is put back into poly assuming I actually am in range to ES the first poly. If he actually does any real damage to either opponent they both can just leave combat and drink/eat/bandage with impunity making it impossible to play the HP attrition game that is possible with certain other no healer teams.
As far as I can tell this combo is basically an auto loss. Has anyone who has been playing this combo had any better experience with this match up? Have you had any luck as rogue/shaman against this setup Gurgthock?
It's a horrible matchup for us too. We've won a couple but only with a gear advantage and a situation that the mage clearly misplayed. And once you're over 2k neither of those is going to happen too often.
Any team with a Mage is going to be pretty painful as a Resto Shaman...they eat us alive, playing as they do to our two biggest weaknesses (CC and interrupts). Our 2s team lost almost 50 rating tonight (27- and 20-point losses)to Mage/Warrior and Warlock/Warrior teams, simply because I was CC'd start-to-finish and MS made my rare healing opportunities ineffective. Now, those teams will never climb the ladder at all...they're terrible against so many match-ups. But if you are unfortunate enough to run into them, they'll play a pretty frustrating spoiler team for Resto Shaman teams. Just one of those situations where Shamans are very weak and Paladins/Druids are very strong.
Somewhat related...how should we (Resto Shaman/Warrior) handle Druid/Warrior teams? Ideally it seems like we'd go for the Druid, preventing him from playing a CC role and denying the Warrior extra rage while he's beating on me. On Lordaeron, however, there's so much open space that it's extremely difficult to actually pin the Druid down, so we go on the Warrior and try to beat out the Druid at the outlast game. We've had some success both ways, but it's always a very close game win or lose.
Finally, I can't for the life of me figure out why Mana Tide has a HUGE obvious graphic but Innervate does not. I almost never catch Innervate for this reason and it's a big pain.
Innervate has a flasy graphic when activated and it does last for a while.
Take this advise with a grain of salt (I'm a Feral druid teaming with a MS warrior in teams that don't play nearly enough to get a decent rating), but take advantage of the fact that Druids can't cleanse movement slowing effects on others.
If you can keep the warrior kited around, your warrior should be able to deal with the druid. Especially since he'll have to be in squishy form to heal.
--
Now that my rogue is finishing up gathering honour/marks @ lvl 69, what combo would you recommend for her in 2v2 ? Currently hemo specced, will go combat mace once I've grabbed the Arena weapons.
Well as a Shaman, I don't really have a kiting option for Warriors unless their Warrior intercept/hamstrings mine and I can get around an obstacle quickly (not much of an option seeing as their Warrior will likely not be snared, and I need to be at close range and in LOS for a Frost Shock, with Hamstring still on me). Another big Shaman weakness is the lack of any "escape," so unless the Warrior is really negligent I'll never be able to get away, and even if I do he's got a 15-second Intercept.
Basically, against a high-end Druid/Warrior team (there's one from Ret in particular) we have to stick to their Warrior and just deal with the fact that we're feeding him rage and probably keeping him Enraged the whole time. Unless we can draw the Druid into close quarters (possible in Nagrand especially) he'll just get away and run around in travel form.
I play on a druid/warrior team myself. I am feral however.
I have to admit any time we come up against shaman/warrior its just an "easy" win for us*. With myself always being in range of the shaman and with roots, maim etc I can always allow my warrior to catch up, it just is not possible for the shaman to escape. The warrior usually jumps on me, so I switch to bear and start to use my interrupts. Once my interrupts are down my wariror usually just queues heroic strikes so he can pummel the inevitable heal, then we have warstomp on both of us. It is simply a matchup. Much like most of 2v2 we have the class advantage and I really do not see what can be done about it unfortunately.
My team has peaked at 2k rating, and dropped as low as 1700 rating. It simply depends on the class makeups we meet. Anything with a rogue is usually a win but anything with a frost mage or two is often a loss. Its just the nature of 2v2 and its not always possible to have a strat other than be far overgeared for your opponents (as is the case for my team against dual frost mages for example).
Shamans are just very reliant on their partner for survival. Priests too to a lesser degree, but they seem to have far more ability to heal while under pressure (which seems odd to me). Also an issue is that shamans simply do not have the ability to outlast mana wise, so its very tough for them in 2v2.
*Ok, it is not always easy, but we have yet to lose to shaman/warrior =).
There is light at the end of the tunnel.
The only problem is, it's often an incoming train.
We're finding our toughest matchups are against Shadow Priest/Warlock teams. We've found that neutralizing the felhunter is next to impossible, and they really make things tough for us with the silences and debuffs and such. Is there merit to the strategy of burning down the Lock first before tackling the Priest? We found that strategy gave us the best chance at winning (of the strategies we've tried so far).
That strategy would make sense, as it would allow you to cc the priest more, and the priest could just dispel your priest's dots without ua. Its a tricky match up, but try to make the best use of your cool downs, using ice block to get a full stack of dots off early, cold snapping right after using frost nova and ice block and WE are down, etc.
You'll probably want to use your first CS on the lock, and silence on the priest once he's out of sheep to let diminishing returns wind down.
With lots more experience now around 2100ish shaman/rogue, it simply isn't possible to beat appropriately geared (i.e., what you'd expect from a 2k+ team -- full S2 or equivalent, with honor gear or good PvE stuff in other slots) warrior/paladin unless the warrior makes a crucial mistake. The only times we've ever managed have been when the warrior foolishly sticks to me and lets my rogue partner have free reign with the paladin. With good gear and Earth Shield and dancing around pillars trying to drop hamstring + Earthbind, I can survive for a long time against a single warrior. Of course in the meantime my partner has to deal with the paladin's DS and BoP, bearing in mind that I'm almost certainly not going to be close enough to purge the paladin, unless the warrior is really truly retarded and is standing within intercept range of the rogue and simply choosing not to do it. But it's definitely doable, and if the match unfolds this way, saving Bloodlust until after the paladin has bubbled, you can pull it off.
I came to prety much the same conclusion after one night hovering around 1800.
Roge + Shaman really has no decent shot at Warrior Healer teams, and there are a crap load of warrior healer teams in the lower brackets.
I once faced a warrior pally team that let me Drink back a huge amount of mana while the warrior and rogue were beating on each other. We still lost......
For what it's worth, Wodin and I somehow managed to beat a few actual 2100ish warrior/paladin teams, by, believe it or not, running the paladin out of mana. Wodin would get on the paladin at the start when possible, but then switch to the warrior once the warrior engaged him and hamstrung. A key is that I was actually able to sneak in a few quick drink ticks here and there thanks to a bit of kiting, stuns, and earth shield, whereas I made sure the paladin never could. These were legit 2100ish teams with both players in full S2/honor gear. I probably have a bit of an advantage due to my PvE gear in several slots which keeps me at 120 mp5 and 1600ish +heal in my fulltime PvP set.
We won twice, then lost in a rematch (but by a very slim margin) when the warrior got a bit smarter. The key for him was to keep switching between the rogue and myself. Earth Shield is the key. ES on my rogue is what lets me take tiny breaks here and there and sustain my mana. ES on myself is totally necessary to actually survive a well-geared mace warrior beating on me, because with without the pushback protection, combined with stuns and pummel, it becomes a precarious situation in a hurry. But ES costs 900 mana. When he switches it forces me to recast it prematurely for the most part, which burns through my mana faster than I can sustain. I don't know if that was the intent behind the plan, but it definitely was a good idea.
For what it's worth, Wodin and I somehow managed to beat a few actual 2100ish warrior/paladin teams, by, believe it or not, running the paladin out of mana. Wodin would get on the paladin at the start when possible, but then switch to the warrior once the warrior engaged him and hamstrung. A key is that I was actually able to sneak in a few quick drink ticks here and there thanks to a bit of kiting, stuns, and earth shield, whereas I made sure the paladin never could. These were legit 2100ish teams with both players in full S2/honor gear. I probably have a bit of an advantage due to my PvE gear in several slots which keeps me at 120 mp5 and 1600ish +heal in my fulltime PvP set.
We won twice, then lost in a rematch (but by a very slim margin) when the warrior got a bit smarter. The key for him was to keep switching between the rogue and myself. Earth Shield is the key. ES on my rogue is what lets me take tiny breaks here and there and sustain my mana. ES on myself is totally necessary to actually survive a well-geared mace warrior beating on me, because with without the pushback protection, combined with stuns and pummel, it becomes a precarious situation in a hurry. But ES costs 900 mana. When he switches it forces me to recast it prematurely for the most part, which burns through my mana faster than I can sustain. I don't know if that was the intent behind the plan, but it definitely was a good idea.
How did you keep the paladin from drinking and still manage to drink at the same time?
How did you keep the paladin from drinking and still manage to drink at the same time?
By him saying "I made sure the paladin could never drink" it could mean that either he yelled at his rogue buddy to go smack the pally for a second or two to keep the pally in combat and let the shaman drop it or it could mean, for example, his rogue friend was on the pally for a bit, the shaman sits back. Gets out of combat and drinks for a few seconds. Soon as the paladin tries to drink though the shaman stands up and shocks the pally.
Well... on a different topic. I play a feral druid/ms warrior. We are exceptionally dependant on what classes we get. However I would love to know if anyone can conceieve a method to beat a Frost Mage and Soul Link Warlock team. Just seems to me we have absolutely no counters for this. Sheep is just devestating if it cannot be removed =( Add in all the fast casting CC and we just go splat, horribly =) dropped from 1850 rating to just below 1700 thanks to meeting 5 different teams with this exact setup =/.
I understand its going to be very very tough for a warrior and feral to beat that team (2v2 is very much rock, paper, scissors with Warlocks being those nuclear bombs that we all hate! =) but advice on how someone with a similar setup beat this team setup would be great =).
There is light at the end of the tunnel.
The only problem is, it's often an incoming train.
I'm wondering whether BM Hunter + Warlock is viable in terms of 2v2 Arena.
Currently we're 1524 rating (48-47 w/l)
Me 48-46 (invited a bad spriest in lost a few games leading me to have more losses then my team mate)
Him 47-43
I started off as 24/37 we were basically dead even with Wins/Losses and then we lost the occasional game and fell just behind 1500. I respecced to 45/5/11 for both PvE and PvP and it worked out for a while, we had won 7-4 games in one week with very terrible gear. Last week I specced 6/44/11, we figured it would give us the hybrid burst damage we needed to make this combination work. We got 6 - 4 that week and were on a winning streak of 6 - 1 until we came up against a few good healing/dps teams, we had finally beaten the Warrior/Paladin combo and a Warrior/Rogue combo and were pretty satisfied with that considering they were a few of the combinations we struggled with previously.
I haven't found my self using Shadow Bolts as much as I should have, I really haven't had enough time to get them in with so many silences and interrupts from casters/ranged/melee 's etc... I've found my self using Shadow Burn a lot... But I'm wondering whether a 20/41 FG build may work better? Or perhaps I could get some more suggestions on what our combination should be doing.
How can we make this work and get into the 1600s, or even better 1700s?
By him saying "I made sure the paladin could never drink" it could mean that either he yelled at his rogue buddy to go smack the pally for a second or two to keep the pally in combat and let the shaman drop it or it could mean, for example, his rogue friend was on the pally for a bit, the shaman sits back. Gets out of combat and drinks for a few seconds. Soon as the paladin tries to drink though the shaman stands up and shocks the pally.
Well... on a different topic. I play a feral druid/ms warrior. We are exceptionally dependant on what classes we get. However I would love to know if anyone can conceieve a method to beat a Frost Mage and Soul Link Warlock team. Just seems to me we have absolutely no counters for this. Sheep is just devestating if it cannot be removed =( Add in all the fast casting CC and we just go splat, horribly =) dropped from 1850 rating to just below 1700 thanks to meeting 5 different teams with this exact setup =/.
I understand its going to be very very tough for a warrior and feral to beat that team (2v2 is very much rock, paper, scissors with Warlocks being those nuclear bombs that we all hate! =) but advice on how someone with a similar setup beat this team setup would be great =).
I play on a lock/mage team, and my only guess to stand a chance would be using cyclone/feral charge/bash at key times to interrupt, and creative use of line of sight. By creative use of line of sight, think of it this way: normally against warrior/druid it'd be my job to control the warrior and the lock's job to control the druid (as war can't be feared while druid can't be sheeped), so if you can manage to LoS the mage while the warrior goes after the lock, cyclone the mage, then go after the lock, you might stand a chance...
A warrior paladin team managed to beat us the other day by abusing line of sight in said way in nagrand, though we stomped them the next time we faced them and they weren't in as good a position to LoS us.
Basically its a tough fight for you, but try to use your interrupts to swing the course of the fight, such as cycloning after a death coil, to counter sheep, etc.
After a couple weeks of 2v2, it really seems like there aren't any viable pairings in this bracket. Pretty much everyone is solely dependant on who they face..there are teams my warrior/shaman will destroy, and there are teams where we essentially have no chance. Now, granted, the shaman isn't geared up in honor equipment yet, and this could change things slightly, but I don't see many things that could go differently. If the other team has a healer, we win, because I can kill a healer before they can kill mine (It is also surprising how stupidly durable a resto shaman is in the arena nowadays. We haven't lost to War/Pal yet).
Now, take all of this with a grain of salt, as we just started doing this stuff in S2 and there are clearly things we haven't learned and gear we haven't gotten...but teams like Frost Mage/Paladin, Frost Mage/Warrior, basically anyone with 2 hard targets are impossible to kill, at least until the shaman can survive longer. By comparison, a shaman provides so much extra to a warrior that vs certain matchups, I almost feel bad for them since they have no chance right out of the gate. I enjoy being able to do some arena without needing 5 guys all focused intently on PvP, but it really seems like your success in 2v2 depends more upon who you face rather than what your team makeup is.
For what it's worth, Wodin and I somehow managed to beat a few actual 2100ish warrior/paladin teams, by, believe it or not, running the paladin out of mana.
Don't know why he would be switching target against rogue+shaman. It's an impossible mana battle for you if the war+paly do everything they could.
I'd be controling the fight by beating on the rogue and drag him close enough to you (the rogue's healer) while telling my paladin to position himself properly. This is to intercept and keep you from healing rogue when I have a chance to finish him. When your rogue happen to drop to 30% expect an intercept, and a pummel incoming. Then expect my Intimidating shout (to cool stun DR) then HoJ from my paladin (if you happen to have deepwound you'll get the HoJ before intimidating shout). With all those I'd have a good chance to finish your rogue every 2-3min. If I can't I'll do it againt in 2-3min. We'd have no problem going all the way til the end when you run out of mana. (make sure when this happen your rogue doesn't chase the warrior unless he's going to throw a 5pt kidney so you and him can run away to recover.)
War+paladin would be an impossible matchup for rogue+shaman is what I'm saying. We control the fight and have much more potential dps against your team since we have good ways to mitigate your damage. On top of that I'd be doing everything possible to increase my already good odds. (Heck I put on a shield and go def stance when the rogue pop adrenaline rush)
When the warrior opens with 5 sunders on your rogue, then demoshout, the paladin switches to devo aura and perhaps change blessings.. you know you're in for some fierce competition.
What comp can beat Warlock/Druid? It seems impossible for Warrior/Priest to beat them. Here are my options:
1. Kill the pet, and then kill the warlock.
After I kill the first pet, the lock uses Fel Domination and summons a second. After the second dies or gets close to dying, the warlock starts summoning another pet. Repeat until I've killed 4+ pets and my priest is out of mana because of Drain Mana and myself getting rooted and cycloned. We lose.
2. Kill the warlock.
I hamstring the pet and warlock, and try to kill the lock, interrupting as many Drain Manas as I can. My priest runs out of mana before their druid because of Drain Mana and myself getting rooted and cycloned. Their warlock can easily keep himself up through Drain Life and Siphon life. We lose.
3. Kill the druid.
I hamstring the pet and lock and attempt to kill the druid, interrupting as many casts as I can. My priest runs out of mana before their druid because of Drain Mana and myself getting rooted and cycloned. We lose.
Interrupt the cyclone!
It's impossible for me to interrupt every Cyclone. Every time the druid warstomps, bashes, roots, or uses nature's grasp he can get a free cyclone off. I can trinket one of those combos every 2minutes.
Tell your priest to l2dispell roots.
My priest spends 5+ dispels on me because of the combination of DoTs, 30% resist to dispel druid talent, and a stack of Tainted Blood.
What comp can beat Warlock/Druid? It seems impossible for Warrior/Priest to beat them. Here are my options:
1. Kill the pet, and then kill the warlock.
After I kill the first pet, the lock uses Fel Domination and summons a second. After the second dies or gets close to dying, the warlock starts summoning another pet. Repeat until I've killed 4+ pets and my priest is out of mana because of Drain Mana and myself getting rooted and cycloned. We lose.
2. Kill the warlock.
I hamstring the pet and warlock, and try to kill the lock, interrupting as many Drain Manas as I can. My priest runs out of mana before their druid because of Drain Mana and myself getting rooted and cycloned. Their warlock can easily keep himself up through Drain Life and Siphon life. We lose.
3. Kill the druid.
I hamstring the pet and lock and attempt to kill the druid, interrupting as many casts as I can. My priest runs out of mana before their druid because of Drain Mana and myself getting rooted and cycloned. We lose.
Interrupt the cyclone!
It's impossible for me to interrupt every Cyclone. Every time the druid warstomps, bashes, roots, or uses nature's grasp he can get a free cyclone off. I can trinket one of those combos every 2minutes.
Tell your priest to l2dispell roots.
My priest spends 5+ dispels on me because of the combination of DoTs, 30% resist to dispel druid talent, and a stack of Tainted Blood.
Sit on the warlock, while priest mana burns druid? Honestly i dont think it should be hard matchup for you. Atleast for my team in 1800 range (melee sham instead of warrior)
If druid runs away to drink, priest should keep him away from warlock and meet him with psyhic scream.. I believe it is enough time to finish him.
Well... on a different topic. I play a feral druid/ms warrior. We are exceptionally dependant on what classes we get. However I would love to know if anyone can conceieve a method to beat a Frost Mage and Soul Link Warlock team. Just seems to me we have absolutely no counters for this. Sheep is just devestating if it cannot be removed =( Add in all the fast casting CC and we just go splat, horribly =) dropped from 1850 rating to just below 1700 thanks to meeting 5 different teams with this exact setup =/.
It's incredibly annoying, I know.
I play the exact same setup, and the only time we win is if we get the warlock down fast enough. Ultra-Flash Shadow Reflector is part of my PvP kit and reflecting Deathcoil works a treat. Unfortunately those Reflectors are slightly unreliable but it'll do you more good than most other trinkets.
Once the Warlock is dead, it's most likely you vs the Frost Mage, which should be doable.
What comp can beat Warlock/Druid? It seems impossible for Warrior/Priest to beat them. Here are my options:
2v2 is all about setup =). My team destroys druid healers. Myself being feral and my partner being an MS warrior means the druid can never outrun me and he never heals himself effectively due to MS. I slow the druid down to allow my warrior friend to catch up and once he starts to spamstring, that druid is toast. We have a lot of luck with non paladin healer + DPS teams. We can usually splat the healer fast enough to then quickly heal up and kill his DPS. Our problems begin when we come across 2 DPs teams with CC. Warlock/mage or mage/mage means my friend sits there in sheep as they kill me =(.
We find rating in 2v2 is a lottery. We got to 1929 and from 1500-1900 we did not meet a single SL warlock or frost mage. Int he last 3 days we have fought Frost mage / SL lock, Dual Frost mage. Pally / SL lock, Pally / frostmage and been crushed. Now we have around 1650 rating. Its all about queueing up when there are a lot of teams your setup has an advantage on, and stop queueing when you find your "nemesis" teams are queueing.
For me and my friend, we play for fun. If we get beaten by a team that we know we will either REALLLLLY struggle to beat or have no chance if they know how to play, then I say lets go again fast! simply because I want to practice on them and develop strats to maybe give us a chance next time, or heck in a months time.
Originally Posted by Borland
Spec heal and go standart war/healing druid ... then youll stomp them.
I don't want to respec every night for arena then back for raiding. Nor do I enjoy resto. All I want are starts or tips others in my situation found useful =).
There is light at the end of the tunnel.
The only problem is, it's often an incoming train.
I know we (Paladin / SL Lock, that your team dominated; 1-4 last week -.-) can't beat the combo no matter how much we outplay them by. People say a good Druid / Warrior stands a fair chance and I have a couple former guild mates that tell me they don't have a problem against it playing Paladin / Warrior, but I don't see it against a good Warlock/Druid. Like you said, they can pretty much get away with infinite pet summons and, if by some miracle, you manage to get the druid low on mana, they can always let the sacrifice healing the pet for a shadow melded drink.
Come with a ton of water, make sure your healer is drinking EVERY time combat breaks, and hope that they eventually make a mistake.
Last edited by Toppazz : 09/07/07 at 9:24 AM.
Reason: Typo
Warrior/Druid beats lock/drood most of the time, by me simply mocking blowing the felhunter and bursting it down behind a pillar out of line of sight of the healer. When he does fel dom I use aoetaunt and do the same, after he used that it's pretty much won since my druid and I can interrupt him quite a bit with feral charge, bash and pummel. Then my druid just plays the cyclone game with the other and I go 1on1 with the lock, without soullink he dies pretty quickly and we win easily.
Of course some games if we don't manage to get the pet down or if the druid is wearing pve gear I just go for him and mine kites the lock around. Mace stuns obviously win there.
Ways we can lose in is if they're extremely well geared and my druid gets an unlucky fear far away (ie down the ramp in blades edge) and I get bursted down while rooted or simply if I can't get the druid down before the warlock kills mine. Nagrand is hell for this, with curse of exhaustion and against a good kiter it's IMPOSSIBLE to catch him around a pillar >.<
By the way;
Do all battlegroups have the team selling problem in the 2on2 ladder? Our BG (misery) has pretty much 5 teams in the top 20 that are sold to retards just for netherdrake purposes. I don't care much about that except that when you face a 1.9k rated team that plays like they'd be 2.3k it's -30 points or +1 <.<
This week and the last we met the same pala+warrior combo (which is really really hard for warrior druid) playing in FOUR different teams. Even if we lose once it's like starting over for the week.
Last week that team was 1.3k rating, then Hexor + Malfarion played it up to 2.2kish. We lost 50 points to them and gained 10. If they would've been playing in their main team it would've been +/- 0.
09/03/07, 4:09 PM
Similar Threads
