Imp slam is an amazing talent and don't let anyone else tell you otherwise, though if you're pvp-specced, you're likely to have imp intercept.

Well, your numbers kinda prove my point?
Let's take a warrior with 2000 ap and season 2 gladiator weapon.
Maximum MS hit on 0 resilience and 0 armor: 549 + (2000/14)*3.3 + 210 = 1230
Maximum MS crit on 0 resilience: 1230*2.2 = 2706
Maximum white hit: 549 + (2000/14)*3.6 = 1036
Maximum MS crit on 400 resilience: (1230*2*0.8-1230)*1.2 + 1230 = 2116 (resilience formula taken from the resilience thread on this forum)
Damage gained from having the MS crit: 2116-1230 = 886
Damage gained from getting a swordspec proc from the MS: 1036 (white hit)
Additionally, you can have the white hit crit at your normal critrate, further increasing the average damage gain from that.

So yes, getting an extra attack is preferrable to critting.

Re: Rage dump for Arms in arena when MS and WW are on cooldown:

Get Improved Slam. Once you try it, you'll love it any never spec for pvp without it.

Basically, if you're an arms warrior, then HS should be the last thing you use, ever. It is, IMHO, a complete waste of hotbar space and rage for any MS build.

Improved slam is, as others have pointed out, an excellent addition to your attack cycle in rage-rich environments, and slamspam has its uses in PVE as well.

Incidentally, I think the reason so many people have such a great view of (for arms builds) such a lacklustre talent is simply due to the fact that warriors learn it so early.

Of course, HS is the win for DW fury builds, but that's not what we're talking about here.

It's worth noting that a sword spec proc is subject to missing, being parried, etc. I really think sword spec is overhyped for this reason; very very rarely does the extra attack land and crit. I saw it happen twice in a month's worth of constant PvP testing. This is why I prefer the static 5% crit; as I noted below my numbers in my first post axe spec grants a noticeable increase to my crit rate; from experience against non-resilient targets the magic number for large numbers of crit chains is about 31%. With axe, you are more able to approach the 41% needed to maintain a respectable crit rate against even highly resilient targets.

In short, would you rather often crit eight times in the same fight, or have a chance to get one extra white attack that might not even land?

This looks like an appropriate thread.

I have a warrior alt with a decision to make - which merciless 2h weapon gives the most value in a 3x3 bracket.
My team is made of druid/shaman/warrior with both druid and shaman being resto. By the looks of it, I should focus on upgrading damage (or, burst damage) as a priority, where sword is probably the best choice. On the other hand, the mace stun can give me more control over the target as well as extra 3 seconds for another hit, quite possibly compensating for the damage loss.
The question is, does the mace stun proc outweight the sword burst in the long run. Afaik, the stun chance is around 10% on a 3.6 speed weapon.
My healers are capable of keeping themselves alive most of the time, unless it's a 3 dps team opposing us.

I realize it's all preference, but someone said it to me best when they said I was still living in the days of Pre-TBC where crit was king, explaining how I should have made a Deep Thunder instead of my Mooncleaver, better control in arenas, etc. Too bad I'm lazy, so much for those words of wisdom.

but I know it annoys the heck out of me when warriors whirlwind, and I'm stunned because of mace stun.

and yes, Improved slam does own.

You could always switch to maces if you really wanted to. It only takes 100g to switch specializations and the primals are also not terribly difficult to farm. The only thing I can't comment on is the nethers, but only because I've never done a heroic in my life. :P

You could get it in around 5-6 Heroic Mech runs, so worse case a week for like an hours worth of work each time.

Your sword proc will have the same hit and crit chance as your normal attacks. This is a quote from the recent patch: "Extra attacks will appear in white and act like any auto-attack". I don't see how your extra attacks have only critted twice in a month. You shouldn't miss either unless you have less than 5% hit and/or the target has some spell/talent which gives minus hit.

Agreeing with the comment made for sword spec. Which would i rather? Critting 8 times during a long battle where each crit is slightly mitigated by resillience, or critting 7 times and getting a sword spec proc which ignores resiliience, has a chance to crit, and (a bloody low, but still tangible) chance to proc ANOTHER sword spec, which can then also crit. And regarding sword procs missing, in PvP your miss rate should be ~ 0 in normal situations, and in any case its no worse than any other attack. And if the attack is dodged or parried you still gain a chunk of rage anyway.

With so much resillience flying around these days that even an MS crit yields similar if not less damage than an extra attack, but with pummel and hamstring being able to proc Sword Specs ... well, you can guess what weapon I'm using

i think being a rogue will make your opinion bias first thing. 2H warriors have a much lower miss rate than rogues... another thing is if you ever get lucky enough to get 8 crits in a row with axe spec and you can't do it with any non-axe spec, then that extra 5% being put to work efficiently, huh? well, sword proc is also 5% if you haven't noticed yet. lets say this, all crits that came only from axe spec were extra attacks instead, since that's 5% as well, so it has the same chances of happening as the situation you provided. it's pretty much the same outcome.

and about sword spec missing, parried, etc... unless you have a crappy hit rating, your crit % should be higher than your miss rate + your opponent's parry/dodge rate. so you're gaining more dps from sword spec because if you cancel out crit with miss rate + your opponent's dodge/parry rate, you should still have excess crit left. top that off with the base damage of the extra attack not being affected with resilience and how extra attacks can crit but axe spec crits can't cause extra attacks, sword spec is the way to go.

i think you're thinking that going sword spec means you have no crit. i still manage 35% crit in arena with sword spec and i'm not that well geared. it's just switching 5% of your crit with 5% extra attack chance.

also, crit will have a diminishing return value after so much of it (other stats become more dps than crit is worth). and you can't replace an extra attack with gear like you can with crit.

there's almost no reason why i wouldn't want sword spec right now. the only bad situation with it is if the extra attack misses/dodges/parries. but you have a higher chance to crit with the extra attack than your opponent has to avoid it. is there something else i'm missing?

Don't you realize that 5% axecrit do ADD to your base crit chance, so you get not 30% crit you get a 35% to crit! 5% Extra Swing is a totaly new mechanic, the chance to get a extra swing is EXTREM low in comparsion to crit.

That said there is also the possibilty, as you described, to MISS a extra swing! Which makes your 5% extra swing even more undependable. I dont join a Arena Match @ 2000+ while praying for a double sword procc crit. It will not happen as often as i do crit my enemies to dust.

PLUS:
Getting 35% Crit with Sword Specc means loosing anywere else stats against axe specc. If you have the same gear with axe specc you just get 40% critrate.

How can people still believe that 5% crit > 5% chance to get an extra attack? I don't know how it is even possible for someone to think this anymore, especially with the loads of resilience on PvP gear. The fact that SS procs off hamstring and pummel as well just makes it all that much better.

That being said, neither sword spec or axe spec compare at all to mace spec. Seeing a warrior with deep thunder or stormherald makes me afraid... it is like dealing with a whole new class.

yes exactly. the only time i'd rather have a crit than extra attack is during a huge execute, which rarely happens in arena. for everything else, sword proc is just as good, if not, better.

sword spec can miss, but has a much higher chance of critting anyways. top that off with the extra attack's BASE DAMAGE NOT BEING AFFECT BY RESILIENCE (the -CRIT DMG part), it's definitely better than axe spec. sword spec also makes the chances of procing CoH effects more frequently (Mongoose, WF, sword spec, etc).

@ Samurro: i know axe spec adds to crit base, but it's only *5%*, just like sword spec. the chance that you crit BECAUSE OF AXE SPEC (meaning you don't crit that attack if you didn't have axe spec) is the same as getting an extra attack from sword spec. i have about 35% in arena on average with BoK(situational) and Mongoose while being sword spec. i know better geared characters have much more than that.

seriously, sometimes i think no one reads/understands what needs to be read/understood. when will the day come that everyone agrees sword spec is better than axe spec by fact?

@ mace spec: the stun does diminish in value the more people there are, but for 2v2, it's godly. for 5v5, i think it would depend on what your role is, what the group strategy is, and who you are stunning with it. mace spec is around 15% proc chance which is higher than the other two, so yeah, it does a beter job at it's function than the other two.

Wait what? Where is this information.

Relying on a proc in PvP is always a risky thing, be it an enchant on your weapon, a meta-gem or a weapons spec. The good thing about axes (my choice), is that you always know what you're getting, high crit and a good amount of attack power.

I've always thought that axe spec was more about hitting a reliable crit % than it was about getting a crit where you otherwise wouldn't have. With enough crit you can rely on critting quite often and axe plays into that philosophy whereas sword spec is just relying on a low proc chance.

While in the upper arena brackets everybody has high resilience, I made my choice to go for Axe spec. With the extra 5% crit I can keep my critrate pretty decent against a high resilience target.

Jesus. People really really don't understand, do they?

There are no concievable situations where Axe Spec is better than Sword Spec in Arenas, really, apart maybe from the aforementioned Execute situation. 5% crit is 100% worse than 5% chance of an extra attack, for burst, for sustained, hell, probably for rage generation too, since sword procs give rage.

If you want to stay axe, fine, but be aware it IS wholly inferior.

But then both are 100 miles behind mace spec, in all arena brackets, so I'm not sure sword vs. axe is even a worthwhile argument, even in the answer is completely clear cut.

I never ever met anyone who believe that sword/axe were better than mace spec in PvP other than warriors themselves. Mace is 1000 times more scary, a mace warrior with a t3 mace stuns almost as much as a rogue in your face.

I appear to be agreeing with someone from YOGS - what *is* the world coming to?

But of course you're 100% right. I can't get either of our Arena teams Warriors to spec Mace

One of them won't for 'RP' reasons (damn this server), and he's a Blacksmith/Axesmith so it'd only be a small change... the other thinks 'they look crap' and isn't a BS at all. Not having the stun proc on the BS weapons is obviously a medium sized loss to the power of mace spec also.