Colan

About 2 crit rating per 3 agility, easy way for me to remember it. On mongoose however, it's been the opposite for me. While many people will go either way, I've been seeing an increasing number of people using savagery over mongoose. Nearly every time I check an armory from a top arena team, the warrior has savagery.

And thanks a lot for the advice against frost mage/rogue teams, I'll test it out and say how it goes.

 

Gograh

Since this is the warrior pvp thread, I guess would be the right place to ask...
does anyone know what´s the hit cap for 2 hander in PVP?
I read it was 7%, some people told me 5% and some 4%... whats correct?

I have other questions but ill read this thread completely before asking.
thanks in advance!

 

gia

I believe it's 5% so 79 hit rating needed, I'm playing with 77 right now and I get the occasional miss. With 79 hit rating I've never noticed any.

 

◊ Kasi

Yeah I was wondering about that too, especially as I change my old ring and neck for pvp pieces that lack hit. I'm thinking that perhaps on the neck and bracers I'll have to socket +8 hit rating, as well as possibly my shoulders and definately any yellow sockets in my hat. Thanks for the info.

 

toader

I thought the chance to hit a player with a 2H was 95%, and that you couldn't get over 99%.

Is that right?

http://img158.imageshack.us/img158/4982/gognomenj4.jpg

 

Grailyn

No.

+5% vs even level target = 100% hit chance.

Don't believe any of this has changed in 2+ years.

There are talents that reduce hit chance so you might still see misses at 5% if your hitting someone with one of those.

 

◊ Shadowed

Isn't it (technically) more like 5.46% hit and not just an even 5%? Could swear they've gone over this in the theorycrafting forums before.

 

diotox

All I know is I had 80 hit rating for a very long time, and never saw a miss unless I was attacking someone like a frost mage with a talent for -%hit. I went from a s1 weapon to a s2 weapon which has 2 less hit rating, so now I'm at 78 hit rating, and I notice misses on occasion versus any player.

 

◊ Kasi

How would weapon rating effect that? All MS warriors should have 4 skill rating for all weapons, and if you are human and using a mace/sword or Orc and using an axe, that is an extra 10 bonus.

 

Gograh

Good question..
but what I heard around is that +4 weapon skill talent lowers your hit cap in something like 0.2%...

 

Asmik

What you are thinking of is in PvE, where mobs have higher defense (from being higher level). When your weapon skill is equal or greater than your enemies defense, it has a smaller impact.

 

Hoonboof

It makes your hit cap against another 70 with maxed out defense 4.68%

:goon2:

 

nfw

I had a discussion with my shaman teammate on who to focus on first when faced with a healer (except druid, I would always go after the druid because of cyclone) + dps combo. He thinks I should go after the healer, while I think I should go after the DPS, even if it's a warrior.

My arguments are:

1. paladin+warrior. Staying on the warrior gives him rage and enrage, true. But the alternative of going after the paladin who will inevitably bubble, turns it into a mana war between the shaman and the paladin. With me on the warrior, I can keep him perma hamstrung so relieve the pressure on the shaman and hopefully burst him down with bloodlust + windfury.

2. priest+rogue. Given equal gear, I should be able to kill a rogue faster than the priest can heal. And priests can be more difficult to kill than shamans in many ways.

3. healer+mage. We are too suspectible to CC to leave the mage alone. Frost mages are impossible for us, so it's a sure loss most of the time anyway.

4. healer+warlock. Similar to the above, we have to focus on the warlock so he can't life tap.

5. Healer+hunter. Killing the hunter removes him and his pet, we are asking for trouble if we left a hunter alone to dps from range.

So we tried both ways with varying degree of success, and we are still unsure what we is the most reliable tactic. Anyone with more arena experience care to chime in on this?

 

◊ Shadowed

You're mostly correct, but going for a Druid isn't always a good idea because you don't have BoF they can just kite you around and Intercept isn't going to do much for the 10 seconds that it's down after 5 seconds of being on them, although if you're using a T2/T3 BS Mace you maybe able to pull it off.

Cyclone isn't a big deal in a healer + dps team just be smart and stance dance as long as he isn't taking risks and letting you get to 40% before healing, not many people are going to burst you in 7-8 seconds, and worse case he can use bubble before Cyclone lands, or PvP trinket out of it.

 

Corronach

1. paladin+warrior.

Since you have a shaman (windfury + bloodlust) you can do more dmg then their warrior can, while keeping him hamstrung and intercepting him when he intercepts your shaman preventing him from beating on your healer. Basically you're shamans needs to take very little dmg forcing the warrior to attack you which is a losing proposition for their team.

So agreed, Warrior first.

2. priest+rogue.

Rogues can stunlock your shaman and a holy priest can be very tough to kill in 2v2 situations if he has enough resilience. If I were you I'd focus on stunning, hamstringing, (and if they're poorly geared) disarming the rogue because you will win that dps fight.

Agreed again, Rogue first.

3. healer+mage.
This one is a bit tougher since you're vague on their healer. But if its a fire/ap mage kill the mage first, and pummel any polymorph attempts on your shaman. This fight seems to depend more on who the healer is. If it's a resto druid, I'd go after the mage regardless of spec and let your shaman earth shock any attempts for cyclone. I don't know if purge effects divine shield or iceblock, if niether I'd be inclined to go after the paladin first.

4. healer+warlock.

If it is a soul-linked warlock I'd go after the healer, but if its a UA lock kill him first.

5. Healer+hunter.

I go after marksman hunter first, look for trueshot aura to indicate. If it's a BM spec, I go on the hunter to start, and when he does the beast within switch to the healer. Be aware when charging you'll probably eat a trap so have your shaman hang back a bit to start. Then when Beast within fades and you can hamstring him switch to him. Basically you'll be doing very little dmg while beast within is up if you're trying to attack him.

 

sulliwan

1) Going on the paladin with earthshock+pummel can force very early bubbles while your shaman should be in no danger of dying to their warrior at any point. Safer than going on their warrior.

2) Rogues don't really present a threat to either yourself or the shaman. Manaburn on the other hand will make you lose. A priest getting spampurged and shocked out of heals is not really that hard to kill at all.

3) Don't think there's anything else you can do against a good frostmage than just try to survive until he's oom and then try to keep him in combat.

4) Depends on the healer. If it's a priest, go for him first, if it's a druid, intercept when it's up do ms+ww and then go back on lock, if it's a pally just stick on the warlock and you should win the mana fight.

5) As long as you keep both hamstringed, it doesn't really matter which one you are attacking.

 

Corronach

True good points, in the first situation I'd still keep hamstring or piercing howl on the warrior to help the shaman out. I'm not sure on the rogue + priest, because I tend to do so much dmg to rogues that with the shaman line of sighting mana burn isn't much of an issue and their DPS is pathetic by attacking the rogue. And it is just worth mentioning that the reason for being aware of the hunter's spec is you can't hamstring the BM hunter for a bit and it becomes pretty futile to chase him during that time.

 

◊ Shadowed

sulliwan,

1) The Paladin isn't going to stand still, he'll be moving around and kiting along with snares on both of you being able to do damage is going to be rather hard and unrealiable, even worse if the Warrior has a T2/T3 Mace.

2) Priests can do a fairly good job of dealing with a Warrior, and you're assuming the Shaman is going to not be under pressure and having to heal himself from the Rogue, it's usually easier to deal with playing LoS. Although leaving a Priest alone in BEM can be fatal if they're smart.

4) For Druids thats not going to do much, you're just going to waste rage and give the Warlock time to get off a cast or two.

5) You wont keep both hamstringed, they should never be close enough that it's easy for you to do it and Hunters hurt when you leave them alone.

 

Dots

I just don't see you beat a good war/pal team. If you can convince the warrior to duke it out with you, that might work. But any decent team will go for the shaman and just kite you to death with Hamstring, BoF to get away and then run around a pillar. If you go for the warrior, your shaman will be facing a permanently enraged warrior with a full rage bar and a superior healer backing him up. Even though you may be doing decent damage with WF as well, it usually doesn't end in your favor. That is probably still your best bet to win this.

 

Corronach

BoF can be purged correct?

 

Malakitoo

You really can't go for the warrior as a war/sham vs. war/pal.

First of all, paladins have better mana efficiency than shamans just to start. Second, the paladin wont have to really spam heals to keep his warrior up most likely, so he's free to kill totems or stop healing for a bit and get ooc to drink. Their warrior will still probably do as much damage as yours due to the fact that his ww / cleaves / sweeping strikes will hit two people the whole time, plus he's being fed rage to do whatever he wants. Then you have to deal with eating pummels / hoj which keeps you from using your mana efficient heals and makes you spam lesser heals, which doesn't help the mana war in the least. Mana tide totem will be killed after a couple ticks if their war is paying attention, it's a losing battle.

On the other side of things, going for the paladin can work well. On nagrand, pillar kiting makes it a little rough, but if you can get quick dispels on bof, followed by a frost shock, it usually slows the paladin enough to allow your warrior to get an intercept in. If you can stay in shock range, the paladin will be hard pressed to get more than a few flashes of light off, and definitely no holy lights, meaning mediocre healing at best, until he pops his bubble. This is difficult in nagrand, but relatively easy in lordaeron, in my experience. Then, you're on a timer, so pop lust / deathwish and burn the pally before his forbearance is off. It isn't 100% perfect, and it allows the other team to show some skill by kiting, intercept/hamstring etc, but also allows you to determine your own fate to a certain extent through clutch shocks/purges/pummels/intercepts, whereas I feel going for the warrior is going to be a loss unless you significantly outgear the other team. Maybe I'm not as experienced in truly top end play (topped out just shy of 2.1k last season after hitting the spriest / lock wall, tell me how to beat that next), but half the teams we play just fight straight up anyway without trying to BoF kite, in which case preventing heals is relatively simple.


Mace stun can work both ways, I don't think it's fair to say that mace stun gives an advantage to the war / pal team by keeping the shaman out of range. The paladin is the one who's dependent on kiting for his strategy, mace stun at an important juncture can mess him up just as well.

If their warrior intercepts back to try to hamstring you to allow his paladin to escape, this would be the one case in which it makes sense to kill the warrior. Intercept him back and you can turn it into a warrior 1v1 with your shaman safely out of intercept range, free to mess up the paladin's heals with shocks / stomp and give you totems. He should be able to stack 3x healing way and healing wave his way to nice mana efficiency in this case, while rank 1 shocks on the pally will make his life difficult.


The thing that really kills this matchup for me is the paladin talent to resist blessing dispels. I can't tell you how frustrating it is to be low on mana, paladin 5%, he pops BoP, and it's "Your purge failed to dispel X's Blessing of Protection" 3 times in a row. Getting unlucky purge "failures" as the pally BoF kites your warrior can also cost you the match.

 

nfw

To be honest, I find enrage really isn't that big a deal now since a lot of warriors will just pop Deathwish right away, but then again this is around 1600 so maybe we are all noobs. The problem with attacking the paladin, for my team, is the shaman can't spare the time for interrupts with a warrior on him, he needs to spam heals on himself, and he cannot get away from the warrior when he's hamstrung.

If I ignore the warrior, what should I do when the paladin bubbles?

 

sulliwan

1) Freedom should be purged. Stuns have diminishing returns.

2) Sure, you won't twoshot the priest, I didn't say you would. However I find it much easier for a warrior to pummel a manaburn than for a shaman to try to los the manaburn while stunned. There is no way in hell a single rogue can put enough pressure on a well-geared restosham that he can't purge or shock from time to time. It's pretty much guaranteed that the priest will go oom before your shaman does if you're hitting the priest and the rogue is hitting your shaman.
If you go on the rogue however, you stand a very real chance of losing because the priest gets a few manaburns in and the rogue dodges just enough MS-s to make your shaman go oom before their priest does.

4) Yes it is. It takes a druid a nice chunk of mana and usually a few cooldowns to be able to get away from a warrior. If you have your trinket up, you have a very good chance of actually killing the druid as well.
Also the hots he has already running on his warlock will drop during the time he's dealing with the warrior, which will again cost a decent chunk of mana to put up or even more mana if the druid needs to throw out a clutch heal.

 

◊ Shadowed

Paladins have a talent that gives them something like 30% or 40% chance to resist Purge, relying on them to get it off when they'll also have somebody attacking them is a bad idea.

Heals have twice the range Earth Shock does, since all the damage is focused on the Priest they don't really have to worry about the Rogue and you'll likely never get a shock off, or be able to rely on purge.

A Rogue can drop pretty quickly when you have Bloodlust/WF up and they can't get away, since they don't have freedom the Rogue is going to have a hard time locking the Shaman down and would give him to play LoS, if the Priest decided to move up to try and mana burn still then he opens himself up to shocks.

No such thing as unlimited Rage, wasting 65 rage every 15 seconds is horribly inefficent and you're going to give the Warlock 3-5 seconds of free casting time if you wait for Rage probably more like 5-8 seconds, and the extra 1,500-3,000 damage you put out on the Druid is 1,500-3,000 less damage on the Warlock along with the extra casts he got off.

Remember you said

He doesn't have to escape if thats all you're doing.

 

sulliwan

Well, what I meant by what I said was that you stay on the druid until he actually manages to get away from you. Sure, the warlock gets a few casts off, but you have a very real chance of killing the druid every 20 seconds or at least making him waste a load of mana to get away from you if that fails.