Odd question but I wonder is sunder worth using rage on to enhance your damage on the target? Or should I just be trying to gib them as fast as possible with MS, WW and keep the hamstrings on?
If you have enough rage to get 5 stacks of sunder quickly, you can do enough damage without it that it doesn't matter if you have a Mutilate Rogue then getting them to EA is worth it thought because they can spare the CP and it doesn't impact the damage do that much.
Odd question but I wonder is sunder worth using rage on to enhance your damage on the target? Or should I just be trying to gib them as fast as possible with MS, WW and keep the hamstrings on?
Sunder's only worth it against high armor targets, such as Prot warriors. I also use it against feral druids, but I've heard arguments that strait up dps is better.
Odd question but I wonder is sunder worth using rage on to enhance your damage on the target? Or should I just be trying to gib them as fast as possible with MS, WW and keep the hamstrings on?
I would argue, no.
The max sunder you can apply is what, 3000-odd armour worth? That's removing about 15% damage reduction (I'm not sat in front of WoW so I don't know the exact numbers) Over the typical 1v1 pvp engagement, that is about the equivalent of an extra autoattack in damage, but costing much more rage.
If you stack 5 sunders you get a total of 2,600 armour reduction.
Assuming you're not prot spec yourself, you've spent 75 rage to do it, assuming they all hit even!). It's also 7.5 secs of GCD.
Against a heavily armored target, that is pretty pointless. I mean, a prot warrior might be in 18k armour, so you're reducing him to 15.4k armour? You'll not see a huge difference in the damage you're doing to him.
Armour reduction is more effective against a low armour target, such as a cloth wearer. Reducing them from 2,600 armour to zero armour will cause a visible increase in your dps, HOWEVER in the time it's taken you to inflict those 5 sunders, you could have just killed them instead because, as we just said, they're quite squishy to start with.
Armour reduction is more effective against a low armour target, such as a cloth wearer. Reducing them from 2,600 armour to zero armour will cause a visible increase in your dps, HOWEVER in the time it's taken you to inflict those 5 sunders, you could have just killed them instead because, as we just said, they're quite squishy to start with.
That's a really good point, Amethyst. The rage required to stack sunders isn't a huge problem compared to the time it takes to do so, at least in my opinion. While 75 rage can be generated in between MS/WW cooldowns with relative ease (especially if you crit once or twice), those 7.5 seconds of GCD time are absolutely precious. Sunder really isn't worth it, if only because it wastes far too much time to be really effective.
Sunder's only worth it against high armor targets, such as Prot warriors. I also use it against feral druids, but I've heard arguments that strait up dps is better.
Well amethyst is right on this point. Sunder's worth it a lot more against a low armor player.
Here's some math :
From wowwiki the formula for Armor reduction for a lvl 70 mob/player is :
%Reduction = (Armor / (Armor + 10557.5)) * 100
We have :
A = Armor of the player/mob
R = damage reduction % befor debuff application
A2 = A - armor reduction by the debuffs
R2 = damage reduction % after debuff application
DG = Damage gained after debuff (* 1.15 = 15% more damage)
From what you can see, the less A is important, the more you will gain from lowering it further.
20000/19000 will always be < than 12000/11000 for example.
I already though about debuffing a target in pvp, but it's true that 75 rage is a lot. But is it really that expensive ?
In the 2000+ rating, you will rarely 2 shot a cloth wearer because of the high res/armor/health they have. It's still possible to kill someone in the first seconds of figth in 5v5 though, but i doubt it is in 3v3/2v2.
It happens quite often that you have to dps a mage/warlock/priest for more than 1 mn before you have a window to finish him with a sudden /assist /burst
So if the target doesn't have any mean to clear this debuff (not a ice block mage), and it looks like you will dps it for a long time, i suggest putting 1 or 2 sunder (up to 4 with the warlock/priest s2 arena set getting so much armor) on the cloth wearer (if you target it), because it can help you a lot if you want to burst it, instead of hopping to have 2 ridicules crits by MSing it twice for 60rage which will absolutely not put him in danger (hello 1500 MS max @ ~20% crit with deathwish on a 470res 13k hp warlock).
Sunder does proc WF and sword-spec (but i don't know for mace stun), so i think it's not a so bad idea to use this skill.
IMHO, the best way to put some, is between MS/WW, or when the target's full life, and it seems you'll not be able to kill it and you're waiting for an assist.
Putting 5 straigh sunder on a cloth wearer is clearly not a good thing to do, because :
- even with the full s2 set, 4 sunder are already as effective, and the target's theorically chain purge/dispell to prevent the presence of any magic armor.
- you will use 5 gcd in a row. I recommend to put 1 or 2 from the beginning, and adding some every 10/20s or so, to keep the debuff up.
Well why I'd asked about is is that I am the sole DPS on a 3 person team when with my warrior. (with a priest/pally) and often at times I just can't burst them down that fast. It ends up being a long drawn out mana war, where I'm wailing on him for a long time through being CC'd and reaquiring the target. Now part of that is due to not having the best MS weapon (felsteel reaper, I finally decided to take the plunge and level macesmithing to get a Deep Thunder), but yeah its frustrating after beating on a guy for so long that we eventually lose because I can't kill my target before they kill my priest. I think I'll go with Vaelrock's strategy and focus on getting 1-2 sunders up quick and then refreshing later.
On the topic of choosing targets to go after in 3v3 as the sole dps, who should I go for? I'll list my thoughts below, but I'm curious what others think.
1) Pets, especially warlock pets (I find they're easily killable and they give me victory rush to help my burst on my first player target) Definately kill scorpions too since they can be nasty.
2) Warlocks or non Resto Shamans
3) Priests
4) Paladins (although this can backfire if my priest can't get off her mass dispel when they bubble, thing is often even with plate armor I find Pallies to be squishy.
Not had much luck with hunters between the constant traps, wingclips, and mail armor/high dodge. Rogues I can tend to squish pretty well but I usually focus on others. Druids and mages (especially frost) are almost pointless to try on since they can just run from me better than I can get at them.
The other day lost a fight against 2 druids and a warrior. I decided to work on the resto druid but it just wasn't working, between roots/cyclones and some bad play from me with not getting my pummels out well I was never able to burst the druid down.
Very good points. But remember that in 2v2, where there isn't a whole lot of burst dps since you'll be more than likely the only dps, sunder suddenly becomes much more effective. Especially against healers. A healer is more than likely just going to heal through most of the damage that comes from that 75 rage. Sure it wastes their mana, but sunder will increase your burst damage and allow you to take them down much quicker.
Against a holy priest, who will have armor somewhere around 2500, stacking sunder 5 times will increase your damage by about 26%.
Against a resto druid, with armor around 3200, your dps will increase by around 23%.
I'm not saying that sunder is worth it, but in 2v2 & 3v3 where you don't have much burst dps it's probably worth looking into
In the 2000+ rating, you will rarely 2 shot a cloth wearer because of the high res/armor/health they have. It's still possible to kill someone in the first seconds of figth in 5v5 though, but i doubt it is in 3v3/2v2.
No it's not, if you kill someone within 3-4 seconds you're not playing a real team because nobody on their team is playing attention or they're horribly geared.
Odd question but I wonder is sunder worth using rage on to enhance your damage on the target? Or should I just be trying to gib them as fast as possible with MS, WW and keep the hamstrings on?
It depends.
It would definitely not make sense to sunder mage. For example. Fire mages are too easy to kill and also need to be dead quick. Frost mages have too many way to remove your sunder.
However in situations where it's not the sustained dps but how big a burst you and your team can provide, sunders are much more useful.
For example your team has a warrior, a hunter and a rogue. It would makes a lot more sense to put 3+ sunders on their warlock (who has 450 resil) just to kill it.
Another situation is 2v2 where you have to kill their paladin. Of course he'll be dead when he's out of mana. But that's probably not the case here. So we're looking to kill a paladin (or high armor, high resil high healing/hotting ability target) BEFORE they run out of mana.
On the paladin: Your white crit when he's at 100% drops him down to 90%. With that rage you could put up a MS to get him down to 75-80%. Now, what's the chance that he can't heal up to full after the 5th second from there (assuming you pummelled him successfully)? Equally gear that's basically 0%. It happens too often. What that means is the rage you get in the beginning would be a much better investment to put up a few sunders. These sunders will get you to the sweet spot (where you could do a stun/spell lock sequence and finish your target off) more often.
I normally do 3 sunders when paladin has bubble/bop up and full 5 + deathwish and other dps CDs when he doesn't.
Hey I'm new to the forum I've been reading it for the past few weeks but I figured I'd make an account and have a chat with fellow gamers here.
I've done a few bits and pieces of arena, mainly BG pvp to get my non-set epics and I dont think sunder is really worth using in BGs but I think i'll give it a shot if I come up against a pally.
Just a question for warriors, how do you guys go about using spell reflection in fights? Do you use a macro which will equip 1h/shield > battle stance > spell reflection or is there another way of doing it mor efficiently? I'm a nooby pvp warrior so I'm still learning things.
Just a question for warriors, how do you guys go about using spell reflection in fights? Do you use a macro which will equip 1h/shield > battle stance > spell reflection or is there another way of doing it mor efficiently? I'm a nooby pvp warrior so I'm still learning things.
I got a macro that equips 1h+shield, puts me in def stance and casts spell reflect in two clicks - assuming I'm not in defensive stance already - binded to my F key, and I tend to use it a lot. To be able to put yourself in defensive stance with a shield fast is pretty much a must in the arena. Warriors are becoming more and more popular targets in 5v5 with the 4 dps-setups increasing in numbers. If they are able to get you down, their solo healers will have a much easier time - and your team will lose your healing debuffer (if you do not play with an additional warrior or a rogue shiving up wound poison, that is).
I consider my macro to be efficient enough and it has truly been a life-saver many many times, especially if I'm speced 3/3 tactical mastery and am able to choose what to reflect. Sometimes you get lucky and reflect more than one spell too (the mind blast+SW:D combo is an example of this).
My advice to you is that you get your own spell reflection macro and try it out a bit in durotar vs. casters so you get used to it. It can save your life if you're fast enough.
Just a question for warriors, how do you guys go about using spell reflection in fights? Do you use a macro which will equip 1h/shield > battle stance > spell reflection or is there another way of doing it mor efficiently? I'm a nooby pvp warrior so I'm still learning things.
I have two keybinds for swapping between sword 'n board and my big evil mace. So I switch my stance via mousewheel and at the same moment swap my gear. I don't like macroing my weapon switch into my stance switch since I sometimes try to disarm or intervene without swapping my gear. Of course having a macro that allows you to swap gear while assuming the correct stance and activating SR is also an option but I run out of keybinding options nowadays
This may be better suited for the UI section, but I'll be using it pretty much strictly for PvP purposes so here it is anyways. Does anyone know of a mod that makes it easy to track mortal strike on friendly targets? Just a simple bar timer countdown that can be dragged anywhere on the screen or attached to the unit frame.
After 2 weeks ago of doing pretty well with my warrior on our 3v3 team (priest, prot pally /w holy gear though) I'm finding he's not doing as well the last 2 weeks. Part of it might be the matchups we faced, but I find myself wondering what to do against heavy CC/DPS teams when playing my warrior. In comparison to my shaman he just can't put out as much damage. Of course he does have MS and can shut down a class more, but I'm finding 3v3 now to be some weird meta game where my two healers try to stay alive as long as possible while I go beat on someone. If I take someone down before they die, we win. If I don't (and often I've not, since my warrior isn't exactly an offensive powerhouse) we lose.
probably dumb for pvp, but i have 2 high dps 1h maces and a crappy 2h as I wait for enough arena points for my 2h mace. I was thinking about mace spec and rockin the 2 1handers while i wait...
What would happen if you duel wielded 1h maces? Would dual wielding increase the PPM? is there any info or data in regards to dual wield mace procs?
I don't know if the proc is purely governed by PPM mechanics and I've haven't used mace spec yet.
Formerly, the PPM was 1 ppm per rank. This meant rank 5 was 5 procs per minute. A 3.8 speed weapon only attack 15.8 times a minute for a proc percent of 31.7%. When adding in specials at base cooldowns, you could get up to 10 ppm (using ww/ms only to proc). Any other spam would net you a large amount of ppm as it increases the ratio of actual attacks to auto attacks per minute.
If the spec is still PPM based, but lowered to the neighborhood of 1.7 ppm at rank 5 (per the blue post for 11% proc chance at 3.8 speed), you would still have more procs per minute using the 2 hander as opposed to main hand procs. Also, you would avoid the nasty DW miss-rate. Now, spamming only ww/ms at 11% proc (1.7 ppm) gets you 3.5 ppm with a 2 hander. DW mace spamming only the same (ww/ms) gets 4.8 procs (less main hand procs but benefit of offhand procs). So, you gain some stunning but you sacrifice a lot of burst potential. Without burst, it would be tougher to down someone fast.
I'm curious if some warriors drop weapon mastery for improved hamstring. I can't remember the last time anyone tried to disarm me, and I never disarm other warriors because they are always immune.
So on a respec going from axes to maces I decided to give it a try. Now one night of PvP isn't going to tell me if I'll never get disarmed, but I wasn't last night. And improved hamstring was nice on several occasions.
The only issue I can see is fighting rogues with riposte that use it for the extra damage. But due to the fact that every warriors seems to be immune to disarm I doubt I'll ever get disarmed by another warrior.
Well, I tend to PvP on a casual note but Weapon Mastery also gives a little bit of hit and crit. Plus, regular hamstring and Piercing Howl (and even imp Thunderclap) seem to do the job.
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Problem with that is all it takes is one person to notice you don't have it (on armory) and take advantage of it. Of course just get one of those new BoE gloves and put them on when you log out and you might be okay.
I had a rogue disarm me twice in a match by riposting off a ww parry (I wasn't on him, but he was on me). This was while banging out 10 quick games for minimal points using raid specs (which I'm dw fury and just using the 2 hander for PVP). The only nice thing about it is neither BT nor Victory Rush require a weapon. I know because I killed my target with a BT and then VRed the rogue. Imp hamstring I find nice when I am trying to keep a rogue/warrior off a healer. As for keeping me on someone, PH/hamstring + minor run speed usually is enough. I used to have it and it was nice when it procced off my mage intercept hamstring (charge -> blink -> intercept -> nova) so the mage is stuck in melee range. I'd get imp hamstring if I didn't want to spec far enough into fury to get imp intercept.
Not sure if this is the right place to post this, but I'm having problems with my arena team when facing druid/xx/xx teams where the druid is capable of giving me big problems killing him or simply making it very hard for me to do deal damage to the opposite team.
My team consists of Holy Priest/Holy Paladin/Warrior where we play an outlasting game with heavy dispelling.
The only thing that seemed to change the immobilizing effects a bit was the surefoot enchant and change of meta gem in head item inorder to gain 10% resistance to roots/snares - well worth it but druids still give me problems with the cyclone spammage.
Should we run an offensive dispelling game against the druid inorder to put pressure on him? Judgement of something - worth it or? What should the holy priest be doing other than kiting melee dps and keeping himself/paladin alive?
Thanks for any help, cause atm they really seem to be the bane of our team, beyond the well played mages who spam sheep on our paladin(which might be resorted next patch, when the cc control is changed).
07/18/07, 4:26 PM
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