◊ Penguin

From quest rewards and handing in all the marks/armaments gained through normal questing/instancing, I was about 7k/21k revered. It took about 4 hours of farming Death's Door as MS spec to get the needed marks to move to exalted. I have heard many more complaints from the Scryers in my guild about rep than the Aldor.

 

Dashivax

From my personal experience on a 2v2 team with a Paladin and on a 5v5 team that runs 2 Deep Thunder Warriors/2x Pally/SL Lock I would have to say that Deep Thunder is more useful in 2v2 arena than 5v5.

The reason I feel that way is because in 2v2 you will almost always be in 1 of 2 situations, either fighting a team with 2 casters or fighting a team with a healer (where you are attacking the healer first) In those 2 situations, a stun proc is more desirable because you are not only interrupting casts but getting extra DPS time on your target. Also, against a 2 caster team I typically wear my gear with the most survivability (sta/resil) because I will more often be targeted first. Against a team with a healer (I'll use War/Pally as an example) I can switch into full on DPS gear and in that situation mace stun makes for some incredible Stun Proc/Pummel/Intercept/Pummel combinations that can finish off healers before they run out of mana.

On a 5v5 team however, stun proc has, in my opinion, proven to be less useful in favor of the highest possible DPS which you would get from Axes, because I will be the first DPSed target less often and stunning my current target is less important than causing as much damage as possible.

The 20% damage of Impale only affects the bonus damage portion of a crit, meaning 20% of 100%, or 210% damage on a crit.

 

Emeraude

I don't really understand the flaw behind that, you get your attack sooner then later.

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For the lurking Phoenix Wright faithful.

 

• diospadre

Axe
1 Attack
3 MS Crit
4 Attack

Sword
1 Attack
3 MS Hit
3 Sword Spec. Attack
6 Attack

 

Ren

20% of 100% is 20%, not 10%. =) 220% crits.

It's not a flaw if Sword spec only procs off of white swings... which I'm actually not sure about. Never got a clear answer on that.

If Sword spec procs off of yellow swings as well, resetting your swing timer essentially means that your free attack is roughly only half of a free attack.

 

raal

There are no diminishing returns on uncontrolled stun procs. That includes mace specialization for both warriors and rogues, and procs from items.

 

• alcaras

Primary specs out there are:
31/30 (MS/Flurry)
33/28 (SW + 3/5 Flurry)
35/23/3 or variant 33/25/3 (Blood Frenzy v. Imp Execute)

I personally went Mace Spec and haven't looked back at all... reasons I prefer mace spec in 5v5:
- anti-BoF kiting mechanism (this is pretty big actually)
- free interrupt
- an extra stun -- invaluable at catching Druids in human form, for example
- 4s Deep Thunder stun is absolutely devastating when it procs
- free stuns to secondary targets via WW

As for DR timers, mace spec (along with all uncontrolled stuns) is on its own DR timer.

http://subcreation.net/

 

DrunkenDruid

Updated equations correcting the error I made in melee crit damage.

Assume Weapon damage of D
(Critical Damage calculated at 2.2D (crit damage with 20% bonus to the 100% crit bonus from impale) + 0.6D (Deep Wounds)) = 2.8D

At 20% crit rate w/o spec
None-spec'd average damage is: 0.8D + 0.2D*[2.8D]
 

Contents

1 0.8D + 0.56D 2 0.75D + 0.75D 3 0.75D + 0.75D 4 0.7D + 0.84D 5 0.7D + 0.84D 6 0.65D + 0.98D 7 0.8D + 0.504D 8 0.75D + 0.63D 9 0.75D + 0.63D 10 0.7D + 0.756D 11 0.85D + 0.336D 12 0.8D + 0.448D 13 0.8D + 0.448D

[top] 0.8D + 0.56D

1.36D
Axe spec: 0.75D + 0.25*[2.8D]

[top] 0.75D + 0.75D

1.45D
Sword spec: 0.8D + 0.2*[2.8D] + 0.05*[0.8D + 0.2D*[2.8D]] = 1.36D + 0.068D = 1.428D

At 25% crit rate w/o spec
None-spec'd average damage is: 0.75D + 0.25*[2.8D]

[top] 0.75D + 0.75D

1.45D
Axe spec: 0.7D + 0.3*[2.8D]

[top] 0.7D + 0.84D

1.54D
Sword spec: 0.75D + 2.5D*[2.8D] + 0.05*[0.75D + 2.5D*[2.8D]] = 1.45D + 0.0725D = 1.5225D

At 30% crit rate w/o spec
None-spec'd average damage is: 0.7D + 0.3*[2.8D]

[top] 0.7D + 0.84D

1.54D
Axe spec: 0.65D + 0.35*[2.8D]

[top] 0.65D + 0.98D

1.63D
Sword spec: 0.7D + 0.3*[2.8D] + 0.05*[0.7D + 0.3*[2.8D]] = 1.54D + 0.077D = 1.617D

Now lets's take 25% and 30% crit rates and see what happens when we add 195 and 390 resilience into the equation.

25% Crit rate vs 195 resilience target
None-spec'd average damage is: 0.8D + 0.2D*[0.9*(2.8D)]

[top] 0.8D + 0.504D

1.304D
Axe spec: 0.75D + 0.25*[0.9*(2.8D)]

[top] 0.75D + 0.63D

1.38D
Sword spec: 0.8D + 0.2D*[0.9*(2.8D)] + 0.05*[0.8D + 0.2D*[0.9*(2.8D)]] = 1.304D + 0.0652D = 1.3692D

30% Crit rate vs 195 resilience target
None-spec'd average damage is: 0.75D + 0.25*[0.9*(2.8D)]

[top] 0.75D + 0.63D

1.38D
Axe spec: 0.7D + 0.3*[0.9*(2.8D)]

[top] 0.7D + 0.756D

1.456D
Sword spec: 0.75D + 0.25*[0.9*(2.8D)] + 0.05*[0.75D + 0.25*[0.9*(2.8D)]] = 1.38D + 0.069D = 1.449D

25% Crit rate vs 390 resilience target
None-spec'd average damage is: 0.85D + 0.15D*[0.8*(2.8D)]

[top] 0.85D + 0.336D

1.186D
Axe spec: 0.8D + 0.2D*[0.8*(2.8D)]

[top] 0.8D + 0.448D

1.248D
Sword spec: 0.85D + 0.15D*[0.8*(2.8D)] + 0.05*[0.85D + 0.15D*[0.8*(2.8D)]] = 1.186D + 0.0593 = 1.2453D

30% Crit rate vs 390 resilience target
None-spec'd average damage is: 0.8D + 0.2D*[0.8*(2.8D)]

[top] 0.8D + 0.448D

1.248D
Axe spec: 0.75D + 0.25D*0.8*(2.8D)] = 0.75D + 0.56D = 1.31D
Sword spec: 0.8D + 0.2D*[0.8*(2.8D)] + 0.05*[0.8D + 0.2D*[0.8*(2.8D)]] = 1.248D + 0.0624D = 1.3104D

 

• alcaras

In terms of burst potential, sword spec is superior to axe spec with better gear, see:
Deep Thunder v. Mooncleaver v. Lionheart Champion

I wrote a small simulation there and came to the same conclusions your equations do (although I didn't factor in resilience's crit reduction explicitly).

http://subcreation.net/

 

Ren

Sword Spec is 5%, not 6%.

 

sulliwan

Incorrect, they do have diminishing returns but separate from controlled stuns.

 

DrunkenDruid

Why the hell was I thinking it was 6%... Second equation post is updated with 5%.

 

◊ Lord BEEF

Sword spec used to display 6% on the talent sheet, so that's probably why you thought that. I don't know if it actually was 6%, or if it just displayed 6% and was actually 5%, but regardless it's definitely 5% now.

Check out my friend's bitchin' Lord of the Rings Art

 

DrunkenDruid

Ok good, so I'm not going mad...


Well... not as fast as I thought anyhow.

 

Grailyn

But going from 200% to 220% is only a 10% overall increase in the damage done on that attack.

a 1000 crit without impale would be an 1100 crit with it.

http://armory.worldofwarcraft.com/ch...ther&n=Grailyn

 

Monsanto

Because people consider it an "extra" attack, when in reality it's only a fraction of an "extra" attack.

I know there's some controversy on whether or not the claim that sword procs reset the swing timer is even true.

Druid: http://armory.worldofwarcraft.com/ch...hol&n=Monzanto
Warrior: http://armory.worldofwarcraft.com/ch...n=Thundershaft
Warlock: http://armory.worldofwarcraft.com/ch...gos&n=Valdamar

 

Ren

I never disagreed with your point.

 

Turpin

Some other differences to consider:
sword spec will proc off hamstring - may or may not be a significant difference depending on playstyle. you could assume x hamstrings per min and then just factor x/20 extra swings into sword spec calcs.

Axe spec benefits from more rage in two ways- sword spec resets swing timer removing on average 1/2 a swing's rage every proc. And axe spec increases auto attack crit by 5% giving 5% more rage plus added rage from the extra impale damage.

Axe spec has a better flurry uptime due to the fact that double crits from sword spec and the attack it proced off dont affect flurry much. And flurry will proc off hamstring while a non crit hamstring procing a non crit sword spec doesn not proc flurry.

Personally id say the best way of evaluating is to do some numbers and then have a pro/con list along with them along with maybe some situational number calcs like how SS will crit along with the attack it proced off etc.

 

Dashivax

Why are we talking about maximum sustained DPS with Swords or Axes, this isn't PvE.

The simple fact is, the smithing sword has the lowest top end damage of the 3 weapons and does not beat the Axe on raw damage stat bonuses. The proc is powerful but you are trading consistency for additional burst.

Yes sword spec has a higher sustained DPS than Axe spec, but in PvP you want to (wherever possible) put the "luck" factor more in your favor. Axe spec does this, and with your gear choices you can increase your crit therefor increasing your burst capabilities. You cannot raise the "luck" factor of sword spec.

 

Barny

Yes it does reset the swing timer. Main hand swing timer if you are dual wielding swords and the offhand procs. The offhand proc causes your main hand to swing again.

The correct wording of Sword Spec should be "5% chance for your next auto attack to occur instantly".

BTW, I've seen it mentioned in the rogue forums that Sword Spec only procs on white damage now? Can anyone verify?

 

Plea

Given a proc from specials is pretty much linearly distributed in the interval between 2 attacks, sword spec seems more like a 3-4% damage increase, pulled up from 2.5% by white procs. However, it must have a higher burst potential; as 1.03*1.03>1.05; am I thinking too simple?

 

• alcaras

It does have a higher burst potential, because the extra proc (and original hit) can both crit.

http://subcreation.net/

 

Emeraude

http://img217.imageshack.us/my.php?i...7192345ay2.jpg

Procs off all attacks.

http://www.megaupload.com/?d=CX81UJZ8
For the lurking Phoenix Wright faithful.