Look, you don't play warrior shaman, I do. The entire strat vs. any druid team involves target swapping, and lots of it. Constant pressure is the name of the game, and unlike shitty warriors, I know how to apply it. Yes we have not faced Cherekee and Beasteh, no I am not talking about bad teams when I say shaman/warrior counters hunter/druid.
As for the rest of your comments, feel free to continue taking snippets of my posts out of context and blowing them out of proportion like I don't know how to play a fucking warrior. The simple fact is, that while you have displayed less than convincing arguments about druids never running OOM and hunters somehow draining competent shamans dry, shaman/warrior counters hunter/druid, just like shaman/lock counters hunter/druid.
You seem to have this strange idea that shaman/warrior has to tunnelvision somebody to win. If this is your opinion, maybe you have no idea how to play the composition and have only faced terrible shaman/warriors with little to no coordination or skill.
Though I can hide my cold gaze, and you can shake my hand and feel flesh gripping yours, and maybe you can even sense our lifestyles are probably comparable; I simply am not there.
Also, how is a warrior keeping a druid hamstrung the whole game? That makes almost no sense whatsoever and if the warrior goes for the druid it only makes the game even easier for the hunter/druid combination as the hunter is now free to operate however he chooses and the warrior will get minimal amount of face-time on the druid. Playing like this you've got an almost zero percent chance of winning.
Assuming both druid and warrior are excellent players, the only way a druid will get away is using an instant cast to stop the warrior (NS cyclone, instant roots or bash). I played with a resto shaman in season 2 up to 2255 rating before the grounding nerf and blind buff (I ended up pushing it higher with a druid afterwards for glad). Double dps is the only thing I feel the combo is weak against, especially spriest/lock and spriest/rogue.
My personal experience playing shaman/war vs hunter/druid at a high rating: if hunter is on shaman, and warrior is on the druid, and the hunter does not help the druid, a good warrior will kill the druid before the hunter drains the shaman's mana. Period. This was before the water shield buff, and before s3 weapons, which further tip the balance in favor of the shaman and warrior.
Shaman/Warrior is > Warrior/Druid also. The amount of pressure you can put on the druid is extremely high with windfury + taking turns pummeling/earth shocking anything with a cast time. As Angeron noted though, swapping targets will happen. It's all about keeping pressure up with a warrior - if you can't stop a druid drinking by hitting him due to stuns/snares/whatever, stop him by bursting his teammate and forcing heals so you can retarget him.
To each their own I guess. On gorgonnash/horde, which is a VERY good quality server in a good battlegroup the best shaman we have to offer is, The World of Warcraft Armory, and I have dominated his teams in 2v2 arena several times. This guy is an amazing player and never had a chance.
As far as the comments about "if your teammate doesn't help you". Well, duh? What is that kind of statement supposed to even mean? That's like thinking you accomplished something by beating a team that disconnects.
If shaman/warrior countered everything except the very best double-dps teams don't you think you'd see that comp higher in most brackets? The brackets are dominated by druid/hunter and druid/warrior and you say that your comp is a hard counter for them, well if that's true where are the rest of the teams and/or the rest of your pvp gear that you should be swimming in with such a successful combo? I just find it really hard to accept such hard "facts" about a class matchup from a warr who is far over hit capped and wearing s1 and bad pve gear.
//////////////////////////////////////
to rayijin:
How is the only way the druid is getting away with instant casts? Your hunter has scatter shot, silencing shot, freezing trap, the druid has roots and cyclone on a very short cast timer. Silencing shot the shaman, scatter->trap the warrior, and now your druid just got to beyond max distance. You can reset the fight like this 100 times a game. I seriously don't think the hunter/druid combos who reached 2400+ did that by accident and they certainly didn't get cockblocked by shaman/warrior teams on the grind up either.
Please do not consider hit rating in your "calculations" because i can switch items to achieve 5% and more.
I just bought the season 3 mace today and will give it a try. I'm gonna write my feedback here soon but I fear I will miss the higher "damage range" of the torch when trying to burst down enemies.
greetings Z and thanks for your input
PS: Sorry for asking these "noob questions" but i just hit 70 about 4months ago :/
To each their own I guess. On gorgonnash/horde, which is a VERY good quality server in a good battlegroup the best shaman we have to offer is, The World of Warcraft Armory, and I have dominated his teams in 2v2 arena several times. This guy is an amazing player and never had a chance.
As far as the comments about "if your teammate doesn't help you". Well, duh? What is that kind of statement supposed to even mean? That's like thinking you accomplished something by beating a team that disconnects.
If shaman/warrior countered everything except the very best double-dps teams don't you think you'd see that comp higher in most brackets? The brackets are dominated by druid/hunter and druid/warrior and you say that your comp is a hard counter for them, well if that's true where are the rest of the teams and/or the rest of your pvp gear that you should be swimming in with such a successful combo? I just find it really hard to accept such hard "facts" about a class matchup from a warr who is far over hit capped and wearing s1 and bad pve gear.
//////////////////////////////////////
to rayijin:
How is the only way the druid is getting away with instant casts? Your hunter has scatter shot, silencing shot, freezing trap, the druid has roots and cyclone on a very short cast timer. Silencing shot the shaman, scatter->trap the warrior, and now your druid just got to beyond max distance. You can reset the fight like this 100 times a game. I seriously don't think the hunter/druid combos who reached 2400+ did that by accident and they certainly didn't get cockblocked by shaman/warrior teams on the grind up either.
Clearly that shaman just isn't that amazing if you dominate his teams as druid/hunter. You do see resto/war in the top brackets of many battlegroups, but here's a check to your next post: THERE ARENT THAT MANY RESTO SHAMAN PLAYING TWOS. News flash: It's the hardest healer to play 2v2 with, arguably even more so than paladins due to zero defensive dispels. It's more complicated and requires more skill to be 'good' than any other healer as you are juggling totems, offensive abilities, and heals. This isn't fire and forget land with druid/warrior, you actually have to have skill.
On another note: I just transferred to your battlegroup, so after I faceroll your teams with my AMAZING resto shaman maybe we can continue this argument? Feel free to insult my gear after my 3s team just cruised our way to 2k in the first two hours of being on rampage, with my season 1 shoulders and TERRIBLE PVE GEAR. Let me know when to queue up and we'll teach you why resto shaman/warrior comps hunter/druid, with my terrible pve gear and s1 shoulders.
Though I can hide my cold gaze, and you can shake my hand and feel flesh gripping yours, and maybe you can even sense our lifestyles are probably comparable; I simply am not there.
The difference I guess between you and me here is I think I am clearly telling you how to counter your match-up. Where you are simply telling me that you're a bad ass and a force to be reckoned with. Look, I'm scared and I believe you when you say you got carried to 2k by a resto/ret paladin combination (don't even have to check armory), however if you want to have a discussion on a forum dedicated to arena strategy, it is best to actually discuss strategy and not just chest thump.
Clearly that shaman just isn't that amazing if you dominate his teams as druid/hunter.
Whilst I don't necessarily disagree with your assessment, this is horrible logic.
You seem to be saying:
a) War/Shaman beats druid/hunter
b) if any War/Shaman loses to Druid/hunter they must suck, because of A)
c) Because of B), when equally skilled, war/Shaman beats druid/hunter, hence prove a)
Maybe I should do my own.
'Clearly that holy priest/prot paladin team just isnt that amazing if they lose to shaman/warrior'
See, this must be true. Any case of a holy priest/prot paladin team losing must be because they suck, because we know holy priest/prot paladin is a strong combo.
On another note: I just transferred to your battlegroup, so after I faceroll your teams with my AMAZING resto shaman maybe we can continue this argument? Feel free to insult my gear after my 3s team just cruised our way to 2k in the first two hours of being on rampage, with my season 1 shoulders and TERRIBLE PVE GEAR. Let me know when to queue up and we'll teach you why resto shaman/warrior comps hunter/druid, with my terrible pve gear and s1 shoulders.
I've been debating over this for some time now. I have concluded the only appropriate response to be the following:
oh SNAP!
I look forward to followups with angry screenshots and maybe a YouTube video with that song about bodies hitting the floor.
I seriously don't think the hunter/druid combos who reached 2400+ did that by accident and they certainly didn't get cockblocked by shaman/warrior teams on the grind up either.
Of course not, because shaman/warrior is a weak combo overall due to it being countered by double dps, assuming equal skill, hence it does not reach high ratings easily.
PvP involves a large number of variables such as reaction time, planning, predicting your opponent's moves and countering them and changing your tactics to interrupt, counter or punish the patterns they use. Back to Warrior/Shaman versus hunter/druid, here's what I view as the win conditions:
1) If the match goes on long enough, the shaman will run out of mana, and the druid/hunter will win.
2) If the warrior/shaman can burst down a target (usually the druid), the warrior/shaman will win.
There are obviously a multitude of "combos" you can do on both sides to try to gain an upper hand or reset the fight. I suppose I shouldn't say that warrior/shaman is a counter to hunter/druid - but I do feel that the match can go either way, depending on who makes more mistakes, and there may be a slight edge afforded to the shaman/warrior team based on personal experience.
Originally Posted by Angeron
You do see resto/war in the top brackets of many battlegroups, but here's a check to your next post: THERE ARENT THAT MANY RESTO SHAMAN PLAYING TWOS. News flash: It's the hardest healer to play 2v2 with, arguably even more so than paladins due to zero defensive dispels. It's more complicated and requires more skill to be 'good' than any other healer as you are juggling totems, offensive abilities, and heals. This isn't fire and forget land with druid/warrior, you actually have to have skill.
1) If the match goes on long enough, the shaman will run out of mana, and the druid/hunter will win.
2) If the warrior/shaman can burst down a target (usually the druid), the warrior/shaman will win.
There are obviously a multitude of "combos" you can do on both sides to try to gain an upper hand or reset the fight. I suppose I shouldn't say that warrior/shaman is a counter to hunter/druid - but I do feel that the match can go either way, depending on who makes more mistakes, and there may be a slight edge afforded to the shaman/warrior team based on personal experience.
1. i agree
2. i agree
However, the shaman/warrior team only has a very very short window with which to make the kill. Their cooldowns timers are long and the durations of the abilities are short and in some cases completely negated (dispelled, totem killed). Where the hunter/druid's CC cooldowns are very short and their effectiveness against the team are almost flawless (only trinket, grounding totem, and poison cleanse totem). So given equally skilled opponents that is basically why I dont see how the sham/war can win without big mistakes being made by the druid/hunter that allow a burst to occur in the first place.
Sorry but if this is your opinion then you probably only faced bad hunter/druids with little to no coordination in how to play the matchup.
I just find it really hard to accept such hard "facts" about a class matchup from a warr who is far over hit capped and wearing s1 and bad pve gear.
Look, I'm scared and I believe you when you say you got carried to 2k by a resto/ret paladin combination (don't even have to check armory)
Stop making posts like this. You made personal attacks on him and he got rightly upset. He did list out ways in his earlier posts to play sham/war vs druid/hunter, and Rayijin agreed with him. Obviously you disagreed with him, but rather than debating you personally attacked him in every single response. Stop doing that. Take the personal attacks out of this thread.
Stop making posts like this. You made personal attacks on him and he got rightly upset. He did list out ways in his earlier posts to play sham/war vs druid/hunter, and Rayijin agreed with him. Obviously you disagreed with him, but rather than debating you personally attacked him in every single response. Stop doing that. Take the personal attacks out of this thread.
Eh, not really if you read the previous pages of this thread. Also, if you check around in other threads I'm not the only person on this forum who he's responded to in less then stellar fashion. In any regard, this is a topic to discuss warrior arena gearing and strategy and you are not adding much to the topic either.
Clearly that shaman just isn't that amazing if you dominate his teams as druid/hunter. You do see resto/war in the top brackets of many battlegroups, but here's a check to your next post: THERE ARENT THAT MANY RESTO SHAMAN PLAYING TWOS. News flash: It's the hardest healer to play 2v2 with, arguably even more so than paladins due to zero defensive dispels. It's more complicated and requires more skill to be 'good' than any other healer as you are juggling totems, offensive abilities, and heals. This isn't fire and forget land with druid/warrior, you actually have to have skill.
On another note: I just transferred to your battlegroup, so after I faceroll your teams with my AMAZING resto shaman maybe we can continue this argument? Feel free to insult my gear after my 3s team just cruised our way to 2k in the first two hours of being on rampage, with my season 1 shoulders and TERRIBLE PVE GEAR. Let me know when to queue up and we'll teach you why resto shaman/warrior comps hunter/druid, with my terrible pve gear and s1 shoulders.
First off you guys need to learn how to have discussions instead of arguments because this is stupid. One guy says "hunter/druid owns sham/war" other guys says opposite, both give reasons and both of you just say the other one is stupid. Anyways neither comp completely dominates the other. Shaman/war is very strong vs hunter/druid but that doesn't mean they will own them every time. And as it has been stated it can be rough leveling shaman/war up in 2v2 so most likely the amount of skilled teams you face at high ratings are few and far between.
Now the real reason I am quoting you. Pleaseeeee don't post this retarded statement about how badass you are that you could make it to 2k on some random BG with s1 shoulders and terrible pve gear... One piece of season 1 should have little to no effect upon your game, missing what 20 ap and 7 crit rating? I mean seriously don't say how amazing you are with shitty gear when you have one piece of old season gear the rest is s3 and BT gems in your other pieces. While at the same time your two partners have full s3 and also are filled with BT gems. I mean come on. This thread is to ask questions and learn about warrior pvp. Not to argue and claim who is the bigger badass cause they can hit 2k with worse gear.
Both hunter/druid and war/sham are good comps and both can beat each other. In my opinion with equal skill the war/sham has a slight advantage but both comps can be played well to defeat the other. Good luck on the new BG but please keep it the forums to relevant information and not your leet 3v3 skillzzzz!
Please do not consider hit rating in your "calculations" because i can switch items to achieve 5% and more.
I just bought the season 3 mace today and will give it a try. I'm gonna write my feedback here soon but I fear I will miss the higher "damage range" of the torch when trying to burst down enemies.
greetings Z and thanks for your input
PS: Sorry for asking these "noob questions" but i just hit 70 about 4months ago :/
Now on to actual questions. In my opinion I would go with the s3 mace still. First off it gives you a lot of resilience, second the hit rating is important because the less gear or gems you have to switch out for hit the better even if they are ownage pve pieces. You can always switch your weapon when focused but you cant switch out that pve belt and bracers with no res and lots of hit rating. You might notice the damage range but in the end the season 3 mace stats outweigh the small damage and haste rating difference in my opinion. It has more crit, armor ignore(which effectively increases your top end), hit, and res. Also some more stamina. Either one is good though and I am sure you can do fine with which ever you decide.
On a side note, damn you for being 70 4 months and having a torch =(
Now the real reason I am quoting you. Pleaseeeee don't post this retarded statement about how badass you are that you could make it to 2k on some random BG with s1 shoulders and terrible pve gear... One piece of season 1 should have little to no effect upon your game, missing what 20 ap and 7 crit rating? I mean seriously don't say how amazing you are with shitty gear when you have one piece of old season gear the rest is s3 and BT gems in your other pieces. While at the same time your two partners have full s3 and also are filled with BT gems. I mean come on. This thread is to ask questions and learn about warrior pvp. Not to argue and claim who is the bigger badass cause they can hit 2k with worse gear.
If you'd take the time to read the post he was quoting, you'd see he was being sarcastic in repose to Bula trying to devalue his argument by saying he had S1 shoulders and PVE gear.
Inform your dealers and whores of my credit, and pour me a goddamned drink!
I play Warrior / Shaman in 2v2 and have always found Druid / Hunter a good matchup. Very rarely do we go for the druid, the way its played for us in the past is to find a window of opportunity to kill the pet and stick to the hunter and keep him oom slowly wearing them down; don't know if this is optimal but since its always worked for us we've had no reason to change.
Despite some posts to the contrary I don't believe the long game is a bad thing for the shaman/warrior in this matchup, water shield is the big difference maker. We've always managed to burst the pet down decently early too, I don't know how it would play out if the pet never died because its not happened yet; with shocks and grounding on druid's cc it has never been a problem to find an opportunity. We often let them revive it if they have improved revive pet, but it takes up both of their time to cc me long enough to do so in which time shaman can drink. Its just always ended up at some point with the hunter oom and unable to do enough damage to either of us.
The fact is, Watershield is an absurd amount of mp5(383.3 MP/5? My shaman tells me an orb gets used every 3 seconds if the pet is on him) with a pet sitting on you, so you never run OOM. The warrior can apply constant pressure to the hunter throughout the match with little effort as long as the shaman eats freezing traps. This is pretty much the big kicker here, I went from 15 minute games vs. hunter/druid teams to 3 minute games when I started coordinating trap-eating with my shaman. Having the extra 10-20 seconds of facetime with the hunter every 15 seconds is enormous and just puts too much pressure on the druid to heal for him to go run off and drink. We win the mana war because even though the hunter is draining my shaman, he's not putting out any real damage on him, where as I can put out 4-6k damage at a minimum every time I get facetime with the hunter. And yeah, as I said earlier, I haven't fought Cherekee and Beasteh, or Megatf's team, maybe they're different, but they are also in a totally different league than me or you.
As for the skillpolice putting yourselves on red alert, as Maligne said: try reading my post first. Bula, you insult me personally and then tell everyone else to stay on topic? "SWEET IRONY IVE BEEN SHOT IN THE ASS BY A MONKEY!"
Zournyque: Draegus is right, the s3 mace offers advantages over the Torch: the ArP effectively increases your topend, there's way more crit, the hit will allow you to keep your other resilience pieces in place, and the extra resil/stam is pretty nice as well. It may come down to personal preference for you, as both weapons are excellent choices for any warrior in any bracket.
Loderunner: I prefer Frank Sinatra, will that do?
Though I can hide my cold gaze, and you can shake my hand and feel flesh gripping yours, and maybe you can even sense our lifestyles are probably comparable; I simply am not there.
Rampage does have some great PVP servers, Illidan\Cho'gall, I think the world top 5v5 was The hukuhukuhuk, whatever the name was, from our BG.
Resto Shaman\Warrior is an extremely powerful combo if you coordinate spell interupts. I believe my shaman partner and I were the highest ( or 2nd ) rated 2v2 combo in season 1 in our BG ( around 2115-2150 ), and near the top in season 2 until the change to blind.
That being said, it just simply is not as powerful as a druid combo. It is always an uphill fight, things ALWAYS have to be coordinated to the T. Other combos, just do their thing and if they start to get behind, they do whatever it is they do. While Heroism and Windfury was awesome, another change that didnt help this combo, if Heroism runs down and you haven't won or haven't forced the issue its over.
LOS is the name of the game and shamans in 2v2 can't LOS anything ( because of slow effects ) or get away period.
If you'd take the time to read the post he was quoting, you'd see he was being sarcastic in repose to Bula trying to devalue his argument by saying he had S1 shoulders and PVE gear.
Ah well I am sorry, I thought i read most of it but I was also working on a paper so not suprised i missed something. I apologize I didnt mean to sound like an ass or anything it just seemed like this started like a discussion about how to fight hunter/druid or play war/sham or whatever and then became Bula and such saying who was better etc etc etc. Anyways I guess I meant it to all involved that this discussion had gotten pointless. I did probably quote the wrong person though. Sorry again and hope you own on the new BG.
Not to contribute on the silly discussion, but I play 2v2 with a warrior on lower ratings, and when he's solo hitting a shaman, it's not possible to run him out of mana, much less kill him. WTB Water shield.
Not to contribute on the silly discussion, but I play 2v2 with a warrior on lower ratings, and when he's solo hitting a shaman, it's not possible to run him out of mana, much less kill him. WTB Water shield.
You should never be attacking the shaman until the warrior is dead as a dru/warr combo.
Simply keeping MS and hamstring on their warrior the entire fight will win the game for you. You don't even really need to try very hard assuming equal gear and skill levels of the 2 teams. I'd go into greater detail but this is the warrior thread not the druid thread so I'll keep it at that.
03/04/08, 12:56 PM
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