Warrior PvP Thread - Page 53

Flaccus · 03/21/08, 11:10 AM

I think this belongs in the 3v3 thread, since you're not really asking any warrior specific questions. Also 3 points in TM makes hunter trap completely trivial.

Could you, or anyone else, explain why this is? Am I right in assuming that Spell Reflection works on the ice trap? (The ice cube, not the snare).

I face a lot of problems when I play a Druid/Hunter as I'm CC'd a tremendous amount.

Angeron · 03/21/08, 1:50 PM

Originally Posted by nfw

His team was terrible compared to his battle group, but how do you know he, singular, is terrible? Without knowing the competition, team composition?

Terrible or not, he still has a valid point. The system is easily exploited, one doesn't have to be great at arena to be allowed to make that point.

He's complaining that he can't get 2k because of gladiator's rerolling and taking points from his team. The fact is, if he really was interested in getting 2k, he'd pick up a partner(or partners) that didn't suck, stop crying over gladiator rerolls, and play a fuckton of games at odd hours so he wouldn't face them.

His point is not valid because he introduces other factors (his partners are in greens, he refuses to 'play to win', etc.) that have a far bigger impact on his ratings than the 2-3 gladiator reroll teams he might meet over 60 games in the 1600 bracket.

TheCutlery: I don't care if you're good, bad, ugly, or Angelina Jolie, but the fact is that you ARE selling yourself short. So all of your whining about a broken system is totally mitigated by the fact that you have plentiful options that you are simply not taking advantage of. Nobody is going to take you seriously if you make a post about the rating system being broken because you lose 60 points to reroll teams WHEN YOUR DRUID IS WEARING GREENS. Maybe if he wasn't geared so poorly, or if you had a different partner, you could beat those gladiator teams. You say that it's impossible, but it's really not, there are absolutely TERRIBLE gladiators out there. Keyboard turning, s-keying clickers running at 480x640 on atari 5000s who got carried to their title in 5v5 or even bought them. The fact that they're rerolling a team shouldn't immediately cause you to think "well I better bend over now, they're GLADIATORS"! That's a stupid mentality, and what everyone here has been TRYING TO TELL YOU is that is your biggest problem.

Cry us a river on the WoW forums, save this thread for relevant shit, like what you can do to keep your greens-wearing druid alive so you can win those 60 points back in 4 games instead of 10.

Remember that gladiator's are human too, and plenty of people above 2k got there by queue dodging and win trading. You CAN beat them, it just takes the right mentality. If it turns out that you do indeed suck massive cock at arena pvp, then you come to terms with it, but this is not the place to spew ELO IS BROKEN bullshit when you're not doing all you can to improve your own play.

*Flaccus*: You can spellreflect Freezing Traps AND Nature's Grasp. It's a big deal.

nfw · 03/21/08, 2:00 PM

Originally Posted by Angeron

and play a fuckton of games at odd hours so he wouldn't face them.

So he should stop complaining, and game the system like everyone else?

◊ Nork · 03/21/08, 2:07 PM

Originally Posted by nfw

How do you know he's terrible? Have you played against him?

Warrior PvP Thread - Highlights include the claim that it's impossible to get above a 2000 rating if you aren't there already, and the claim that because he's over 30 years old, he can't compete with 20-somethings.

Warrior PvP Thread - Highlights include the claim that he shouldn't play more than 10 games per week if he wants to improve his rating. The truth is, if you want to get better, you have to play games.

Warrior PvP Thread - "As it stands, I don't really care what you say." If he doesn't care what people say, why bother posting?

So the upshot of those links is this: He's not trying. He's saying that he's too old, or the players with Gladiator ranks are conspiring against him, or the matchups are unfair, or whatever works at the time. At the same time, he's saying that he only plays 10 games per week because he has nothing to gain from it. The truth is that the most important gain (experience), can only be obtained by actually playing matches. Not once in his posts does he entertain the possibility of getting better through strategy or experience - he talks mostly about why the world is so unfair that he has no reason to try.

The difference between good players and bad players is that the good players try until they win, and the bad players try until they fail. You're right in saying that I don't know he's a bad player, but he's given up, so I feel confident in making an educated guess.

Flaccus · 03/21/08, 2:11 PM

Thanks Ang, I knew about Nature's Grasp but definitely not about Freezing Trap!

But I must say, I do agree with some of TheCutlery's posts in that the rating system is flawed to a sometimes significant degree. His point about meeting (paraphrasing here) S3 duos in the 1500s and losing 20 points is a problem. I have experienced team sellers, and, while not the biggest contributing factor to my Warrior's rating loss, it IS a factor that arguably shouldn't happen with the frequency that it occurs, currently.

To give an example, my resto Shaman partner and I (a Warrior) ran into Muqq (S.Priest) and a (Nihilum) Warlock. Full Season 3, bla bla ba. We definitely got steamrolled in a matter of seconds: (I was nearly dead before the first salvo of iHoT, Deathcoil, Psychic Scream). Although if our gear level was equal we would probably have lost, the matter of meeting such teams and then losing a signficant number of points (17+) shouldn't really happen at all.

However, I do agree that TheCutlery is not being 100% objective and is having a bit of a PvP cry!

nfw · 03/21/08, 2:35 PM

Originally Posted by Flaccus

Could you, or anyone else, explain why this is? Am I right in assuming that Spell Reflection works on the ice trap? (The ice cube, not the snare).

I face a lot of problems when I play a Druid/Hunter as I'm CC'd a tremendous amount.

The problem is hunters will scatter shot you into a trap, or druid cyclone, those and the lack of rage against that kind of team makes it difficult to pull of spell reflect.

• LodeRunner · 03/21/08, 3:10 PM

Back on track-
Is Blind a physical attack? I *think* I may have intervened a Blind yesterday.

I was playing 2s with my Shaman partner and we were facing a Warlock/Rogue combination. We'd faced them the fight before and lost due to them controlling my Shaman with Fear/Coil/Blind and killing me. I knew this was coming and didn't want to get too separated from my Shaman, so after he used his trinket to break a fear and we knew the inevitable was happening, I shelled up and ran to where he was, off in the corner of the map. I intervened and, even though I had many Warlock DoTs on me, I was the recipient of a blind. It's possible the Rogue just misclicked and blinded me by mistake, or I've found an interesting solution to the whole Fear/Coil/Blind/Sap CC chain. Anyway, we totally curb stomped them after that point.

• goss · 03/21/08, 3:11 PM

Yes, it is now (forget which patch it was changed in, but in the last 6 months). You can no longer blind through BoP, for instance.

Angeron · 03/21/08, 4:45 PM

Originally Posted by LodeRunner

Back on track-
Is Blind a physical attack? I *think* I may have intervened a Blind yesterday.

I was playing 2s with my Shaman partner and we were facing a Warlock/Rogue combination. We'd faced them the fight before and lost due to them controlling my Shaman with Fear/Coil/Blind and killing me. I knew this was coming and didn't want to get too separated from my Shaman, so after he used his trinket to break a fear and we knew the inevitable was happening, I shelled up and ran to where he was, off in the corner of the map. I intervened and, even though I had many Warlock DoTs on me, I was the recipient of a blind. It's possible the Rogue just misclicked and blinded me by mistake, or I've found an interesting solution to the whole Fear/Coil/Blind/Sap CC chain. Anyway, we totally curb stomped them after that point.

Yes, I've intervened *a* blind before, and I believe there is a video of a warrior intervening a blind on his druid in a 2v2 match that's just amazing. The intervene trick when you're about to get sheeped is another awesome one, you get sheeped before you move but it breaks instantly if there's any dps on your target and leaves you open to spellreflect the next one.

◊ Kaubel · 03/21/08, 8:23 PM

Originally Posted by Mearis

Plus, read his posts.

Or not. That way no one gets sucked into a pointless debate that shits up the thread.

Flaccus · 03/22/08, 7:28 PM

I got some gear questions that I'd appreciate if you chaps could answer for me.

Well I have recently regemmed my gear, and wondered what you fellas thought. As I don't have a S3 weapon I thought I was lacking hit, so I popped in 3x 8 hit gems in my Helm, Neck and Bracers. I'm at 86 hit rating -- you need 90 right?
Anyway, do you guys think the sacrifice of the 3x 4str/4 crit gems was worth it?

Secondly, assuming gold isn't an issue, is a Deep Thunder mace worthy of an Executioner enchant? Every little would help when egtting to 1850. My AP is 1720 with Savagery.

Angeron · 03/22/08, 8:09 PM

You need 79 hit rating to be hitcapped, and yes, the hitcap is more important than 24 ap and .55 crit. Executioner is definitely better than Savagery, so if gold isn't an issue, yes re-enchant with Exe.

zournyque · 03/24/08, 1:36 PM

If your "playstyle" includes the use of the "sunder armor" ability I would really recommend you to get an executioner enchant, otherwise I think it is not such a big difference.

As "Angeron" said you should have at least 79 hit hit rating but my personal experience is that when fighting against specific classes (for example mages with the "arctic winds" talent) having more than the 5% hit can be a huge advantage.

I already lost matches cause of "pummel misses" so I play arena with 97 hit rating at the moment and I am still trying to get items like [Stormrage Signet Ring] or [Dreadboots of the Legion] to increase my hit rating further.

Talaryn · 03/25/08, 12:28 PM

Originally Posted by zournyque

If your "playstyle" includes the use of the "sunder armor" ability I would really recommend you to get an executioner enchant, otherwise I think it is not such a big difference.

As "Angeron" said you should have at least 79 hit hit rating but my personal experience is that when fighting against specific classes (for example mages with the "arctic winds" talent) having more than the 5% hit can be a huge advantage.

I already lost matches cause of "pummel misses" so I play arena with 97 hit rating at the moment and I am still trying to get items like [Stormrage Signet Ring] or [Dreadboots of the Legion] to increase my hit rating further.

S4 will alleviate our hit problems, thankfully

. That being said, I run 90+ hit rating. Misses on anything, particularly MS or Pummel, really can lose a match.

@LodeRunner: How is your experience running RestoSham versus the big ones? Say, Warr/Druid, Druid/Lock or Double DPS (Lock/Rogue, Mage/Rogue, etc.)? I've run Druid since 1900 and never looked back, but (since you're in my BG), Thanor and Limewire evidently have tremendous success with it (we've only faced them twice, 1-1, and it was hell).

TheCutlery · 03/25/08, 3:59 PM

Originally Posted by Angeron

*Flaccus*: You can spellreflect Freezing Traps AND Nature's Grasp. It's a big deal.

The intervene trick when you're about to get sheeped is another awesome one, you get sheeped before you move but it breaks instantly if there's any dps on your target and leaves you open to spellreflect the next one.

So explain to me this, since I fucking suck and you all are PvP gods.

There is much, much talk of spell reflect and it's power. It is 1.5 seconds from your 2h to your sword/board, it is 1.5 sec back to 2h. Both reset your swing timer. It is then 3.5-3.8 seconds before you swing with a 2h. It's a 10 second cooldown on spell reflect. Do you REALLY spend half the fight not doing any damage? How do you apply any pressure at all in that case?

I'm asking this because I've seen this stuff happen, and there is (albeit small) a desire to improve my play (My PvP heyday was pre-TBC. I'm mostly PvP'd out, to be honest, and haven't really worked spell reflect into my skillset yet). The problem is that in practice, it seems, uhh, lacking. Example :

Double DPS team..whatever you want it to be. Mage/Rogue, Warlock/Random DPS, etc. I go defensive, spell reflect the first nuke and then in the time it takes for spell reflect to cooldown, I get burned to the ground. Part of this is obviously poor positioning, I see where I could improve there. But I just don't see how 1 spell reflected every 10 seconds vs double caster really does a whole lot to increase your chances, especially when you're providing about jack and crap in the way of pressure to the other team.

The way you guys talk, it sounds like you spend at least half the fight with sword/board out, and I just don't see how you're applying enough pressure to win doing that. What am I missing?

• goss · 03/25/08, 4:05 PM

You can still interrupt, hamstring, apply MS, fear, sunder, and pretty much everything else you could before with a 1H/shield. If you're being nuked, you want to minimize your time in berserker, but its still easy enough to intercept as necessary as well. Get a slow 1H with a big damage range, and you'll still be able to apply some pressure in terms of damage. Spell reflecting a polymorph, fear or a freezing trap also is pressure, you've just CC'd your opponent at the cost of his own cooldown or mana.

• LodeRunner · 03/25/08, 4:52 PM

Originally Posted by Talaryn

@LodeRunner: How is your experience running RestoSham versus the big ones? Say, Warr/Druid, Druid/Lock or Double DPS (Lock/Rogue, Mage/Rogue, etc.)? I've run Druid since 1900 and never looked back, but (since you're in my BG), Thanor and Limewire evidently have tremendous success with it (we've only faced them twice, 1-1, and it was hell).

I played the more 2v2 matches this week than I have in the last 3 months, I think. Quite honestly I totally ignored 2s and 3s in both Season 1 and Season 2. I still feel I have a good amount to learn. Also, half the 2s games I played this week were on my Rogue with my other 2s (interestingly fluctuates at the exact same rating as my Warrior's team). I think it was around 60 games apiece on both teams. The problem here is that one combo is strong against certain teams and my other team is weak against them and vice versa. I'm getting some of them jumbled together in my mind but as a general rule my Warrior's team fares better against melee/higher armor teams and my Rogue's team does better against casters. However, I'll just make observations to the best of my knowledge from my Warrior/Shaman perspective:

Warr/Druid- Currently lose this more than we win. I'd say about a 40% success rate. It's fun running into people here on the boards. I ran into Tigs and his Druid and went 1-1 versus them. The best Druids are the ones that stay outside Shock range and actively watch for Grounding Totems. Many times casters will cast a spell and, thinking it went off, go do something else. As Gurg put it, "It takes their brain a second or so to process that their spell did, in fact, get grounded, and that extra window allows me to shock again". Good druids, and casters in general, will be aware of the totem and just chain cast whatever it was they were doing. This matchup should be a lot more favorable to us now in 2.4

Rogue/Druid- Totally depends on the skill of the Druid. We had a few AWFUL matches in Lordaeron where the Druid was outranging everything and just chain CCing me. I think he innervated himself and ran out of range, so there was no purging either. Again, this matchup will also be more favorable to us in 2.4. It's fun also to see the stupid Rogues who blind me when I am on DR from Cyclone, only for it to last all of two seconds. I can save my trinket for the next blind a minute and a half later.

Lock/Druid- Curse of Tongues just plain hurts. I can take this team apart with Rogue/Disc Priest but I think either we didn't face too many or I'm mentally blocking out the pain.

Lock/Rogue- They heavily CC my Shaman and try to kill me. The only way for me to win is to play very defensively at the start, wearing down the Rogue. I played a matchup of this where I intervened my heavily CCed Shaman and took his Blind. That was pretty sweet. Mostly this is an uphill battle and I don't see it changing.

Rogue/Rogue- Utter joke. Poor Rogues crumple very fast.

Hunter/Healer- A long, drawn out mana war. If my Shaman can outlast the poison/sting/mana burn combo we can eventually wear them down. They expect me to kill the pet and always heal it religiously. Only when the Hunter is out of mana can I kill the damn thing, and with no mana he has to try and go drink before he can res it. These matches can take 20 minutes apiece.

We didn't face a lot of Mages but it's pretty hard for a mage to successfully Poly me with the way Shamans can interrupt. All in all I really enjoy Warrior/Shaman, as it feels most natural to me. This could be a holdover from my Arathi Basin Warlord Grind days, but I'm a sucker for Windfury and Bloodlust. On another note, yeah, Limewire is a phenomenal PvP Resto Shaman. I was struggling with 3s early in the season due to the Druid at the time being a colossal moron. Somehow we got Limewire in on the team for like an hour or two and went up like 200 points.

Rammie · 03/25/08, 9:12 PM

I've done some stats on the balance on warrior racials and thought people might be interested with the results, also I think some of the values seem off, maybe someone who has done stats more recently can help me.

Out of the top 100 warrior teams according to SK Gaming | World of Warcraft Arena Ranking, I chose 5v5 because that is 'supposedly' the most balanced arena, I may do the others later, and chose EU because this was for my own amusement before I decided to post it on here as I am on EU. The warriors broke down into the races as follows:

Troll	Gnome	Orc	Human	Tauren	Undead	NightElf Dwarf	Draenei
2	8	14	20	28	12	11       5	0

Percentages for warrior total population (p) (Taken from WarcraftRealms.com - WarcraftRealms.com I hope they will be fairly accurate for something so general)

Troll	Gnome	Orc	Human	Tauren	Undead	NightElf  Dwarf	Draenei
0.03	0.05	0.15	0.24	0.16	0.1	0.16	  0.08	0.04

Mean (since this is 100 teams its just the amount of players we expect to observe) (np)

Troll	Gnome	Orc	Human	Tauren	Undead	Night Elf Dwarf	Draenei
3	5	15	24	16	10	16        8	4

Variance (np*(1-p))

Troll	Gnome	Orc	Human	Tauren	Undead	Night Elf Dwarf	Draenei
2.91	4.75	12.75	18.24	13.44	9	13.44	  7.36	3.84

Binom Dist, high suggests being OP, low UP. 0.5 Is expected, not sure how the percentages work out to how OP or UP though.

Troll	        Gnome	        Orc	        Human           Tauren	        Undead	        Night Elf	Dwarf	        Draenei
0.419775083	0.936910409	0.457224206	0.208188351	0.999230904	0.801821113	0.106138316     0.179876442	0.016870319

Im worried these seem to go one way or the other too quickly but I can't see my mistakes if there are any.

Here is the excel sheet if you want to look at the formulae I used:Racials.xls

Edited again to fix only being 99 warriors, I had missed 1 NE somewhere, updated the NE values but the others shouldn't have been affected.

• LodeRunner · 03/25/08, 10:02 PM

I don't know how to read your results. You also might try the {code} tags for formatting but use brackets [ instead of {
In your results are we basing 0.5 as the average of where your data thinks they *should* be versus what is?

Rammie · 03/25/08, 10:27 PM

Thanks, i've updated it with the code feature and clarified that yes 0.5 is expected but im not sure if it's identical to the normal distribution (in which case I believe you would expect to see so many (or so few, ie random variance) taurens only around 0.14% of the times from a sample like this or if I am missing out an evening factor which would make it more likely to see so many.

Angeron · 03/26/08, 2:19 AM

2.4 Update: TRYING TO NOT POST IN ALL CAPS. This is really goddamn exciting, the 2.4 patch makes rshaman/warrior FAR stronger against teams that gave them trouble before (rogue/caster, druid/lock(still hardest druid/x), druid/war(WAY easier), druid/hunter(still tough), lock/spriest(JUST KIDDING STILL IMPOSSIBLE TO WIN THIS ONE), druid/rogue (easy win)). Fought a couple matchs vs. druid/warrior where we just absolutely were getting raped by RNG from imp hamstring and macestuns/800 ms ping on the shaman and instant ghostwolf+toughness allowed us to reset the fight two or three times, allowing me to kill the druid after her 3rd innervate.

As a diehard war/shaman 2v2 player the shaman buffs and druid nerfs feel like a real vindication for my playstyle, it's pretty much a sea-change in how games are played with druids having to be either much more aggressive or much more defensive vs. us in order to even start to have an effect. I haven't played 3s yet in either of my druid/war/x setups but I can't imagine the nerf will have as large an effect on the druid/war synergy as it does in 2s.