So my question is...You get disarmed, and you switch to your sword and board, if you have a weapon chain on your 1 hander, will that change the remaining duration on disarm at all?
No. You'd have to anticipate it and get it out before the Disarm.
Just to anticipate other questions. You can't swap out a weapon while Disarmed anyway. And it still doesn't work even if you're DWing and swap in an OH with a chain.
I think the main problem with Endless Rage is that another warrior team basically has a full reset every minute due to 10s disarm. So every minute the healer is going to get 2-3 full heals off, which will kill you in the mana war.
You can still pummel, intercept and fear while disarmed to stop heals, and it has no effect on your. One thing you can't do while disarmed is keep mortal strike up. Even if you disarm someone right before their MS cooldown comes up, you only get 5 seconds without MS on the target. Sure, if they're not using it on cooldown you might get a full 10 second window without MS, but you also might disarm right after they MS and not get any time with it down. Disarm is more a problem because it significantly reduces your damage output that because it lets them get heals off. If disarm is that big a deal to you, just chain your weapon, or have a weapon swap available for when warriors go defensive near you.
I dislike endless rage not just because I lose weapon mastery, but because of that combined with losing sweeping strikes and having to choose between enrage and tactical mastery.
I had some trouble last week, in 2v2, with my Druid+Warrior team vs Druid+Hunter.
We played one Druid/Hunter team a couple times where they managed to keep me CCed for almsot the entire match, eventually winning once my druid was OOM. The hunter would Scatter shot me, put a frost trap right under me, and then when the scatter shot ends I am trapped for 10 seconds. When that was over the druid would cyclone me twice, and then a bit late the hunter would repeat the scatter shot/trap.
I had some trouble last week, in 2v2, with my Druid+Warrior team vs Druid+Hunter.
We played one Druid/Hunter team a couple times where they managed to keep me CCed for almsot the entire match, eventually winning once my druid was OOM. The hunter would Scatter shot me, put a frost trap right under me, and then when the scatter shot ends I am trapped for 10 seconds. When that was over the druid would cyclone me twice, and then a bit late the hunter would repeat the scatter shot/trap.
What can I do against this?
Basics are to Taunt/Mocking Blow pets to break Hunter CC and Spell Reflect any Cyclone you can. Standard interrupts apply if you can stay in range or LOS of the Druid. A Spell Alert mod and quick reflexes (focus macros can make it easier) should let you Intercept most important casts.
You're Fury at the moment so I'm not sure if you're using TM in your PVP build but it helps a lot. You can also have your Druid cyclone the other Druid offensively when you're expecting some incoming CC.
I'd also suggest to keep in good contact with your druid about where/when the hunter is trapping, then simply have your druid bear up and eat the trap for you.
other scary comp I'd like to mention is Feral Druid/Rogue, as they put out some amazing burst on the shaman.
So what are the real hard counters to this comp? Or have we just been playing really sub-par teams.
The real hard counters are Rogue/Mage and Shadow Priest/Warlock. A few other match-ups are really hard at high levels, but all winnable with proper play/execution.
It's all about timing out the hunter's cooldowns. If you use antagonist or something like that which tracks player cooldowns you keep 100% track of his scatter shot. When scatter shot comes off cooldown you are going to be trapped within a few seconds. Get your druid in bear form ontop of you and you have a good chance that he will take the trap effect. That is pretty much the only way you have around it. Another viable option is to taunt the pet at any opportunity and hope that he will either stick on you at the exact moment of the CC and break it or that he has auto poison application and will dot you to break the trap. Other then that you can use the trap downtime to do stuff like smash your face against the keyboard because thats pretty much all you can do.
I'm trying to break 1850, I ran with a Pally, and the highest we've been is 1800. I feel like our game has improved a lot, but there is still a wall.
What do you do against Priest/Warlock? Shadow Priest/Rogue? How does your pally deal with chain CC? When they nuke the pally, we're fine. But when they CC the pally and nuke me...not so much.
I'm trying to break 1850, I ran with a Pally, and the highest we've been is 1800. I feel like our game has improved a lot, but there is still a wall.
What do you do against Priest/Warlock? Shadow Priest/Rogue? How does your pally deal with chain CC? When they nuke the pally, we're fine. But when they CC the pally and nuke me...not so much.
Kill pets against priest/warlock. Start on the warlock and have the pally looking for opportunities to drag the pet to a starting area while he's dodging burns. Once it's there with half health you can intercept/intervene and he can throw a fear on the pet and a hammer on the priest and you'll be able to kill it easily (pally should help DPS too) With no pet and 5 sunders on the warlock the priest won't be able to keep the warlock alive.
Just about anything with a rogue is going to be tough, any spec priest/rogue being one of the worst comps we've found. I think the idea is to switch off to whoever you can hit at the time and try and get some key reflects if it's a shadow priest.
Inform your dealers and whores of my credit, and pour me a goddamned drink!
It's all about timing out the hunter's cooldowns. If you use antagonist or something like that which tracks player cooldowns you keep 100% track of his scatter shot. When scatter shot comes off cooldown you are going to be trapped within a few seconds. Get your druid in bear form ontop of you and you have a good chance that he will take the trap effect. That is pretty much the only way you have around it. Another viable option is to taunt the pet at any opportunity and hope that he will either stick on you at the exact moment of the CC and break it or that he has auto poison application and will dot you to break the trap. Other then that you can use the trap downtime to do stuff like smash your face against the keyboard because thats pretty much all you can do.
You're druid should be eating most of the traps. A lot of this match depends on you killing the pet and your druid keeping the hunter within your reach. Even if you're having a hard time killing the pet it's much more taxing on both the hunter and opposing druid's mana to heal the pet than it is to heal the hunter. It also gives their druid much less down time to drink. Even if you aren't killing the pet I can guarantee if you druid is LoSing properly the hunter will recall his pet til it's at a good level again. This gives your druid time to drink.
If the druid is eating traps (this can be kind of a crap shoot at times) the only CC that should really be of concern is Cyclone. Your druid should have their druid on Focus of course, not really to interrupt CC's so much but to watch what CC is being cast on you and feral charging -> CC'ing the hunter in turn to keep him close to the you. Especially if your being rooted instead of cycloned.
Just make sure you don't try to get cute and just switch to the druid because you're mad he's making it difficult to kill the pet. The hunter will start laying into you and force your druid to shift out of bear to heal and most likely eat more Vipers than he'd like to. Cyclone costs a decent amount of mana. Make their druid heal and cast Cyclone the entire match and you will win. Even though it's annoying being Cycloned right when a pet gets into execute range. You will need some help from your druid in the form of Eating traps, rooting, feral charging, and bashing the hunter to keep him close to you.
Not sure why you quoted me or why you chose to just reiterate a lot of what I said but whatever since we are apparently having a conversation:
If the two of you are behind a pillar with the pet the hunter should be aware and ready for a possible 4 taunt chain from the druid warrior team, a warrior going with his druid behind a hunter should automatically kick in instinct that tells the hunter to pull the pet back and if he hasn't he's terrible. It takes 6 seconds to drop combat and then another 4 of drinking for the drink ticks to take effect, total 10 seconds. If the hunter nor druid can't reach you within 10 seconds to stop a drink after the pet has been pulled back chances are you were going to win anyway. Meanwhile the other druid will be drinking freely the whole match even if the warrior sits on his hunter because the warrior's druid must be playing defensively to protect his mana which is at a premium to him. The warrior's druid will get about 1.5-2 mana bars during the match depending on arcane shot rng and his ability to LOS where the hunter's druid will get anywhere from 2 to infinite amount of mana bars during the fight lessening the value of his mana, meaning he is much freer to do those cyclones and roots (interesting why you say cyclone is the only important CC, where-as root is easily two times more devastating. Yes it will proc second wind on your warrior but it also means an aimed shot is forthcoming where cyclone will at the least make it more difficult for the hunter to aimed shot, skilled teams will still time it out obviously). The only time the warrior/druid team can make a move is if the warriors fear, trinket, and deathwish are all off cooldown and the druid eats a trap to have the warrior trinket the following druid's cc followed by a feral charge onto the next CC to put high pressure onto the hunter. If you can get the druid feared, moderately hard for a warrior due to the fairly short range of the fear and the fact that druids like to keep their distance, during that combination the hunter can possibly die. This is pretty risky though because if you fail the druid will probably use up a good chunk of his mana, may eat a sting or will at least be forced to keep abolish up constantly which is costly, and it also puts your druid in prime position to get aimed shot and unloaded on for a moment by the hunter, thus draining even more mana by means of having to heal. Mana which has no realistic way of being replenished consistently. Another fail point would be the hunter parrying or dodging a mortal strike during the burst (a decent possibility given hunter's avoidence with monkey aspect up) and the druid having NS up. Meanwhile the hunter/druid combination need only to continue doing what they have been doing for the duration of the match to win over time.
The game is stacked in their favor from the outset not because hunters out-class warriors but because hunters and their pets out class druids when they are the only targets (ie: 2v2 arena). Basically what I'm saying is killing the pet will be nothing short of impossible, if at worst case a minor annoyance to the hunter, versus an above average team and if they are below average you don't need tactics to win anyway. Killing the pet cannot always guarantee victory either as once the pet is dead it becomes a gimped warrior versus hunter duel with two healers who will never run oom and the pet rez is only 4 seconds of CC away.
I meant to quote the original question, not you Bula. Accidental.
But just to reiterate what I mean about roots not being a major concern.
If your druid has the hunter's druid as his focus and watches his cast bar it will be easy enough for him to feral charge -> root (or bash -> root, or even just root or cyclone) the other teams hunter keeping him parked near the warrior.
It's important to note however that I am an extremely aggressive druid and find, for me, in the 1900-2k bracket that my 2's team hovers in that this is the best option.
But I think you are grossly overestimating how easy it is to keep the pet alive while CCing and drinking. Also forcing the Hunter to rez his pet is a huge boon for the druid/warrior. It costs him a very non consequential amount of mana, forces him to stand still for 4 seconds while the warrior and druid train his druid, and rezzes a pet that needs immediate attention lest it be instantly killed again.
I agree with most of your points, especially that the difference between a good/great hunter and a mediocre one is much greater than mostly any other class aside from perhaps rogues, I merely posted the method I've seen the greatest success with.
Matchups are definitely winnable, except perhaps double rogue when they get the jump on your druid (which is hard to stop when they have 90 seconds to find him).
Specifics:
Mage/Rogue:
Pillar hump. If you aren't near a pillar, you lose. Get on the mage at the start, coordinate with your druid so when he pops out to heal you he's near a pillar. The mage will try to poly you and kidney shot/shatter combo the druid.
You can take down a rogue extremely fast if he doesn't have heals and the mage can't control you. Expect the rogue to run to the mage. Stay with your druid until you're both topped off then hop back on something. When the rogue dies you win.
Spriest/Rogue:
Don't let the spriest fear your druid. They're going to try to kill you by CC'ing your druid. If you stop the fear-blind combo, you'll eventually win. If you're super pro you may even be able to intervene a blind if you fail at keeping the priest from fearing.
Spam hamstring, blow deathwish right off the bat (you don't want to get seperated by even an inch) and blow your trinket if the priest does to break hamstring. Intercept after kidneys, and/or use your AOE fear to momentarily stop the priest from getting farther away (rogue will have FW).
Warlock/Rogue:
Uh. Sit on the warlock? Like an easy spriest/rogue. Pummel fears, don't get kited. Probably will need to trinket either kidney or death coil to stop a fear at some point, although I suppose a good rogue/lock could chain them to get a fear off on your druid. Don't be afraid to turtle if this happens, and stay in range of your druid so he can heal you right after. Don't LOS your druid to chase the warlock.
If you're super pro you may even be able to intervene a blind if you fail at keeping the priest from fearing.
You can't intervene blind anymore sadly. Three times this week blind hit my druid while the intervene buff was up and it didn't do anything at all to stop it. Seems like it was changed in the last week or two.
You can't intervene blind anymore sadly. Three times this week blind hit my druid while the intervene buff was up and it didn't do anything at all to stop it. Seems like it was changed in the last week or two.
Were you still next to him? Intervene only takes the hit if you're still close.
Warrior/Druid has a relatively easy match-up versus most double DPS teams, other than SPriest/Warlock and Mage/Rogue played perfectly.
Against Hunter/Druid, you really shouldn't forget that the Hunter is on a very low, finite mana pool as well. Since the burst he delivers won't be able to kill anyone, you're never really under a threat of dying before he invariably goes out of mana. Killing the pet is more important for the fact that it costs him a good chunk to revive (because believe me, with that much CC they will get the res pet off).
If you keep grinding away at the Hunter while LOSing his main attacks, it's really very easy to run both of them out of mana. Entangling Roots is better than Cyclone because you get Wind and it gives you a chance to refresh Shouts while switching to a Sword and Shield. I think trying fancy moves like Spell Reflecting Freezing Trap are impractical. A lot of Hunters use Frost Trap, Freezing Trap generally follows up a Scatter Shot, and you'll often have 80 or 90 rage that you lose for swapping to D/Battle Stance. You also lose two Globals swapping weapons. Even reflecting a Cyclone, unless you're setting up a kill, is impractical. He'll get the next one up within six seconds, or good ones will r1 Moonfire and Cyclone you anyways, and you'll be in a full six second lock with no rage against a Hunter that can kite you. He can also shift out of a roots while you waste 50+ rage and 3 or more seconds on your global. Save your reflect for his Nature's Grasp while trying to kite you, or an easily telegraphed Freezing Trap you may suspect.
Also, I've played a Hunter alt so I know their Scatter Shot/Trap is both on a timer and has a distance requirement. The latter is very important because a good Warrior should be able to kill or seriously wound (burn cooldowns) of a Druid without peels. Someone alluded to the gap between great and mediocre Hunters, which I fully agree with. Most Hunters from 1500-2100 aren't religious about peeling their Druid with Concussive/Scatter and such. So if you're good at sticking to a Druid and they haven't maintained ideal distances/positioning, you can certainly quick swap over and force cooldowns/mana.
If a Druid can kite you without cooldowns and without peels from his partner, you obviously have no chance though.
Hi, I just hit 70 on my warrior and the problem is that i am very new to pvp my current rating 2v2 is 1250 with a holy paladin, we both have full vinidcators+season1 and weapons, 1560AP, 60Hit, 32.91%crit in ber stance i would like to know which step i should start with like charge or intercept than hamstring? i tryed intercept when i was in combat than hamstring, mortal strike, hamstring, anything else im missing?
First you need to cap your hit to 80...and secondly, that sounds like you have a very very rudimentary understanding of Warrior PVP (or maybe just PVP in general). I would start studying PVP videos and just practice PVP'ing a lot before you come to EJ and post. No offense, but there isn't much we can do to help you. This forum is mostly for people who already know what to do and need advice with certain situations.
Hi, I just hit 70 on my warrior and the problem is that i am very new to pvp my current rating 2v2 is 1250 with a holy paladin, we both have full vinidcators+season1 and weapons, 1560AP, 60Hit, 32.91%crit in ber stance i would like to know which step i should start with like charge or intercept than hamstring? i tryed intercept when i was in combat than hamstring, mortal strike, hamstring, anything else im missing?
I've been a 60 since late January of 05 and I am still learning stuff all the time. I would suggest just pvp'ing more before trying to get advice about the minutia involved in specific war\xxx encounters.
Hm, I am wondering how many of you are using [Shattered Sun Pendant of Might]? I hited exalted with Shattered Sun Offensive today and testing this neck in duels/Bgs at the moment. So far I am content with proc rate (I'm aldor - 200AP buff for 10s), but still don't know if it's worthy to wear it in arena. I checked Grim13 spreadsheet and I'm not impressed, if proc is calculated properly. Oh, I'm playing mostly 2v2 with shaman, if it matters, and 2 heal 3v3 sometimes.
Any suggestions? Usualy wearing full pvp set, sometimes using ROS boots and Winterchill bracers..
The pendant isn't really enough of an upgrade to replace Vindicator's or Guardian's, especially considering the possibility of proc uptime not matching up with actual dps uptime. Choker of Serrated Blades is worth checking out, but that's about it.
Hm, I am wondering how many of you are using [Shattered Sun Pendant of Might]? I hited exalted with Shattered Sun Offensive today and testing this neck in duels/Bgs at the moment. So far I am content with proc rate (I'm aldor - 200AP buff for 10s), but still don't know if it's worthy to wear it in arena. I checked Grim13 spreadsheet and I'm not impressed, if proc is calculated properly. Oh, I'm playing mostly 2v2 with shaman, if it matters, and 2 heal 3v3 sometimes.
Any suggestions? Usualy wearing full pvp set, sometimes using ROS boots and Winterchill bracers..
In PVP? I'm thinking no. It would help in PVE with a prolonged period of DPS, but in what are usually fairly short matches (except against the occasional hunter/druid) it would be too unreliable to be worth it IMO. That's where Unraveller trinket (which scales in PVE quite well) falls short as well.
Hm yea, realized that now after saw too many procs right before i was CCed. And for PvE Choker of Serrated Blades is better...I guess I'll have to vendor it. At least tabard is sweet:p
I would first like to say that i have been an avid reader of the JERKS forums since i first hit 70 a little over a year ago and i contribute allot of my knowledge obtained in this game (namely with tanking mechanics and gear requirements for raiding) to have come from the excellent posts and theory that i have found on this site. This is my first post here and i have read the doe's and dont's about posting here and i have seen many people post in this thread get slammed for asking stupid questions about gearing and specs. I also know that that you all hate it when people post that kind of drivel as well.
I have spent about 5 hours reading off and on through the 62 pages of this thread (which seems to have started preTBC) and i cant seem to find an answer to my current dilemma. So here goes;
I have been a tank since i hit 70 and during that time i have managed to acquire some PVE type warrior dps gear and I have done some BG honor grinds and picked up a few pieces of pvp gear as well. Here recently my raiding has pretty much petered out due to lack of interest in running the same 10 mans over and over and farming the same 25 mans when on the once a month occasion we do have 25 people online. So i decided to make an earnest effort and form up a 5v5 team and try my hand at arena. I must say that it is allot of fun and very different compared to raiding the same bosses over and over. My first real week at trying it out was last week and we did fairly well with our MS Warrior / MS Warrior / Heal Pally / Heal Pally / Ice Mage group, ended at 8 wins and 2 losses.
I am wanting to maximize my dps, or help my arena team in the best way i can with whatever weapon choice is wiser for my team composition and I am unsure about the weapon i need to be using. We are striving for a rating that will eventually net us some s3 gear (s4 would be nice but i am skeptical on getting there, if ever). My professions are Miner / Enchanter so i cant craft anything, thus limiting my options to using the gorehowl i have now, or purchasing the s2 two-handed mace, or the s2 two-handed sword for honor, when s4 goes live on the 24th?
Like i stated earlier i have read through a good majority of this thread (not all as there are times throughout it where newb's come in and ask dumb questions or when arguments start and i just skip through those parts) and i can't really find the best answer for my dilemma. i realize my problem might seem to be a newb's plea for someone to tell me what the ultimate weapon of choice for arena MS warriors is, but really it I am just trying to find some concrete data that will support one or the other as the better choice for my team comp and current gearing; 2h sword? 2h mace? or 2h axe?
05/14/08, 4:42 PM
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